Fiat to kill off Dodge by 2016?

[silvrsvt]

File this under WTF?

http://carbuzz.com/news/2013/6/13/Fiat-Killing-Dodge-by-2016-7714802/

[timf]

I don't think it's far fetched at all. Since breaking Ram off into it's own brand, Dodge is made up largely of redundant vehicles. As the article states, they could easily rebrand the one or two unique vehicles and ditch the brand.

[calypsocoral]

I think he's right, actually.

 

Let's not forget that the only truly profitable parts of Dodge were the Grand Caravan (although that's arguable, with the Honda Odyssey eating most of its lunch anymore) and their truck division. The latter has been spun-off into the "Ram" brand. The Challenger is going away, to be replaced by the Barracuda under the "SRT" brand to be shared with the Viper.

 

So, yes, Dodge is now, officially, Chrysler's "Pontiac"-- nothing more than duplicates of vehicles other brands under the same company do better.

 

And I wouldn't doubt this was the plan from the get-go. I always felt the decision to spin off the truck division was odd. Now we can see it was the first step in dividing up the best parts of Dodge, and scrapping the rest.

 

Ever since Dodge axed the Magnum, I haven't really been particularly-moved by their product. I'm not going to be too sorry to see them go.

 

So, in a few years, the Mopar dealerships will consist of Chrysler, Jeep, and Ram, with a few "privileged" dealerships adding the "SRT" brand in there as well.

[PREMiERdrum]

Remember the rumors of the next gen Challenger being sold under the "SRT" brand, and possibly renamed to Barracuda?

 

Oh where oh where is Intrepidatious?

[All-Or-Nothing]

Meh......Dodge ain't going anywhere.

[theoldwizard]

It was obvious to most observers that Fiat bout Chrysler as a way to get a dealer network in order to get ts foot back in the door. Jeep and Ram were bonuses.

 

This was inevitable.

[Anthony]

I think he's right, actually.

 

Let's not forget that the only truly profitable parts of Dodge were the Grand Caravan (although that's arguable, with the Honda Odyssey eating most of its lunch anymore) and their truck division. The latter has been spun-off into the "Ram" brand. The Challenger is going away, to be replaced by the Barracuda under the "SRT" brand to be shared with the Viper.

 

So, yes, Dodge is now, officially, Chrysler's "Pontiac"-- nothing more than duplicates of vehicles other brands under the same company do better.

 

And I wouldn't doubt this was the plan from the get-go. I always felt the decision to spin off the truck division was odd. Now we can see it was the first step in dividing up the best parts of Dodge, and scrapping the rest.

 

Ever since Dodge axed the Magnum, I haven't really been particularly-moved by their product. I'm not going to be too sorry to see them go.

 

So, in a few years, the Mopar dealerships will consist of Chrysler, Jeep, and Ram, with a few "privileged" dealerships adding the "SRT" brand in there as well.

 

 

Remember the rumors of the next gen Challenger being sold under the "SRT" brand, and possibly renamed to Barracuda?

 

Oh where oh where is Intrepidatious?

 

 

 

I would not put anything past them at this point. But I will refute at least one point.

 

Challenger is getting a massive refresh for next year, this has been confirmed by Ralph. However, nothing has been confirmed about where the "Barracuda" is going (Dodge or SRT...heck maybe even Chrysler), that's all been media (and forum) rumor. I mean, let's think about it: If the Challenger is going away, are you really going to build an orphan coupe and only have it be available in the highest price point? (SRT would not allow for secretary special V6 models). So, I'd put away any thoughts of an SRT only model coupe at this point unless their sales and business model takes a massive 180...which I don't see happening.

 

All that aside, if they continue to starve Dodge for mainstream product (let's face it...the brand is not going to survive on a refreshed Challenger), then it is destined to join Mercury, Plymouth and Olds in that great boneyard in the sky. ....and you know what? I think it might not be a bad idea.

 

You've got Chrysler covering midsize through fullsize (mainstream up through entry-level luxury) with the possibility of some compacts, Jeep for your SUV's, Ram for your trucks and Fiat for your subcompact up through compact. Honestly, at this point I don't see the need for Dodge except to wax nostalgic.

 

My opinion? Kill Dodge.

 

Also my opinion? I think the folks in Auburn Hills are thinking the same thing.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Intrepidatious

[jpd80]

It was obvious to most observers that Fiat bout Chrysler as a way to get a dealer network in order to get ts foot back in the door. Jeep and Ram were bonuses.

 

This was inevitable.

I remember those words, Fiat bought Chrysler and it's brands cheap with promises of new platforms to shore up sales,

The dealer network is obviously valuable to Fiat and Alfa Romero, RAM , Chrysler and Jeep are obviously profitable

but maybe Dodge is now not so much since Ram was hived off...

Edited June 14, 2013 by jpd80

[PREMiERdrum]

 

 

 

I would not put anything past them at this point. But I will refute at least one point.

 

Challenger is getting a massive refresh for next year, this has been confirmed by Ralph. However, nothing has been confirmed about where the "Barracuda" is going (Dodge or SRT...heck maybe even Chrysler), that's all been media (and forum) rumor. I mean, let's think about it: If the Challenger is going away, are you really going to build an orphan coupe and only have it be available in the highest price point? (SRT would not allow for secretary special V6 models). So, I'd put away any thoughts of an SRT only model coupe at this point unless their sales and business model takes a massive 180...which I don't see happening.

 

All that aside, if they continue to starve Dodge for mainstream product (let's face it...the brand is not going to survive on a refreshed Challenger), then it is destined to join Mercury, Plymouth and Olds in that great boneyard in the sky. ....and you know what? I think it might not be a bad idea.

 

You've got Chrysler covering midsize through fullsize (mainstream up through entry-level luxury) with the possibility of some compacts, Jeep for your SUV's, Ram for your trucks and Fiat for your subcompact up through compact. Honestly, at this point I don't see the need for Dodge except to wax nostalgic.

 

My opinion? Kill Dodge.

 

Also my opinion? I think the folks in Auburn Hills are thinking the same thing.

 

The sales channels have all been consolidated, correct? So a Challenger could carry on as the last "Dodge" on the lots, without the worry of standalone Dodge dealers throwing fits... Or the Challenger could slide under the Chrysler umbrella without much in the way of brand badging, a la Chrysler Prowler. Then put Barracuda under the new "SRT" brand with Viper and you're going somewhere.

 

I can't help but wonder if Dart was a litmus test to see if a truly good mainstream product would bring buyers back to the Dodge brand. They even paused the "100" project to give it a fighting chance... and it ain't working.

[twintornados]

With all the effort to create "new" brands...ala, RAM and SRT, they could have just as easily focused their marketing strength and brought Dodge to new-found sales....as it stands now, Chrysler Group is fracturing off into little pieces vs the Ford approach of bringing it all together in the "One Ford" mantra....I have a hunch that if indeed it is true and the Dodge marque is heading for the great scrap yard in the sky, it will be followed by the full introduction of Fiat and return of Alfa Romeo to the US shortly thereafter.

[Anthony]

Alfa is already coming to the US before the end of this year.

[RichardJensen]

I'm with Pete D. on that Alfa thing: Sergio driving one off a transport ship at 11:59 on Dec. 31 to make that prediction come true...

 

BTW: I just now this moment saw my first -in the wild- Volt. In context it looks like an over decorated compact sedan.

 

Anyway, if you're going to kill Dodge, why kill Dodge? Why not just get rid of the cars and do "Dodge Trucks"? Why create this whole dumb "Ram" brand first?

[Anthony]

Anyway, if you're going to kill Dodge, why kill Dodge? Why not just get rid of the cars and do "Dodge Trucks"? Why create this whole dumb "Ram" brand first?

My thought? If you remove the cars from the Dodge brand and just leave trucks, it would be seen as even more of a dying brand then it is today.

 

Consumer View: "Should I buy that Dodge Truck? Oh wait, they just killed off 3/4 the models. Is it still going to be around in 5 years when I need this truck serviced?"

 

That's not something that can be recovered from with any amount of ease. If they wanted to kill Dodge cars, they were right to separate out the trucks beforehand. That way Dodge doesn't become "just a truck brand" or a "niche brand" or some other confusing iteration....it's just dead along with any baggage it had. Keep the name around and you keep the conversation going about how it's only a "shell of it's former self". Remove it and you've got some short term press pain, but after a year or two nobody cares anymore. It's not like anyone outside of these forums is talking about Mercury, Saturn or Oldsmobile anymore.

[silvrsvt]

What is the final end game of slotting each brand if they did this? I've always considered Chrysler to be a Buick type marquee (maybe even Lincoln, but that was more or less self inflicted), Where does Fiat and Alfa fit into this? I think they are going to have more issues trying to replace Dodge with Fiat, if they intend on doing that....I guess Alfa would be more of a higher end product or luxury make then?

[RichardJensen]

My thought? If you remove the cars from the Dodge brand and just leave trucks, it would be seen as even more of a dying brand then it is today.

 

Consumer View: "Should I buy that Dodge Truck? Oh wait, they just killed off 3/4 the models. Is it still going to be around in 5 years when I need this truck serviced?"

 

IMO you're overthinking it:

 

"oh wait they just killed off..." Yeah, that would be valid if Chrysler was going to ax every Dodge model all at once.

 

A better formula: You repeat what Chrysler did back when they wanted to pass themselves off as GM, Jr.: You start referring to Dodge Trucks, and you make "Dodge Trucks" a signature element of the branding for every truck.

 

 

And then, as the Dodge cars die on the vine, while you continue to "Monday Night Football, sponsored by Dodge Truck", "Dodge Truck: Class leading towing and payload", etc.

 

---

 

But seeings how they rebranded the trucks as RAM back when they had no idea what they were doing (and who knows if they have any idea now), they're kind of stuck with a stupid name to carry on the strongest aspect of their oldest brand.

 

And that is why I have zero belief that Chrysler can sustain any long-term success: Their management is all over the place. I get this sense of divided attention, poorly defined decision making process and a general sense of chaos at the top not unlike the "Bob Lutz/Lee Iacoccca" school of management by personality.

Edited June 14, 2013 by RichardJensen

[grbeck]

 

 

All that aside, if they continue to starve Dodge for mainstream product (let's face it...the brand is not going to survive on a refreshed Challenger), then it is destined to join Mercury, Plymouth and Olds in that great boneyard in the sky. ....and you know what? I think it might not be a bad idea.

 

 

I disagree. In the case of Dodge, management is slowly starving what is still a viable brand. Before management made the dumb decision to spin off the pickup trucks as a separate brand, Dodge was the fourth or fifth most popular brand in the country. It has been the "mass market" brand for Chrysler, and wasn't doing all that badly in sales, considering how Chrysler Corporation had suffered first under Daimler and then under Cerberus. The full-size pickup, Caravan, Charger and Challenger were all popular and well-received by the automotive press. The Dart is a decent car that needs a few tweaks. The division really just needs a Accord-Fusion-Camry-Malibu competitor.

 

I also wouldn't compare Dodge to Oldsmobile, Mercury or Plymouth.

 

Oldsmobile continued its downward spiral even after the introduction of several new models, sliding from over 1 million sales in 1986 to less than 400,000 sales in less than a decade. It then declined even more - to about 300,000 - by 2000 despite the introduction of the Aurora, Intrigue and Alero. Even worse, about 1/3 of those sales were to rental car companies or GM employees.

 

Plymouth and Mercury had been treated as second-class citizens by their respective parent corporation for decades, and their sales and market image proved it. Plymouth had been a non-entity since the late 1970s, which was the logical outcome of the decision to give Dodge the low-cost, full-size Dart in 1960. The decision to ax those two brands was hardly unexpected.

 

And I think Fiat is going to be disappointed. Sorry, but the average American car buyer isn't waiting breathlessly for the return of Fiat and Alfa Romeo in this country. The demand for diesel-powered station wagons or manual transmissions in regular sedans is largely limited to about 1,000 people who post on automotive sites. I'm afraid that Fiat will discover the same thing with the reintroduction of Alfa and the rollout of an expanded Fiat line-up.

[Anthony]

I disagree. In the case of Dodge, management is slowly starving what is still a viable brand.

 

I would agree with what you and Richard said if the Dodge brand had incredible brand equity and a dedicated loyal customer base. It doesn't and it doesn't. Having another brand that almost duplicates it's products in the same showroom doesn't help either. That's been the same for decades.

 

Before management made the dumb decision to spin off the pickup trucks as a separate brand, Dodge was the fourth or fifth most popular brand in the country.

 

Well there ya go. BEFORE the trucks were removed it was a popular brand. So in other words, only the trucks kept the brand viable. So, if you look at this as a long term euthanization of the Dodge brand then the creation of Ram accomplished it's mission. It successfully separated the the trucks from the Dodge brand (truck sales sure have not suffered). It actually killed two birds with one stone. You remove a car brand and get a new truck brand with no baggage.

 

It has been the "mass market" brand for Chrysler, and wasn't doing all that badly in sales, considering how Chrysler Corporation had suffered first under Daimler and then under Cerberus. The full-size pickup, Caravan, Charger and Challenger were all popular and well-received by the automotive press. The Dart is a decent car that needs a few tweaks. The division really just needs a Accord-Fusion-Camry-Malibu competitor.

 

Mass market in duplication only. Let's take a look at the current lineup:

 

Grand Caravan: Same as the T&C except lower retail sales and pricing. Two of the same vehicle in the same showroom ain't cutting it anymore.

Charger: Same basic strategy as the 300 except lower retail and pricing. How long can you support two full-sized RWD vehicles?

Durango: Overlaps with the Grand Cherokee except much lower sales and revenue.

Avenger: Need I even go there? When was the last time Dodge had a competitive Accord-Fusion-Camry-Malibu competitor?

Challenger: Has been second tier in sales to Camaro and Mustang since it was introduced.

Dart: The only shining star in the lineup and guess what? It isn't selling that incredibly. Ask yourself this: Would it have sold in greater numbers had it been a Toyota, Honda or even a Ford?

 

 

I think PREMiERdrum hit it on the head with this statement:

 

 

 

I can't help but wonder if Dart was a litmus test to see if a truly good mainstream product would bring buyers back to the Dodge brand. They even paused the "100" project to give it a fighting chance... and it ain't working.

 

The only difference is I see Chrysler becoming more mainstream then it is now and covering some of the bases that Dodge did without the overlap and Fiat taking the smallest cars (with Chrysler still getting a Dart-sized compact). Chrysler and Jeep have actually has enjoyed press and marketing goodwill for the past couple of years. For what it's worth, Dodge was not an equal recipient of that goodwill.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Intrepidatious

[RichardJensen]

if you look at this as a long term euthanization of the Dodge brand then the creation of Ram accomplished it's mission

 

There's not even the slightest bit of evidence that this was the long term plan, though. The death of the Dodge brand now is an unintentional consequence of the stupidity of creating the RAM brand.

 

There was no grand plan to phase out Dodge--or if there was, it was one of the stupidest implementations I've ever seen.

[atomcat68]

There's not even the slightest bit of evidence that this was the long term plan, though. The death of the Dodge brand now is an unintentional consequence of the stupidity of creating the RAM brand.

 

There was no grand plan to phase out Dodge--or if there was, it was one of the stupidest implementations I've ever seen.

I think the idea was in the dark days, it was a genuine fear that Dodge (and the Chrysler brand) may not survive, so they wanted to separate the trucks so that they could have an undamaged brand already established if Dodge did fail.

 

Hindsight being 20/20, I would have made:

Dodge- trucks only, no cars or SUV or car based CUV.

Chrysler - all cars and CUV. No SUV.

JEEP - all SUV, no CUV, cars, Compass, Patriot or pickups.

Alfa- Italian luxury

Fiat - Small cars, (made easy to tow by the Dodge tow trucks)

[AlRozzi]

Killing Dodge is a terrible plan. Even with Ram seperated out Dodge is still the company's highest volume brand. Through May; Dodge 268,442 Jeep 184,796 Ram 144,127 Chrysler 136,590 Fiat 17,562 Viper 129. (Not sure of the total SRT breakout)

 

Industry-wide Dodge is #7; Ford, Chevrolet, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Dodge... Add back Ram volume and Dodge jumps way ahead of Hyundai.

 

My opinion; Drop the brands Ram, SRT, Fiat and Alfa Romeo and put those vehicles into Dodge.

[papilgee4evaeva]

I'd like to add more detail to this model lineup...

 

Mass market in duplication only. Let's take a look at the current lineup:

Grand Caravan: Same as the T&C except lower retail sales and pricing. Two of the same vehicle in the same showroom ain't cutting it anymore. Fair point.
Charger: Same basic strategy as the 300 except lower retail and pricing. How long can you support two full-sized RWD vehicles? Hey, if Ford can make a business case for Taurus and MKS... and I would contend that 300 is profitable.
Durango: Overlaps with the Grand Cherokee except much lower sales and revenue. Seven seats reduces overlap. Can't explain why it doesn't sell though... it's an excellent vehicle.
Avenger: Need I even go there? When was the last time Dodge had a competitive Accord-Fusion-Camry-Malibu competitor? No argument there.

Challenger: Has been second tier in sales to Camaro and Mustang since it was introduced. Shared platform gives it some life.
Dart: The only shining star in the lineup and guess what? It isn't selling that incredibly. Ask yourself this: Would it have sold in greater numbers had it been a Toyota, Honda or even a Ford? ... or advertised better? Or didn't come with an uplevel engine that required premium fuel?

 

The only difference is I see Chrysler becoming more mainstream then it is now and covering some of the bases that Dodge did without the overlap and Fiat taking the smallest cars (with Chrysler still getting a Dart-sized compact). Chrysler and Jeep have actually has enjoyed press and marketing goodwill for the past couple of years. For what it's worth, Dodge was not an equal recipient of that goodwill.

 

That's what happened when Chrysler was acquired by merged with Daimler. They cheaped out on Chrysler to the extent that it went downmarket, and Dodge was all the worse.

 

Seems Chrysler is developing a bad habit of hooking up with these fancy European men named Zetsche and Marchionne who slowly sap them dry....

[rmc523]

I'd like to add more detail to this model lineup...

 

 

That's what happened when Chrysler was acquired by merged with Daimler. They cheaped out on Chrysler to the extent that it went downmarket, and Dodge was all the worse.

 

Seems Chrysler is developing a bad habit of hooking up with these fancy European men named Zetsche and Marchionne who slowly sap them dry....

 

Reading your thoughts on the Durango made me think - I seem to remember rumors of a 7-seat "Grand Wagoneer" coming from Jeep in the future, which if true would make the Durango redundant.

[silvrsvt]

Reading your thoughts on the Durango made me think - I seem to remember rumors of a 7-seat "Grand Wagoneer" coming from Jeep in the future, which if true would make the Durango redundant.

 

 

They keep going back and forth on this...

[PREMiERdrum]

They keep going back and forth on this...

 

Grand Wagoneer was shelved when the Durango facelift moved forward... I bet that the 7 seat Jeep is simply ready for if/when they fold Dodge.

[rmc523]

Grand Wagoneer was shelved when the Durango facelift moved forward... I bet that the 7 seat Jeep is simply ready for if/when they fold Dodge.

 

Oh, oops. Well, your second point here works anyway

 

To be honest, I forgot the Durango was getting a facelift haha.

Edited June 18, 2013 by rmc523