New Light & Medium Duty News

[RichardJensen]

Richard- Give me a break! The article was directed at the likely shake up in class 6/7 as a result of Navistar's loss of the Ford volume. Did I say anything about class 8 sleepers? compact trucks? No! Someone does a post and says the guy is blowing smoke. I agree. From your perspective I guess a marketing guy is entiltled to spout pure bullshit??

 

Credibility Richard. I guess from your foxhole a "marketing guy" who interviews for a major business publication is not responsible for anything he says. IMO if you are a spokesman for your company, you should not be saying anything that damages your personal credibility or your employers.

 

 

You're blowing this way out of proportion. This guy wasn't giving a sworn deposition in a civil lawsuit, he was giving an interview in which his JOB was to build up excitement for Ford's new range. You do that by saying things like, "we're not taking a backseat to anybody", not by saying, "well, we're not initially targeting highly specialized body-builders that serve niche markets because we find that those manufacturers tend to be pretty tightly integrated with existing suppliers, and targeting entrenched business relationships in the early going is not the most productive use of our marketing resources."

[jpd80]

Let's read what the article says:

"We're going to be everywhere in the market," said Todd Kaufman, director of F-series truck marketing at Ford. "We're not going to take a back seat to anybody" in the truck market.

He said the company intends to market its new trucks to the same truck and rental fleet operators courted by Navistar and others. To ease apprehension about trying the new designs, Ford plans to offer a five-year, 250,000-mile warranty on engines and transmissions, about double the industry's standard warranty. Ford intends to control costs by sharing cab components from its F-350 and F-450 pickup trucks.

 

[Bob Rosadini]

Okay, I surrender, you guys are right. I've adjusted my rose colored glasses. Last comment:

 

Kaufman's comment....."We're going to be everywhere in the market," said Todd Kaufman, director of F-series truck marketing at Ford. "We're not going to take a back seat to anybody" in the truck market.

 

I think what I would have said would be....." We are going to be everywhere in the market where our approach to offering an integrated, internally produced power train, that can be serviced by our entire dealer network, will offer customers the most cost effective product backed by a 5 year, 250,000 mile power train warranty."

[RichardJensen]

That, Bob, is why you have no future in marketing.

 

Feel free to take that as a complement.

[jpd80]

Marketing people have the unusual knack of being able to say less and make it seem like more than it is.

[Bob Rosadini]

That, Bob, is why you have no future in marketing.

 

Feel free to take that as a complement.

Thank you Richard I do.

[lfeg]

I see the engine ratings are out for the F650 / 750. http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140521/AUTO0102/305210098/0/auto01/Ford-s-F-650-F-750-trucks-won-t-restrictions-power

 

V10 is 330 horsepower and 440 pound-feet of torque

 

Prowestroke has 3 ratings -

270 horsepower and 675 pound-feet of torque; 300 horsepower and 700 pound-feet; and 330 horsepower and 725 pound-feet

[theoldwizard]

Impressive numbers on the diesel.

 

Keep hoping they are going to do something for the petrol/gaseous fuel crowd !

[Bob Rosadini]

Impressive numbers on the diesel.

 

Keep hoping they are going to do something for the petrol/gaseous fuel crowd !

And it appears they realistically have derated. Isn't the 250-550 advertised at 800 ft lbs.??

 

Now if they will just get rid of the marketing person who insists on referring to 'tractors" that do "towing" and post a GCW rating for the tractor, we might start getting some credibility with the fleet professionals.

[lfeg]

All they really need to do is move a few words around - A version specifically made for towing semitrailers, the tractor version.

 

But at least they have competetive power ratings. When they list the rpms the various ratings are at it would be interesting to compare the rear wheel torque of the V10 versus the Powerstroke, as the V10 max torque will be at a higher rpm than the Powerstroke. With the right axle ratio rear wheel torques may be closer than many expect.

[SoonerLS]

And it appears they realistically have derated. Isn't the 250-550 advertised at 800 ft lbs.??

The '15 SuperDuty specs show 440hp@2800RPM and 860ft-lbs@1600RPM.

[SoonerLS]

But at least they have competetive power ratings. When they list the rpms the various ratings are at it would be interesting to compare the rear wheel torque of the V10 versus the Powerstroke, as the V10 max torque will be at a higher rpm than the Powerstroke. With the right axle ratio rear wheel torques may be closer than many expect.

The V10 isn't listed for the SuperDuties (they only show the 6.2 and the Scorpion for '15), but the E-Series shows 420ft-lbs@3,250RPM for the 6.8 gasser.

Edited May 22, 2014 by SoonerLS

[Bob Rosadini]

The '15 SuperDuty specs show 440hp@2800RPM and 860ft-lbs@1600RPM.

Thx- Scary!

[Bob Rosadini]

All they really need to do is move a few words around - A version specifically made for towing semitrailers, the tractor version.

 

But at least they have competetive power ratings. When they list the rpms the various ratings are at it would be interesting to compare the rear wheel torque of the V10 versus the Powerstroke, as the V10 max torque will be at a higher rpm than the Powerstroke. With the right axle ratio rear wheel torques may be closer than many expect.

I don't know Ifeg- Bottom line in a truck as I see it, you want torque on the low end. It is what gets the load moving. Plus when climbing a grade, as speed drops, and RPM's drop, you want that torque in the lower RPM band- that is what enables you to top the grade at lower RPMs in a higher gear, vs. dropping being forced to drop a gear and cresting the grade at higher RPMs.

 

As I see it kind of tough to balance economy when peak torque is at a high RPM range. If you try to compensate the high RPM range with a lower numerical axle, don't you end up with a top speed that you really don't want?

[lfeg]

Yes, I agree to a point Bob. But if you have two engines such as the V10 and Powerstroke that have torque peaks at quite different RPMs and different max rpm limits, you can equalize things with proper axle ratio selection. Especially in the case of the V10 when operated on natural gas with its lower cost per BTU.

 

As I do not know the specifics on the ratings for the F650 / 750, an abstract example: you set up a box truck for local delivery. Engine 1 is a diesel with 750 lb-ft of torque @1800 rpm and rev limited at 2800 rpm. Engine 2 is gas with 400 lb-ft of torque @3000 rpm and rev limited to 4400 rpm.

 

Both get the same transmission and same tires at rolling radius of 20", Engine 1 has an overall final drive ratio of 4.10 in top gear. Engine 2 has an overall final drive ratio of 6.83 in top gear. You are cruising at 70 mph heading north on I 89 out of White River Junction and hit the first substantial grade where you need max torque while holding it in top gear. Engine 1 will give you peak torque when you drop to 52 mph. So will engine 2. The trick is to see what the brake specific fuel consumption is for each engine at those operating conditions and factor in fuel cost. Now, with those drivelines, engine 1 will give you a top end of 81 mph versus 76 mph for engine 2, but both of speeds are over the tire ratings.

 

For the Fords, we know the Powerstroke is a smooth engine at those speeds. We also know, based on use in the F450/550 and E Series that the V10 will run smoothly and reliably for miles on end at its ratings. So, properly speced you do not really give anything up if you want to use a lower cost fuel. I see it as a win/win for the users.

[twintornados]

You are not considering advances in engine computer controls that can be tailored to have the engine "peak perform" at any specified level....

[lfeg]

Computer controls cannot move a peak to where it cannot be. Pressure charged engines will have a torque peak at a different rpm than naturally aspirated. So the V10 will always have its peak at a higher rpm than the powerstroke. You just have to spec the driveline to take advantage of the engine's characteristics.

[theoldwizard]

Both get the same transmission and same tires at rolling radius of 20", Engine 1 has an overall final drive ratio of 4.10 in top gear. Engine 2 has an overall final drive ratio of 6.83 in top gear. You are cruising at 70 mph heading north on I 89 out of White River Junction and hit the first substantial grade where you need max torque while holding it in top gear. Engine 1 will give you peak torque when you drop to 52 mph. So will engine 2. The trick is to see what the brake specific fuel consumption is for each engine at those operating conditions and factor in fuel cost. Now, with those drivelines, engine 1 will give you a top end of 81 mph versus 76 mph for engine 2, but both of speeds are over the tire ratings.

Interesting analysis.

 

My gut tells me that very few loaded V10 F750 will be pushed to 70 mph or beyond, except maybe downhill, with a tail wind. I think most states (theoretically) have truck speed limits of 55-60 mph anyway, certainly in suburban areas.

 

What is the engine rpm at 70 mph with a 4.10 and a 6.83 ? How about at 60 mph ?

 

Performance of the 6 speed transmission (selecting the proper gear and getting it engaged quickly) will have a big impact on the "driveability" of a loaded V10 F750 especially in suburban traffic.

 

The big win on gassers is lower initial cost and lower maintenance costs (does the diesel require urea at these weight classes?).

 

 

 

WILD IDEA ! Add a turbocharger and water/methanol injection to the V10, but use the the trick electric motor/alternator setup on the turbo that they have in F1 racing !! This would require a fairly small battery and you could market it as the only medium duty hybrid truck !!

Edited May 23, 2014 by theoldwizard

[RichardJensen]

I think most states (theoretically) have truck speed limits of 55-60 mph anyway, certainly in suburban areas.

 

Truck speed limits = car speed limits in just about every state I've been in.

[SoonerLS]

Truck speed limits = car speed limits in just about every state I've been in.

They are the same here in Oklahoma, but Texas has lower speed limits for trucks, at least in some areas. The truck limit was lower on I35 south of the Red River, but it has been over a year since I've been down thataway. They also have different nighttime speed limits.

 

Edit: According to this site ( http://www.truckercountry.com/speed-limits.html ), eight states have different truck and car limits, but there are five (Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, and Virginia) where it's not clear. As noted above, Oklahoma doesn't have different posted speed limits (statutory limits may be different) for trucks, but Texas does.

Edited May 23, 2014 by SoonerLS

[Joe771476]

Some updated numbers: The gap has narrowed between Ford and Ram in class 3 thru 7. Now I know Ram isn't in

6 & 7, but still the fact remains that the difference in Jan to March 2013 sales was about 4000 units, Jan to March 2014 difference is only about 1600 units. Another intriguing statement from Ford is that they're predicting annual industry sale rate of 16.5 million units, including 200,000 medium AND heavy-duty trucks. I find it VEEEEERRRRY interesting they're making predictions on HEAVIES! Freightliner's Jan 2014 class 5 sales jumped almost 7 fold over Jan 2013, from 50 units to 379. If they want to go down market, let Ford go up! Let the games begin!

Edited May 23, 2014 by Joe771476

[RichardJensen]

Texas has lower speed limits for trucks, at least in some areas.

 

I believe there are a few places in SD with lower truck limits, but that's due to road conditions, not as a matter of policy.

[SoonerLS]

I believe there are a few places in SD with lower truck limits, but that's due to road conditions, not as a matter of policy.

I35 from the Red River to DFW is in excellent condition and well-banked with broad shoulders, so I don't think that's the issue. (From DFW to Austin I spent too much of my time thinking "are these batsh*t fruitcake nut jobs escapees from Chicago?" to notice if the truck limits were different. )

[old_fairmont_wagon]

There are a few places in Louisiana that have different speed limits for heavy trucks and cars. The most significant if the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge (I-10, between Baton Rouge and Lafayette). Heavy trucks are limited to 55 mph and cars are limited to 60. This is largely due to several multi-car fatal accidents in low visibility (fog) situations caused when a small accident stopped traffic and a semi traveling at near 80 mph wasn't able to stop in time upon coming upon the rear of the line of stopped cars.

[Mad Hatter]

They are the same here in Oklahoma, but Texas has lower speed limits for trucks, at least in some areas. The truck limit was lower on I35 south of the Red River, but it has been over a year since I've been down thataway. They also have different nighttime speed limits.

 

Edit: According to this site ( http://www.truckercountry.com/speed-limits.html ), eight states have different truck and car limits, but there are five (Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, and Virginia) where it's not clear. As noted above, Oklahoma doesn't have different posted speed limits (statutory limits may be different) for trucks, but Texas does.

 

 

 

It was like that. Truck speed limits were changed back a a few years ago. IDK about toll roads speeds since I live so far away from any, nor municipal limits since I'm in a rural area. But I know there's an 80 MPH limit on IH-10 for quite a ways. There is a toll road with an 85 MPH limit, but again IDK if that's for trucks, also. Speeds are the same, day/night.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Mad Hatter