New Light & Medium Duty News

[jpd80]

On 12/17/2020 at 1:27 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

And for sure if they were really into that 22,000 lb wt if there was no F-600 it would like give Navistar or Chebby a sale

 Bob, I think your perception is spot on. I have no figures on GM Class 6 sales but Ford's

November sales of heavy trucks (F650 / F750) as reported by Ford was just over 1,100.

Combined sales of Ford class 6 and up was over 2,200, so:

F600~1,100 sales

F650~1,000 sales (~840 Nov'19)

F750 ~120 sales. (~170 Nov'19)

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by jpd80

[Bob Rosadini]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

 Bob, I think your perception is spot on. I have no figures on GM Class 6 sales but Ford's

November sales of heavy trucks (F650 / F750) as reported by Ford was just over 1,100.

Combined sales of Ford class 6 and up was over 2,200, so:

F600~1,100 sales

F650~1,000 sales (~840 Nov'19)

F750 ~120 sales. (~170 Nov'19)

 

 

 

 

JP-good info- hopefully once the air brake option goes into production for 7.3 powered 750s we will get a bump there.  Although-my broken record speech- I really think the 750 needs a Cummins/Allison option to compete with International , F'liner and the Paccar twins in class 7
 

But back to F-600 I stopped in at local dealer the other day that within the last year hired a commercial truck manager for the first time.  His biggest bitch?  Delayed deliveries out of OAP!  And he was doing well with F-600.  He said.."like the landscaper dump out there".  I thought when I went by it that it was a 550-very popular stock truck around here that dealers stock with high  side dumps that the landscapers buy to haul brush and chips and mulch.  The attraction though of a 600 vs a 550 with the same body is  the 600 at 22,000 will let you carry a decent amount of  loam or stone whereby the 550 is maxed out at 19.5

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

JP-good info- hopefully once the air brake option goes into production for 7.3 powered 750s we will get a bump there.  Although-my broken record speech- I really think the 750 needs a Cummins/Allison option to compete with International , F'liner and the Paccar twins in class 7
 

But back to F-600 I stopped in at local dealer the other day that within the last year hired a commercial truck manager for the first time.  His biggest bitch?  Delayed deliveries out of OAP!  And he was doing well with F-600.  He said.."like the landscaper dump out there".  I thought when I went by it that it was a 550-very popular stock truck around here that dealers stock with high  side dumps that the landscapers buy to haul brush and chips and mulch.  The attraction though of a 600 vs a 550 with the same body is  the 600 at 22,000 will let you carry a decent amount of  loam or stone whereby the 550 is maxed out at 19.5

You're not a broken record Bob, the truth is that F600 completes the promise to buyers with that better than F550 GVM,

Class 5 sales is the sweet spot for larger Ford trucks and F600, a nice add on that doesn't seem to be pinching from F650.

 

Now that the F600 is establishing, Ford should consider the steep drop off with F650 and F750 as proof that they're insufficient,

they need more with power, transmissions and braking capacity. I joked earlier about an 11 liter V12 Godzilla gas engine but

really, Ford could afford to try something like that plus a bigger Cummins diesel, Allison Transmission, spicer axles, air brakes

and push the F700/F800 sizing as something different. 

 

11 liter gas V12 would give like 500 hp @ 4500 and 700 lb ft @ 2500 rpm. So a real alternative to 6.7 diesel.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by jpd80

[lfeg]

Can't beat those old twin I beams.

[ausrutherford]

Looks like Ford Trucks expansion into Western Europe is taking hold.

 

They've launched into the Iberian peninsula and Italy.

 

Still haven't launched into the three heavy hitters: France, Germany, UK

[Bob Rosadini]

11 hours ago, lfeg said:

Can't beat those old twin I beams.

Hah- I wonder how many they used-trucks that is not I beams? -that was a '68?

[Bob Rosadini]

21 hours ago, jpd80 said:

You're not a broken record Bob, the truth is that F600 completes the promise to buyers with that better than F550 GVM,

Class 5 sales is the sweet spot for larger Ford trucks and F600, a nice add on that doesn't seem to be pinching from F650.

 

Now that the F600 is establishing, Ford should consider the steep drop off with F650 and F750 as proof that they're insufficient,

they need more with power, transmissions and braking capacity. I joked earlier about an 11 liter V12 Godzilla gas engine but

really, Ford could afford to try something like that plus a bigger Cummins diesel, Allison Transmission, spicer axles, air brakes

and push the F700/F800 sizing as something different. 

 

11 liter gas V12 would give like 500 hp @ 4500 and 700 lb ft @ 2500 rpm. So a real alternative to 6.7 diesel.

 

 Wouldn't that be a very costly attempt?  With all the electrification hype, I'm hopeful we get improvements to the Godzilla in its 7.3 form as well as the rumored 6.8 .  Then again would a big V-12 be a good candidate for a "gaseous" (propane/cng) motor.??

 

And speaking of electrification, in yesteday's WSJ, the pres of Toyota, Akio Toyoda...."criticized what he described as excessive hype over electric vehicles saying advocates failed to consider the carbon emitted by generating electricity and the costs of an EV transition."

 

This follows  story on Wed. in which VW board agreed finally on the CEO's strategy to refocus on electrics.  Surprising thing about that is there is a lot of union representation on board.

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 Wouldn't that be a very costly attempt?  With all the electrification hype, I'm hopeful we get improvements to the Godzilla in its 7.3 form as well as the rumored 6.8 .  Then again would a big V-12 be a good candidate for a "gaseous" (propane/cng) motor.??

 

And speaking of electrification, in yesteday's WSJ, the pres of Toyota, Akio Toyoda...."criticized what he described as excessive hype over electric vehicles saying advocates failed to consider the carbon emitted by generating electricity and the costs of an EV transition."

 

This follows  story on Wed. in which VW board agreed finally on the CEO's strategy to refocus on electrics.  Surprising thing about that is there is a lot of union representation on board.

Point being that a large gasoline engine is a good alternative to diesel and can be made to run on CNG.

Another alternative would be a fuel cell hybrid and electric motors as low CO2 and a get ready for full BEV

 

VW also pushing ahead with full electric trucks could be interesting as Europe will be way in front with this,

could be good for Ford by extension. A lot more things are now possible now that Ford and VW are partners.

They both stand to save a ton of money by sharing VW's massive investments  in electrification.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by jpd80

[lfeg]

10 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Hah- I wonder how many they used-trucks that is not I beams? -that was a '68?

I thought the twin I beam front end started in 65 or 66.

[SteelyD]

10 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Hah- I wonder how many they used-trucks that is not I beams? -that was a '68?

1965

 

[SteelyD]

On 12/19/2020 at 12:35 AM, jpd80 said:

You're not a broken record Bob, the truth is that F600 completes the promise to buyers with that better than F550 GVM,

Class 5 sales is the sweet spot for larger Ford trucks and F600, a nice add on that doesn't seem to be pinching from F650.

 

Now that the F600 is establishing, Ford should consider the steep drop off with F650 and F750 as proof that they're insufficient,

they need more with power, transmissions and braking capacity. I joked earlier about an 11 liter V12 Godzilla gas engine but

really, Ford could afford to try something like that plus a bigger Cummins diesel, Allison Transmission, spicer axles, air brakes

and push the F700/F800 sizing as something different. 

 

11 liter gas V12 would give like 500 hp @ 4500 and 700 lb ft @ 2500 rpm. So a real alternative to 6.7 diesel.

 

Drop off? Where? Ecoboost 7.3

[Bob Rosadini]

2 hours ago, lfeg said:

I thought the twin I beam front end started in 65 or 66.

Ifeg-I think you are correct in terms of first year of  TIB.  I was referring to the truck in movie was a 68

[Bob Rosadini]

6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Point being that a large gasoline engine is a good alternative to diesel and can be made to run on CNG.

Another alternative would be a fuel cell hybrid and electric motors as low CO2 and a get ready for full BEV

 

VW also pushing ahead with full electric trucks could be interesting as Europe will be way in front with this,

could be good for Ford by extension. A lot more things are now possible now that Ford and VW are partners.

They both stand to save a ton of money by sharing VW's massive investments  in electrification.

 

JP-Agree on CNG (and propane) being a good alternative  to diesel.  I just would hope Ford stops screwing around and makes it a full OAP option.  as it is now, as I understand it, the 7.3 that goes in to a 650/750 has whatever internals it needs for gaseous operation, but it leaves the plant with the full gasoline package and goes to Roush or someone else where the gasoline system is taken off and the fuel conversion takes place.  How can that be cost effective.  I think in the old KTP days, the full propane installation was done on the line.

 

As for the VW deal, I have  to believe that again  will be limited to light duty.  In particular, and sadly, now that Navistar has been sold to Traton, VW's heavy truck spin off, I doubt very much that there will be any co-operation in anything other than light trucks.  But then I get confiused as to just how these "spin offs" operate.

 

Just think, ignoring the specialty (boutique ?) builders like Autocar, Oshkosh etc. the US now has ONE domestic company that builds heavy trucks...Paccar.  Sad

[slemke]

7 hours ago, SteelyD said:

Drop off? Where? Ecoboost 7.3

Are you teasing us with a twin turbo Godzilla?  That would certainly cover having enough torque.

[7Mary3]

Ford is not about to offer a factory complete CNG/LPG option.  Not enough market for it, and CARB/EPA certification is expensive.  Ford is doing the right thing bu offering a prep package that includes all the internal engine modifications and letting the upfitters do the actual conversion and worry about certification.  Currently the only upfitter to my knowledge that's doing CARB certified CNG upfits is Landi-Renzo.  Landi-Renzo was the first company to upfit the new 7.3L to CNG (my employer was involved in that) and they plan to offer CNG conversions of all Super Duty models from 450 to 750.  

 

 

[jpd80]

18 hours ago, SteelyD said:

Drop off? Where? Ecoboost 7.3

The sweet spot is class 5 with nearly 4,800 sales, class 4 and 6 are both around 2,500 and class 7 around 170 sales.

 

A forced induction gasoline engine is less efficient under heavy  load than a larger Atmo gas engine,

SD and MD are opposite what you'd do in F150 which does most running without a load to speak of.

[twintornados]

F750 definitely needs a unique power train. I have said for quite a while that a Ford 9.0L Ecotorq from either Otosan or JMC would be just the ticket. In the past though, I suggested that Ford could use the same trans they use elsewhere for maximum cost savings but now I would suggest to pair it with an Allison transmission to keep the fleets and upfitters happy thus creating more sales. The modest increase in cost by using the Allison unit would be offset by higher sales.

[theoldwizard1]

21 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

JP-Agree on CNG (and propane) being a good alternative  to diesel. 

I worked on light and medium duty gaseous system for a short period of time before the bottom dropped out of that industry.

 

Head-to-head, it takes a lot more displacement (even more than gasoline) to get similar power when comparing gaseous to diesel.  The low volume of any engine larger than the 7.3L gas and 6.7L Power Stroke is NOT cost effective !  Stop dreaming !  The only reason Ford got back into Medium Duty was that could use existing powertrains.  The F750 has not made much of a dent in that market segment.  Some of it is fleet bean counters just checking the same box on new purchases.  Some of it is push back from fleet mechanics to keep everything the same.

 

LP only makes sense for delivery fleets (all Frito-Lay trucks in this area use Ford product converted by Roush) who have the money and space to install their own pumping station AND can afford to negotiate annual (non-seasonal) pricing of the fuel.

 

There is a CNG pumping station less than 1 mile from my house.  $$$/GGE is about %30 upcharge over regular gasoline.  Additionally, the cost of CNG tanks is still way, WAY to high !  While resin-carbon fiber tanks COULD drop the price, no company is planning any high volume production of these tanks.  It would take a couple of large tanks to do any kind of "long haul" trucking.  And finding a filling station is still a major issue.

 

21 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

I just would hope Ford stops screwing around and makes it a full OAP option.  as it is now, as I understand it, the 7.3 that goes in to a 650/750 has whatever internals it needs for gaseous operation, but it leaves the plant with the full gasoline package and goes to Roush or someone else where the gasoline system is taken off and the fuel conversion takes place.  How can that be cost effective.  I think in the old KTP days, the full propane installation was done on the line.

The big change typically with gaseous prep is sodium filled exhaust valves.  8 of those is not cheap so I doubt that the install them on EVERY 7.3L engine.

 

As for build on the line, forget it !  Not going to happen.

 

The thing I can not figure out is UPS using LNG on some "long haul" trucks.  LNG is incredibly expensive to install (The LNG tank must be refrigerated.  The liquid is allow to "boil off" into a CNG tank).  IMHO, LNG only makes sense if there is a depot somewhere that does not have local diesel delivery but DOES have a NG pipeline (4 corners area).

[theoldwizard1]

1 hour ago, twintornados said:

F750 definitely needs a unique power train. I have said for quite a while that a Ford 9.0L Ecotorq from either Otosan or JMC would be just the ticket. 

Not going to happen !  Those engines would require a lot of work to make them compliant with CARB/EPA emission standards.  Buying and engine or transmission from someone else would eat up most profit from those vehicles.

[7Mary3]

Best CNG engine for medium duty is the Cummins ISG, and it's turbocharged and over 9L.

[bzcat]

30 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

Best CNG engine for medium duty is the Cummins ISG, and it's turbocharged and over 9L.

 

I think that is also the engine used in all the transit buses here in Los Angeles. It has a very unique sound.

[jpd80]

9 hours ago, theoldwizard1 said:

Not going to happen !  Those engines would require a lot of work to make them compliant with CARB/EPA emission standards.  Buying and engine or transmission from someone else would eat up most profit from those vehicles.

Regardless of that, it’s becoming obvious now that the transport industry wants to invest in technology that has a future, large ICEs are on the skids and maybe things like Fuel cells and BEVs make more sense now, especially when a few states look to be getting much tougher on emitters.

[iamweasel]

6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

Best CNG engine for medium duty is the Cummins ISG, and it's turbocharged and over 9L.

 

It's now called the L9N and it's an 8.9L engine.  

 

Cummins Westport - L9N - Models

 

I think the engine itself is okay, but the electronics and everything else with Cummins CNG engines can be very problematic.  Maybe the L9N is better than the ISL-G  it recently replaced, but I wouldn't touch any of their CNG products.  

 

[7Mary3]

12 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

I think that is also the engine used in all the transit buses here in Los Angeles. It has a very unique sound.

 

A lot of what you hear is the air brake compressor, not the engine!

[7Mary3]

5 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

It's now called the L9N and it's an 8.9L engine.  

 

Cummins Westport - L9N - Models

 

I think the engine itself is okay, but the electronics and everything else with Cummins CNG engines can be very problematic.  Maybe the L9N is better than the ISL-G  it recently replaced, but I wouldn't touch any of their CNG products.  

 

 

You are right, I meant to say over 8L.  Anyway, I run a lot of them and the only problems I have encountered have been electronic accelerator pedals and burned up spark plugs.  I really wish Cummins would do a better job painting the engines, it looks like they use a mop and paint everything (including all wiring harnesses) after the engine is completely assembled.  At least they took some care and wrapped the coil connectors with packing tape on the newer versions, it was almost impossible to disconnect the coils when they painted the connectors along with everything else. 

 

I would really like to try an F-650 with a Landi CNG 7.3L in it.  I have no illusions it would be any good over about 20,000 lbs. though.