New Light & Medium Duty News

[twintornados]

Ah yes, the Page and Page "poor mans tandem". Not too many remember that there were belt drives on some tandems. As to the 6x2 configuration, I think we are going to be seeing some creativity on the highways over the next few years. The LTL carriers ars looking to squeeze out every penney from operating expenses they can. And with the federal mandates in class 8 fuel economy, that little bit of efficiency gained from switching from true tandem to a live/dead setup can help. Makes me wonder if someone might be working on an air or electricly shifted power divider so that true tandem is available when needed and single drive can be used for an easy cruise.

You mean like this?

Dual disconnect system

[theoldwizard]

Ah yes, the Page and Page "poor mans tandem". Not too many remember that there were belt drives on some tandems.

I would love to see a picture/diagram of that !

 

As to the 6x2 configuration, I think we are going to be seeing some creativity on the highways over the next few years. The LTL carriers are looking to squeeze out every penney from operating expenses they can. And with the federal mandates in class 8 fuel economy, that little bit of efficiency gained from switching from true tandem to a live/dead setup can help. Makes me wonder if someone might be working on an air or electrically shifted power divider so that true tandem is available when needed and single drive can be used for an easy cruise.

Again, showing my ignorance, what is the big advantage of a 6x4 over a 6x2 on dry pavement ? I can see in rain/snow it would be a big bonus.

[lfeg]

I would love to see a picture/diagram of that !

 

The Ford parts books that cover the trucks in 57 to mid 60s era have a very good diagram of the Page and Page. I do not have mine handy right now though. They show all of the related parts and list Ford part numbers. It would be interesting if any of those part numbers are still available.

[lfeg]

Again, showing my ignorance, what is the big advantage of a 6x4 over a 6x2 on dry pavement ? I can see in rain/snow it would be a big bonus.

 

Better traction / handling in low friction conditions and on dirt/gravel road surfaces. I am told that true tandems give better stability on a dry raod, but I cannot verify that. One thing to keep in mind, drivers like the familiar. Bob R and 7Mary3 will know more than I.

[lfeg]

You mean like this?

Dual disconnect system

 

Yes, but for something to be accepted in any but speciality markets it must come in with simplicity, durability, be compact, eliminate associated parasitic losses, and be low cost.

[Bob Rosadini]

 

Yes, but for something to be accepted in any but speciality markets it must come in with simplicity, durability, be compact, eliminate associated parasitic losses, and be low cost.

Amen on all points. Note the date on that patent. I would have to bet that when you look at what such an arrangement would have in terms of first cost, the payback would be very extended. Plus with todays synthetic gear lubes you have another very slight advantage working for a conventional "live" tandem.

 

As to Wiz' comment on dry vs wet road, I've never driven a "dead" tandem but I would have to agree that I would think a live tandem would give bit more "feel".

 

All things considered, I would have to agree in the quest to lower maintenance cost and increase payloads, we will see more use of a dead axle vs. a live tandem.

 

Another interesting point, look at the use of these long wheelbase dump truck chassis with two or three additional axles utilizing small wheel sizes in addition to the tandem drive axles. Here in the Northeast, triaxle dumps prevail (other than heavy ten wheelers that spend a lot of time off road in true site developement jobs) But if the application involves hauling asphalt or aggregates over the road , triaxles rule-again a triaxle is a true tandem with an air suspended dead third axle to maximize permitted gvw.

 

Those "centipede" rigs I mentioned with two or three additional axles are not used up here.-7M3 would have another perspective on other unique "boost-a load" schemes that are popular in Calif.

[Joe771476]

Bob, some long fancy custom tractors have water pumps as well, but the basic Freightliner FL70 tractor would only need a hydraulic pump. The use of long flexible hoses sends the fluid to the trailer section for the ladder raising and outrigger operations. It would seem to me that it wouldn't need too powerful an engine to haul the trailer to the scene and then pump the fluid in PTO mode upon arrival and setup. What do you think?

[Bob Rosadini]

Bob, some long fancy custom tractors have water pumps as well, but the basic Freightliner FL70 tractor would only need a hydraulic pump. The use of long flexible hoses sends the fluid to the trailer section for the ladder raising and outrigger operations. It would seem to me that it wouldn't need too powerful an engine to haul the trailer to the scene and then pump the fluid in PTO mode upon arrival and setup. What do you think?

Understood Joe on the hydraulic pump for the ladder/outriggers. but my original question, what does one of those ladders weigh? we are talking about 100' or more? You might be right but then do you need a crew type cab for the SCBA equipment? I'm thinking that is a very specialized application-and what's the market?

 

Now if you want to stick to the subject of fire trucks, I would think the 650/750 could do well in the "quick attack" (Wildlands???) market. My town has an article on upcoming town meeting-$545,000 for an all wheel drive pumper. Supposedly we have a lot of houses in town that are on long unpaved common driveways. Could we have a "big one" during a heavy snow fall on one of these drives? Yes-but do you cover every contingency? I say a smaller quick attack vehicle would be far more practical-responding to car fires, small structure fires, brush fires etc.

 

By the way we have a 1980's vintage International S series. All wheel drive- DT-466. Bullet proof. But guess what- it has a clutch pedal-and not enough of the young guys can drive it!

[Joe771476]

For the life of me I can't scrape up one pic of a regular everyday Freightliner FL70 tractor hauling a tiller, but Ive seen them in fire truck trading mags. No compartments, no water pumps. When I was in New York I could have sworn I saw a basic Ford Cargo tractor hauling a tiller, but maybe it was just a rescue trailer like this in the link below. And I couldn't find a real pic, so I'm settling for this awesome pic of a MODEL!

 

 

AOL Image Search result for "http://www.1-87vehicles.org/images/Fire/ford_cargo_fdny_collapse_lg.jpg"

[lfeg]

Nice model. But fire and rescue apparatus is a speciality niche that I do not see Ford chasing. Sure, a few suppliers/bodybuilders will put brush bodies and small pumpers on a Ford cab and chassis, but I do not see that in Ford's plans. Box trucks, stake bodies, light tractors looks to be their market intent. And that is the heart of the market.

[twintornados]

Fords' market intent is to sell medium duty trucks at a decent profit....if the upfitters find that Fords' efforts to address their upfitting concerns can be solved through standardization of common issues...then Ford will sell more trucks and the profits will continue to flow...

[Joe771476]

You might be right Ifeg, but I would suspect that if you have enough departments with some kind of Ford fire apparatus in the bays, it will cascade into Ford pickup truck purchases by the the firefighters. The ubiquitous Ford C-series was the darling of the fire truck industry for 35 years! Ford didn't have to chase for those sales; the departments -- and the body mfrs. themselves -- came running to Ford!

[Bob Rosadini]

Article from yesterday's WSJ:

 

Wall Street Journal / May 12, 2014

 

Commercial Truck Maker Has Big Hole to Patch in Medium Truck Sales

What happens when one of a company's biggest customers becomes one of its biggest rivals?

Navistar International Corp., a Lisle, Ill., commercial truck maker, is about to find out. For the past 13 years, Navistar built Ford Motor Co.'s F-650 and F-750 commercial trucks, an approximately $400 million-a-year business. Beginning next year, Ford plans to start making the $55,600-and-up vehicles itself, cutting out Navistar.

Chief Executive Troy Clarke plans to patch the hole in production and revenue by chasing high-volume, medium-truck buyers such as big rental companies, municipalities and distributors. His idea: offer customers a wider variety of engine brands and transmissions, allowing them to customize trucks to their specific needs. He is pressing Navistar's dealers to emphasize the $10.5 billion company's single focus on commercial trucks.

Trying to hold on to customers in the medium-size truck business is one more hurdle for Mr. Clarke, who became CEO after his predecessor's costly detour into building pollution-control systems for the firm's truck engines collapsed and Navistar was forced to abandon the effort. To win customers back, Navistar is offering engines made by Cummins Inc. and the same exhaust treatment system the rest of the industry uses. Navistar previously had offered only its own engines in its trucks.

"We are recovering our share, but we have more work to do," said Mr. Clarke, a former General Motors Co. executive who was appointed CEO in March 2013. The company has been losing money for more than a year, and posted a $248 million loss for its fiscal first quarter on $2.2 billion in sales.

Besides the troubles with its heavy-duty trucks, Navistar also has been losing market share for medium-duty trucks, or those that can carry up to 33,000 pounds. Its DuraStar and WorkStar trucks now account for about 26% of the North American medium-duty market, but that share is down from nearly 36% in 2011.

Medium-duty trucks are used as the underpinnings for many delivery vehicles, dump trucks, recreational vehicles and school buses. Market forecaster John Stark in Chicago called Ford's March decision to build its own vehicles a "real threat" to Navistar. "Ford has made all the investments to be a serious player in the market," he said.

Dearborn, Mich.-based Ford's coming trucks would share engines, transmissions and cab components with its other F-series vehicles to build economies of scale. Ford had been selling trucks built in Mexico by the two companies' joint venture, known as Blue Diamond Truck, since 2001. In 2015, Ford will start making new versions of the F-650 and F-750 at an existing E-series van factory in Avon Lake, Ohio.

"We're going to be everywhere in the market," said Todd Kaufman, director of F-series truck marketing at Ford. "We're not going to take a back seat to anybody" in the truck market.

He said the company intends to market its new trucks to the same truck and rental fleet operators courted by Navistar and others. To ease apprehension about trying the new designs, Ford plans to offer a five-year, 250,000-mile warranty on engines and transmissions, about double the industry's standard warranty. Ford intends to control costs by sharing cab components from its F-350 and F-450 pickup trucks.

Ford also will leverage its dealership network to support the new vehicles. About 600 of Ford's 3,000 U.S. dealers sell its commercial truck brands, and all of its dealers will be capable of repairing the F-650 and F-750 vehicles. "They'll be a big drawing card," said Charlie Gilchrist, president of Southwest Ford near Fort Worth, Texas.

Lee Dill, president of Circle D Truck Sales in Abilene, Texas, expects the coming Ford trucks to cost about $5,000 less than rivals because Ford is using in-house components and assembly. A Ford spokesman declined to comment on the pricing.

"After we found out they're going to be offering a purely Ford product, we're going to buy quite a few of them," said Mr. Dill. He said Ford's five-year powertrain warranty takes away much of buyers' uncertainty about the new models.

Navistar said it has no plans to increase its warranty incentives to drive medium-truck sales and is counting on the wider range of engine, drivetrain and other options to increase its share in heavy- and medium-duty trucks.

"The real advantage we have is purposely built commercial trucks, and we have dealers who are solely focused on commercial trucks," said Jack Allen, chief operating officer. "Those are inherent advantages over an auto-based truck dealer."

Navistar loyalists such as Daniel Murphy, president of Idealease Inc. in North Barrington, Ill., said orders for Navistar's medium-duty trucks are up 21% since the company began offering Cummins' 6.7-liter engines in the trucks in September.

"We came through a bad patch, but we've learned," agreed dealer Drew Linn, owner of Southland International in Alabama.

"Having the Cummins engines has opened some doors with new customers for us and calmed some fears with existing customers."

[Joe771476]

Thanks for that Bob! Wow, $400 million is not chump change even in today's economy! And that was without even trying! Let's see what happens now that they ARE trying! It looks like it's going to be Ford, Int'l and Freight as the big players in 6 & 7. Hino has been way behind in unit sales already. PACCAR (Pete and KW) aren't showing big numbers in this market. Neither is Volvo/Mack.

[SoonerLS]

Ford also will leverage its dealership network to support the new vehicles. About 600 of Ford's 3,000 U.S. dealers sell its commercial truck brands, and all of its dealers will be capable of repairing the F-650 and F-750 vehicles. "They'll be a big drawing card," said Charlie Gilchrist, president of Southwest Ford near Fort Worth, Texas.

I hadn't even thought of that--being able to take your truck to the nearest Ford dealer instead of having to find a commercial truck dealer has got to be a huge benefit to fleets. Think about the savings for fleets working in rural areas; you could be hundreds of miles from a commercial dealer but only minutes from a "normal" Ford dealer.

[7Mary3]

I have been expecting a response. Seems to me that Ford's advantage will be in the generic spec. van/flat/roll back medium duty, not the more specialized vocational/utility type truck. And that is good because those are the markets where Ford will have an advantage (price, simplified spec., fast delivery). Mr. Kaufman is blowing a little smoke, Ford will not be everywhere in the medium duty market (not in any of our yards, we already asked!) but I am sure he knows it. I expect Ford's new mediums to go straight for the bottom end of the market, primarily competing on price, and should nonetheless be profitable there.

 

International is stressing their dedicated truck dealer network, which is an advantage in some ways. There's no way Ford is going to get all their dealers to work on 650's and 750's (my closest dealer won't touch most 550's). And naturally International will be touting their ability to spec. out a medium for any application. However, if International really wanted to directly compete with the new Fords, I think it would be with a simplified Durastar with a Maxforce 7 engine, limited options, built in Escobedo. They could probably get pretty close to Ford on price.

 

Now for some propaganda:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEJPQEPrjVs

 

I will not comment on that!

[Bob Rosadini]

I have been expecting a response. Seems to me that Ford's advantage will be in the generic spec. van/flat/roll back medium duty, not the more specialized vocational/utility type truck. And that is good because those are the markets where Ford will have an advantage (price, simplified spec., fast delivery). Mr. Kaufman is blowing a little smoke, Ford will not be everywhere in the medium duty market (not in any of our yards, we already asked!) but I am sure he knows it. I expect Ford's new mediums to go straight for the bottom end of the market, primarily competing on price, and should nonetheless be profitable there.

 

International is stressing their dedicated truck dealer network, which is an advantage in some ways. There's no way Ford is going to get all their dealers to work on 650's and 750's (my closest dealer won't touch most 550's). And naturally International will be touting their ability to spec. out a medium for any application. However, if International really wanted to directly compete with the new Fords, I think it would be with a simplified Durastar with a Maxforce 7 engine, limited options, built in Escobedo. They could probably get pretty close to Ford on price.

 

Now for some propaganda:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEJPQEPrjVs

 

I will not comment on that!

7m-

Agree 100% with your take on just what Ford's target market will be. And "blowing smoke" is more than polite. There is no way the 6.7/Ford 6 spd is going to gain any confidence with those who work on the high end of class 7. Heavy municipal dump ? No way-in particular as municipals are exempt from the FET so the 33,000 lb. exemption "carrot" does nothing for them. Utilities? that is your world, but to this observer, I see the typical "heavy" National Grid, Verizon trucks in this neck of the woods as typically loaded for bear-big buckets or heavy PoleCats or similar augurs /cranes. Tree work?-different story-I can see them making some progress in that market.

 

The only chance I see for Ford getting back to the old days when they were big time in class 7 with heavy C models, Louisvilles, is if in time as their experience increases at Avon Lake, they might see an opportunity to expand the product slate-in particular if "One Ford" rules and they do something with their inhouse 6 cylinder Duratorque as used in the Cargo. No doubt when you look at all the discussion on the other thread about an Ecoboost for medium duty and the high cost of developing a gas engine that would be suitable for class 7, I am reminded, how much was spent developing the FR-9 Nascar motor?

 

"Where there's a will there's a way."

 

In the meantime, I'm sure the new combo will do very well in those select markets. Hino with their similar approach -only automatics etc- should be looking over their shoulder. F'liner? Navistar? I doubt they are loosing any sleep.

[RichardJensen]

I'm pretty sure that 'being everywhere' referred to the breadth of Ford's lineup, not the depth in specialized very low volume Class 6 & 7 stuff. You guys need to step out of your niches and breathe some fresh air once in a while

Edited May 16, 2014 by RichardJensen

[bzcat]

Here is the quote in context again.

 

 

 

"We're going to be everywhere in the market," said Todd Kaufman, director of F-series truck marketing at Ford. "We're not going to take a back seat to anybody" in the truck market.

 

The guy is "F-Series" marketing director, meaning he is responsible for class 2 to 7, not just the medium duty. I take that to mean that he wants to position Ford to be a single source class 2 to 7 supplier to commercial fleet buyers. Not so much that he wants to dominate every niche in the medium duty segments.

[Bob Rosadini]

Richard and Bzcat. Kaufmann said we are .."going to be EVERYWHERE in the market" He did NOT say we are going to be "selectively everywhere" in the market. 10 miles from my house is an Altec installation facility that usually has 30-50 HEAVY class 7 chassis in their holding yard awaiting bucket/boom installs for utilities. This is NOT an insignificant segment when you look at the total class 7 market.

 

And BZcat, he was interviewed I assume specifically by the WSJ to respond to Navistars loss of the Bluediamond volume. Nothing to do with class 2-5. I think sometimes we put on our rose colored glasses as needed. Do I think the new 650/750 will do well in select segments? For sure. But as it stands, with the option list such as it is, the market is limited IMO.

 

Oh, and my comment on utilities based on what I see on a regular basis at a significant installation facility? Just that-- my observation. Seems that 7m3 is in that business and I believe is saying at least from his company's perspective, Ford will not be a player with the current specs.

[Joe771476]

I've seen a bunch of new Ford medium bucket trucks used by tree trimmer Asplundh. A traffic signal installer here in CT uses some new Ford medium buckets. I don't see that as a really new market for Ford. I just went by Interstate Ford Truck in Hartford and they had some light duty Fords and five Medium Hinos, no Ford mediums. We'll see how long that lasts! I have to hand it to Fiat/Chrysler and Marchionne. I saw a print ad for Ram Commercial showing a few Ram chassis variations, the new Promaster , and this surprised me; a minivan with the windows replaced by sheet metal apparently to compete with the Transit Connect! They're trying! I haven't seen a print ad yet for the new Transit.

[RichardJensen]

Richard and Bzcat. Kaufmann said we are .."going to be EVERYWHERE in the market"

 

Oh come ON! It's a MARKETING guy in an INTERVIEW. Why aren't you insisting that this means that Ford is going to start building Class 8 sleepers? Compact trucks? Is this proof that the Ranger is coming back?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery

[twintornados]

double post

Edited May 18, 2014 by twintornados

[twintornados]

[Bob Rosadini]

 

Oh come ON! It's a MARKETING guy in an INTERVIEW. Why aren't you insisting that this means that Ford is going to start building Class 8 sleepers? Compact trucks? Is this proof that the Ranger is coming back?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery

Richard- Give me a break! The article was directed at the likely shake up in class 6/7 as a result of Navistar's loss of the Ford volume. Did I say anything about class 8 sleepers? compact trucks? No! Someone does a post and says the guy is blowing smoke. I agree. From your perspective I guess a marketing guy is entiltled to spout pure bullshit??

 

Credibility Richard. I guess from your foxhole a "marketing guy" who interviews for a major business publication is not responsible for anything he says. IMO if you are a spokesman for your company, you should not be saying anything that damages your personal credibility or your employers.