Lincoln's Renaissance Needs a Jump?

[akirby]

with that 240hp motor in a vehicle pushing $40,000 with a few options.

 

Audi A6 2.0T - $51,000 nicely equipped. 211 hp, 258 lb/ft.

 

The new CTS just blows this vehicle away in every benchmark.

 

You mean the one that nobody has driven yet and has only been seen in one spy shot?

 

LINCOLN DOESN'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF TIME ON ITS SIDE.

 

Sure they do. They have all the time in the world as long as Ford is making money. It's not like Lincoln is a stand alone company that has to make a profit or go bankrupt.

[silvrsvt]

I just ignore Borgs comments...he's so schizophrenic about what he wants as a luxury car...talks up the German makes or Caddy, but yet goes out and buys a Lincoln because he gets a discount on them...

[sullynd]

You mean the one that nobody has driven yet and has only been seen in one spy shot?

Poor Cadillac, you mean they had it at the New York Autoshow and nobody saw it!??

 

[FordBuyer]

Poor Cadillac, you mean they had it at the New York Autoshow and nobody saw it!??

 

 

The new CTS competes against the MKZ, not the MKS. That is the job of the XTS. The new CTS starts with 270hp and ends with 430 hp twin turbo. All come with 8 speed autos. That is the reality of the market. MKZ hybrid is the one area where Lincoln gets something distinctive. MKZ should do OK this year, but will it become tired by time CTS hits market and fully launched. So Lincoln doesn't have a lot of time to fiddle with as dealers and customers have lots of great product to cross shop. And if Lincoln plans on continuing to ship new Lincoln products with current Ford drivetrains only, then this time shrinks even more. If Ford is indeed working on new 2.7 L V6 and/or I4 EB, and 8 speed auto, they need to be introduced in Lincoln products first, and have a bit more power also than Ford brand. Cadillac is not messing around, and like it or not Lincoln is going to be benchmarked and cross shopped by Cadillac first. The market changes so fast. A few short weeks ago I saw my first production MKZ's at Hines Park, and thought Lincoln had something, but now after seeing the new CTS and engine/drivetrain lineup, MKZ appears dated already. Jaguar and Land Rover look better all the time as Lincoln effort even more starts to look like too little too late.

[FordBuyer]

Poor Cadillac, you mean they had it at the New York Autoshow and nobody saw it!??

 

 

Looks that way on here.

[silvrsvt]

The new CTS competes against the MKZ, not the MKS.

 

The point your missing is the Lincoln doesn't offer a car like the CTS...the only way the CTS and MKZ are the same is they are mid-sized sedans...I don't see you comparing the ES to the CTS or any of the other FWD based Sedans.

[Fgts]

The point your missing is the Lincoln doesn't offer a car like the CTS...the only way the CTS and MKZ are the same is they are mid-sized sedans...I don't see you comparing the ES to the CTS or any of the other FWD based Sedans.

Something to add, the Lacrosse is GMs true ES competitor, The XTS is about a foot longer, $10g more and more features then the ES. The only true 2 mid-sized American lux cars are the MKZ and CTS and they will be crossed-shopped. Edited March 31, 2013 by Fgts

[FordBuyer]

Something to add, the Lacrosse is GMs true ES competitor, The XTS is about a foot longer, $10g more and more features then the ES. The only true 2 mid-sized American lux cars are the MKZ and CTS and they will be crossed-shopped.

 

Yep, the MKZ and CTS unfortunately for Lincoln will be crosshopped. Even though in reality the MKZ and new LaCrosse are better comparisons. Now maybe Lincoln will blow us away with all new MKX with new, competitive drivetrains and hybrid. But until then, the reality to me is Lincoln competes with Buick and doesn't have the heart or purse strings to do better.

[Extreme4x4]

It gets to the point where I don't even want to read these Lincoln subjects anymore. Frankly, they are ridiculous.

 

Ford doesn't care if you think they are moving fast enough. They will move at the speed that they need to move, to do the job right, not to satisfy some internet blogger who more than likely would never consider their product anyway.

 

How fast and easy do you think it is, to change an entire mentality?? How fast and easy do you think it is, to get your suppliers on board as to the new quality that you expect?? How fast and easy do you think it is, to get your dealership network to not treat your brand like "just another car?"

 

Change will come, and it will come slowly. That is how things move in automobileland. Those that expect instant results are going to be horribly disappointed. Too bad, so sad.

 

As for the comparison to the CTS, for the MKZ.................. ok. While I think the cross shopping will be less than some here think, I'll give it a shot. Expect the CTS, in all trims, to be about $10K more than the comparative Lincoln product. After all, the ATS is closer in pricing. CTS = brash. MKZ=restrained. MKZ=hybrid. CTS=crickets. CTS=TTV6. MKZ=TTV6 coming. They are different products for different consumers.

 

Finally, the biggest difference between Cadillac and Lincoln. One makes money, and one doesn't. One sucks profits from other divisions to hide how big of a money pit it is, the other doesn't. One brought product about a decade before they started to think about the dealership experience (infrastructure), one isn't.

 

While I may not be particularly pleased with aspects of Lincoln, I will not go on arbitrary boards, all over the internet to climb on the "they aren't doing it my way, so they suck," bandwagon. I am not an automotive CEO. I have no obligation to my shareholders. I have no inside knowledge of just how hard it is to change long standing, entrenched process's/people. I do honestly think things will get better at Lincoln. I also honestly believe that, like Ford, it will seem like an insurmountable quest.................... but one that will, at some point, turn rather quickly. Just like it did with Ford.

 

Many of you think the powers that be, at Lincoln and Ford are idiots. They would only be idiots if they listened to "back seat CEO's."

[twmalonehunter]

It gets to the point where I don't even want to read these Lincoln subjects anymore. Frankly, they are ridiculous.

 

Ford doesn't care if you think they are moving fast enough. They will move at the speed that they need to move, to do the job right, not to satisfy some internet blogger who more than likely would never consider their product anyway.

 

How fast and easy do you think it is, to change an entire mentality?? How fast and easy do you think it is, to get your suppliers on board as to the new quality that you expect?? How fast and easy do you think it is, to get your dealership network to not treat your brand like "just another car?"

 

Change will come, and it will come slowly. That is how things move in automobileland. Those that expect instant results are going to be horribly disappointed. Too bad, so sad.

 

As for the comparison to the CTS, for the MKZ.................. ok. While I think the cross shopping will be less than some here think, I'll give it a shot. Expect the CTS, in all trims, to be about $10K more than the comparative Lincoln product. After all, the ATS is closer in pricing. CTS = brash. MKZ=restrained. MKZ=hybrid. CTS=crickets. CTS=TTV6. MKZ=TTV6 coming. They are different products for different consumers.

 

Finally, the biggest difference between Cadillac and Lincoln. One makes money, and one doesn't. One sucks profits from other divisions to hide how big of a money pit it is, the other doesn't. One brought product about a decade before they started to think about the dealership experience (infrastructure), one isn't.

 

While I may not be particularly pleased with aspects of Lincoln, I will not go on arbitrary boards, all over the internet to climb on the "they aren't doing it my way, so they suck," bandwagon. I am not an automotive CEO. I have no obligation to my shareholders. I have no inside knowledge of just how hard it is to change long standing, entrenched process's/people. I do honestly think things will get better at Lincoln. I also honestly believe that, like Ford, it will seem like an insurmountable quest.................... but one that will, at some point, turn rather quickly. Just like it did with Ford.

 

Many of you think the powers that be, at Lincoln and Ford are idiots. They would only be idiots if they listened to "back seat CEO's."

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^ x 1000

[Ron W.]

I feel I'm buying a great Ford, not a great Lincoln.

 

And this has gone on for decades, why doesn't this oh you bought a tarted up Ford attitude apply to Lexus, Acura, Infinity etc?

[akirby]

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^ x 1000

 

x 1,000,000

 

I forgot that the CTS was at the auto show. But it's still true that nobody has driven one yet and FordBuyer certainly hasn't seen one in person yet.

[BORG]

And this has gone on for decades, why doesn't this oh you bought a tarted up Ford attitude apply to Lexus, Acura, Infinity etc?

 

The entire Lincoln lineup is badge engineered, it's the only luxury marque to do this, besides Buick. They don't engineer anything, that's what makes them unique in this business. And I appreciate that Lincoln is not Caddy or Mercedes, it's not a high-end luxury marque commanding top-tier pricing. But it's awfully close for something so far from those standards.

 

Now I can appreciate Lincoln more when it's avoiding segments like the Lincoln MKZ, this is an area where Lincoln is the weakest because they do not have competitive bones to work with (and they can't create their own). And Lincoln is very late to this party, they are competing with the Lexus ES at a time when that market is giving way to the Germans, which are fundamentally different cars. Lincoln is chasing the game in the wrong direction, but they obviously have no choice given their resources. Lincoln is better off in the Crossover space where there is growth and they aren't severely disadvantaged. This is where my hope lies, the MKC, next MKX, and MKT (Explorer version).

Edited March 31, 2013 by BORG

[FordBuyer]

x 1,000,000

 

I forgot that the CTS was at the auto show. But it's still true that nobody has driven one yet and FordBuyer certainly hasn't seen one in person yet.

 

Yeah, a person who never met a Ford/Lincoln product she didn't rave about is really influential or credible. Maybe on here with you rose colored glasses bunch. And with CTS, I can read the engine performance numbers, the cogs in auto trans, and the fact that Cadillac is reducing the weight of its products. Sorry, but the CTS is going to be compared to the MKZ like it or not, and it will not fare well in any comparo test just as the Camry doesn't fare well with new Fusion. After the A,Z plan bunch buy the new MKZ, and a few brand loyalists, MKZ will be mid pack at best after one year out, and being called mid pack would be charitable. I know I've lowered my expectations of what Lincoln is and will be after MKZ launch, and at best Buick is its main competitor, not Cadillac. Lincoln is the new Mercury, nothing more.

[jpd80]

Lincoln is the new Mercury, nothing more.

Which would be believable if there was no Titanium Fusion absolutely selling its head off.

 

There's a lot of misdirected anger and frustration on here, the Ford brand is now above Chevrolet and arguably covering Buick's realm,

that leaves Lincoln above it as basically a high series with different sheet metal and trim at Titanium +$8,000 prices.

Much is said about the lack of apparent differentiation between Ford and Lincoln but ultimately, buyers wil decide that.

 

I love how ATS and CTS are constantly thrown in Lincoln's face yet all the money spent on copying BMW has yet to be justified

and quite honestly, never will because Cadillac will never be held to the same financial scrutiny that Lincoln is.

 

And again we have several here acting as though their opinions are reflective of the wider luxury buyer community,

it is a dangerous premise to present your own buying preferences, hopes desires as some sort of gold standard.

Ford has chosen to follow the MKZ path based on research and clinical reviews to guide them, rather than gut feelings

and they should at least be given the chance to prove those decisions correct by the only critics that matter, actual buyers.

Edited March 31, 2013 by jpd80

[akirby]

Sorry, but the CTS is going to be compared to the MKZ like it or not, and it will not fare well in any comparo test just as the Camry doesn't fare well with new Fusion.

 

Thank you for proving my point. Winning comparison tests in magazines or getting engineering accolades do not equate to sales and profits. If Cadillac was a standalone company they would have gone bankrupt by themselves a long time ago - not because the products are bad but because they're spending way too much to get them.

[Edstock]

MKZ appears dated already.

 

Really? Please supply specifics on how this is so. What new trends have emerged that have made the MKZ look "dated already"?

 

But it's still true that nobody has driven one yet and FordBuyer certainly hasn't seen one in person yet.

 

Do hallucinations count?

[jpd80]

Thank you for proving my point. Winning comparison tests in magazines or getting engineering accolades do not equate to sales and profits. If Cadillac was a standalone company they would have gone bankrupt by themselves a long time ago - not because the products are bad but because they're spending way too much to get them.

Precisely, let's see how good sales of ATS and CTS actually are before we nail down Lincoln's coffin,

in terms of bang for bucks, MKZ sales may not that far behind the Cadillac pair and miles ahead in seeing a ROI..

Edited March 31, 2013 by jpd80

[Extreme4x4]

Yeah, a person who never met a Ford/Lincoln product she didn't rave about is really influential or credible. Maybe on here with you rose colored glasses bunch. And with CTS, I can read the engine performance numbers, the cogs in auto trans, and the fact that Cadillac is reducing the weight of its products. Sorry, but the CTS is going to be compared to the MKZ like it or not, and it will not fare well in any comparo test just as the Camry doesn't fare well with new Fusion. After the A,Z plan bunch buy the new MKZ, and a few brand loyalists, MKZ will be mid pack at best after one year out, and being called mid pack would be charitable. I know I've lowered my expectations of what Lincoln is and will be after MKZ launch, and at best Buick is its main competitor, not Cadillac. Lincoln is the new Mercury, nothing more.

 

In comparison to you, a person who has never seen a Ford/Lincoln product that they didn't complain about constantly?? Or, maybe in comparison to you, who feels that every other brand is better/ smarter than Ford/Lincoln?? Or, could it be a comparison to you, who thinks that Mulally is stupid, and everyone who has anything to do with Ford is stupid also, because they don't agree with you?? Or possibly, in comparison to you, who feels that you somehow know all that is going on inside Lincoln, and will be going on inside Lincoln for the foreseeable future?? How about you, who has a time machine to see exactly how Lincolns rebirth will play out, and how successful (or not) it will be??

 

Strangely, I don't remember gushing praise about much of anything. I have said that I will WAIT AND SEE what happens. What a novel idea. Wait and see what will happen, before we play judge, and jury. Frankly, it is called critical thinking skills, and maturity.

 

Do I praise some things................... yep. Do I chime in now and then on things I don't like.............. yep. Do I feel it is necessary to post ad nauseum in every thread on this site, with venom and arrogance that my opinion is the only one that matters................ no.

 

BTW, I don't post much period. I don't feel it is necessary to add when everyone is cheering................. or when everyone is bashing. I try to discuss, give the benefit of the doubt, and be an optimist. After all, that is what I am, as I try to see the good in most things. You, on the other hand are a pessimist................... well, at least where Ford is concerned.

 

That said, Ford will do what they will with Lincoln, no matter what anyone says. It may not be brash, it may not be flashy, but you can bet your buns they will make a profit at it.

[sullynd]

What Lincoln needs is a Fusion. By that I don't mean the MkZ, which is a good start, but a car that the non-faithful can look at and go "Wow!".

[Extreme4x4]

The problem is, that won't happen. There is a certain contingent (most on GMI, some here), that if Lincoln brought out an Aston Martin Vantage (in spirit), it would still be ridiculed and bitched about.

 

Lincoln needs to do what is best for Lincoln. That is something they are still exploring. The proof will be in the profits.

 

Just think of how many billions of Buick and GMC's profits, that Cadillac will digest, to produce their flagship car. The car, that most acknowledge will never make money. Why?? Just to say they can??

[jpd80]

The abhorrence expressed by Lincoln critics stems from the association with Ford manufacturing plants,

Critics want Lincoln to be more than Cadillac, completely divorced from its parent company

and building RWD products on an expensive dedicated platform.

 

none of which would guarantee increased sales....

[Extreme4x4]

That is because most who criticize would never buy a Lincoln................... or a Cadillac.................. no matter what.

 

Now, if Ford were to make a Lincoln that is like a Bentley, yet price it like a Tata, then they would buy it...................... but only because it is cheap. These are the same people who lament the passing of the Ranger, because they can't buy a brand new truck for $12K.

 

Lets watch the sales of the new CTS, which will be interesting. After all, it will be priced substantially higher than the current one. I have a feeling that many intenders will fall by the wayside, based on that alone. Just like many are finally getting the Z/28 that they wanted, with the pricetag attached. Watch the complaining begin, when the price is revealed. That is the byproduct of listening to your enthusiasts................. but not tempering it with business sense.

 

This is much the same as the new Impala, which will sell in similar numbers to the Taurus (until GM gets tired of it, and dumps features to allow them to pour on subsidized leases, to keep the plant humming).

[jpd80]

You know the strangest thing?
I have a hunch that most potential buyers will get a quote on the CTS, die of shock and go look at an MKS Ecoboost instead.

A similar thing happened with the ATS, it had accolades up the cazoo until people went and priced the one they wanted....

Edited March 31, 2013 by jpd80

[akirby]

I wonder if the new CTS and ATS combined will sell as well as the old CTS when it was by itself.

 

Also - since Caddy will be sharing platforms with Chevy going forward do you think they'll get ridiculed for it like Ford does? (that was rhetorical of course)