Question about the EPA investigation into Ford mpgs

[iamamultitasker]

Does anyone here know approximately how long it will take before the EPA announces its findings?

 

By my calculation, it's been over 6 months since the review was announced. If the EPA finds faults in Ford's testing, this might be a big problem for the company as so many reviewers have reported sub-advertised mpgs and several lawsuits have been instigated.

 

I'm hoping (and betting) that Ford has done the tests correctly. I'm guessing, however, that even if the EPA finds in favor of Ford the mpg tests will be overhauled.

[akirby]

There won't be a problem. Ford knows how to run those tests better than the EPA does and they are very very very very vigilant about them.

 

Ford has already asked the EPA to change the tests and/or the formula for the window stickers.

[NickF1011]

I'm guessing if the EPA does conclude that Ford performed the testing to the satisfaction of current regulations they'll want to make that announcement as quietly as possible to prevent egg on their own face by pointing out that their current testing regimen is flawed.

[jpd80]

The first thing the EPA will do is review Ford's testing methods and the data gathered data,

if that is in accordance with procedures, the review stops there.

 

And guess what that will do to the bulk of existing cases against Ford...

 

Since Ford and other manufacturers are required by law to present

those EPA city- Highway-combined mileage figures and they are

validated by the EPA, the law suits are then dead in the water

 

 

I'm guessing if the EPA does conclude that Ford performed the testing to the satisfaction of current regulations they'll want to make that announcement as quietly as possible to prevent egg on their own face by pointing out that their current testing regimen is flawed.

Give that man a cigar.

One more test needed, steady state 60 mph, very easy test to do and one that gives hybrids nowhere to hide and

diesels a chance to shine like the like Cruze diesel which seems to be getting close to 60 mpg in steady running.

Edited July 8, 2013 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

It could take up to a year. Bureaucracy, like academia, moves at its own pace.

[ANTAUS]

I'm not sure that even the EPA procedures are even realistic of real world performance and to think it was just overhauled years ago. Reality is manufacturer's just take time to squeeze the most MPGs. Anything from turning off a A/C compressor at JUST the right time, or the tire pattern, or the shift, can help extract more except in reality I dont know anyone that is really getting the EPA MPGS on their window stickers.

[RichardJensen]

Have you seen the test? There are so many different acceleration profiles and engine loads on that test that it would be difficult if not impossible to engineer to that test without yielding some real world advantage.

 

And as to the value of the test, the test's value is not necessarily its reflection of real world mileage, it's the test's uniformity. It is a reproducible largely standardized measure of every vehicle required to perform it.

[fordmantpw]

Have you seen the test? There are so many different acceleration profiles and engine loads on that test that it would be difficult if not impossible to engineer to that test without yielding some real world advantage.

 

And as to the value of the test, the test's value is not necessarily its reflection of real world mileage, it's the test's uniformity. It is a reproducible largely standardized measure of every vehicle required to perform it.

 

It seems like we have this discussion at least once a month, and we have to make the same exact statements to try to get people to understand that the EPA rating is NOT an estimate of the actual fuel mileage YOU will get when YOU drive the car the way YOU drive, but an actual tool to use to COMPARE models A, B, and C to get an idea of how each would do under IDENTICAL situations when compared to each other.

 

So, if car A is rated at 10 MPG, B is rated at 20 MPG, and C is rated at 30 MPG, the average consumer should expect to get about twice the MPG with B as they would with A, and thrice the MPG with C as they would with A. It DOES NOT MEAN that if YOU buy car C that you will get 30 MPG!

 

Can we have this added as a sticky somewhere? Sheesh!

[RichardJensen]

The people that would read the note are not the people that need it.

[jpd80]

People see the term EPA HWY Mileage and assume that's what they should get........

[chevys]

People see the term EPA HWY Mileage and assume that's what they should get........

on the HWY. I just drove a Cadillac SRX over 800 miles loaded with 4 people and all of their stuff. I drove it 75 mph with the AC blasting with no regard to fuel mileage. I got 23+ mpg out of it. Its rated at 17/24. Try that in a Cmax and let me know where you come in at. Since its rated at 47/47 I would expect it to deliver 45-46 easy right? It wont. The problem comes in with a big descrepancy on whats on the sticker when your xyz car gets within 1 mpg of the HWY sticker.

 

• I got my head tore off the last time this came up and I have my flame suit on. Hybrids and small EB engines to some degree are not delivering FE as promised. I blame the EPA but its disingenuous on Fords part also because if they are good enough to game the EPA they damn sure know what the real world results are. They are not stupid. The majority of car buyers are not enthusiasts and dont have a clue and they impulse buy. That is what Ford has banked on and its working well for them.

[Extreme4x4]

I'm not sure that even the EPA procedures are even realistic of real world performance and to think it was just overhauled years ago. Reality is manufacturer's just take time to squeeze the most MPGs. Anything from turning off a A/C compressor at JUST the right time, or the tire pattern, or the shift, can help extract more except in reality I dont know anyone that is really getting the EPA MPGS on their window stickers.

 

Then everyone you know drives like a maniac.

 

My 2013 Explorer Sport delivers above the EPA ratings almost constantly. This is driving in the mountains. This is driving in the deserts. This is driving at 20 degrees. This is driving at 116 degrees. This is driving like a normal human, with the cruise set at 72 on my way home from the valley. This is a journey that travels 80-100 miles and goes from 1100ft to 7200ft to 1300ft and back up to 5100ft................... with everything in between and plenty of curves. This gunning it sometimes also, and is all on regular fuel.

 

Saying that no one gets the EPA mileage rating is a bit disingenuous. Yes, I understand that you qualified that with the "I don't know anyone" phrase, but it is said in the context that it is impossible.

[pictor]

Then everyone you know drives like a maniac.

 

My 2013 Explorer Sport delivers above the EPA ratings almost constantly. This is driving in the mountains. This is driving in the deserts. This is driving at 20 degrees. This is driving at 116 degrees. This is driving like a normal human, with the cruise set at 72 on my way home from the valley. This is a journey that travels 80-100 miles and goes from 1100ft to 7200ft to 1300ft and back up to 5100ft................... with everything in between and plenty of curves. This gunning it sometimes also, and is all on regular fuel.

 

Saying that no one gets the EPA mileage rating is a bit disingenuous. Yes, I understand that you qualified that with the "I don't know anyone" phrase, but it is said in the context that it is impossible.

I believe that you are in the desert so it doesn't surprise me that you often meet or beat the estimate, I have noticed with our Edge and A4 that in the summer the MPG goes up 2 or 3 MPG over the winter conditions. I believe the disclaimer, your mileage may vary, says it all. The turbo charged A4 is more sensitive to the air temp than the Edge.

[ANTAUS]

Then everyone you know drives like a maniac.

 

My 2013 Explorer Sport delivers above the EPA ratings almost constantly. This is driving in the mountains. This is driving in the deserts. This is driving at 20 degrees. This is driving at 116 degrees. This is driving like a normal human, with the cruise set at 72 on my way home from the valley. This is a journey that travels 80-100 miles and goes from 1100ft to 7200ft to 1300ft and back up to 5100ft................... with everything in between and plenty of curves. This gunning it sometimes also, and is all on regular fuel.

 

Saying that no one gets the EPA mileage rating is a bit disingenuous. Yes, I understand that you qualified that with the "I don't know anyone" phrase, but it is said in the context that it is impossible.

Well if you call it disingeneous thats fine, realistically, I am confidently saying I do not know anyone personally, that I can TOUCH (not the online world), that hit those estimates. May it be because we are in FL and the cities we have lived in have a touch of road rage, so be it. BUt I'm ok with that, hey it can be 5MPG and I'm fine with that, like I tell people 'If you cant afford to pay, dont play", so personally it's not an issue. But its a constant conversation with others... its not uncommon I have friends from Miami coming up to Orlando to do the theme parks. Its customary that I'll then Drive their car, to the attraction (usually they have kids and such and I dont need that mess in my cars), and as soon as I hit their MPG estimate button on their car, I can see what hey have averaged on their vehicle. This past week, a Nissan Rogue (pos) and shes averaging 21.1 MPG. Granted, I do not think anyone really cares while they own the vehicle, it sucks that I bring it up to them, and then we just laugh and move on because really, not like anything can be done.

[RichardJensen]

if they are good enough to game the EPA

 

Yes. Because if mileage varies, it's because someone is cheating.

[akirby]

Since its rated at 47/47 I would expect it to deliver 45-46 easy right? It wont.

 

If you drive it EXACTLY like the EPA test (70 degrees ambient temp, no hills, very little A/C, fully charged battery, 4000+ miles, pure gasoline, no E-10, most common wheels and tires) you will get EPA mileage.

 

If you deviate you won't. Ford's hybrids and EB engines are more sensitive to driving style and conditions than other vehicles. As other mfrs catch up they'll have the same issue. It's not the vehicle, it's the test that doesn't yield the results you expect.

[akirby]

I blame the EPA but its disingenuous on Fords part also because if they are good enough to game the EPA they damn sure know what the real world results are.

 

This is the procedure. Drive the car per the EPA regulations and record the average fuel economy. Apply the formula to come up with the window sticker numbers. Publish the numbers on the window sticker as required by law.

 

Unless they're tampering with the vehicle itself (they're not) or running the test wrong (they're not) then there is absolutely no wiggle room for them to "game" anything.

 

Please provide a concrete example of how Ford is "gaming" the EPA test and what they should be doing that they're not doing.

[chevys]

This is the procedure. Drive the car per the EPA regulations and record the average fuel economy. Apply the formula to come up with the window sticker numbers. Publish the numbers on the window sticker as required by law.

 

Unless they're tampering with the vehicle itself (they're not) or running the test wrong (they're not) then there is absolutely no wiggle room for them to "game" anything.

 

Please provide a concrete example of how Ford is "gaming" the EPA test and what they should be doing that they're not doing.

Let me be clear. I have no doubt the hybrids or Eb engine powered cars wont meet the epa estimates on the sticker if you run them in a laboratory under the exact same conditions the epa does. They will and Ford is not at fault for playing by the rules.

 

When you run them back to back with a competitor there is no fudging. This is real world or as close as it gets.

 

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=371553

[RichardJensen]

When you run them back to back with a competitor there is no fudging.

 

This is precisely what the EPA tests do.

 

BTW: Do you know how long it takes to run the EPA test regimen, or what they involve?

[phil1336]

I`m certainly glad that the EPA is starting to audit and review both procedure and data that has been used to promote those catchy estimated Fuel Economy MPG numbers. Perhaps Ford will have to (adjust) some of their Labels too as HKAG..Hyundai/Kia Automotive Group was ordered to do. I happen to own both a 2011 Ford Fiesta SE Hatchback which I purchased new in July of 2010. I also own a 2012 Kia Rio5 LX Hatchback which I also purchased new in November of 2011. Both vehicles are B-Segment / Sub-Compact cars that have a 1.6 ltr 4 cyl engines and 6 speed automatic transmissions. The Kia Rio however has "GDI", gas direct injection, which not only gives better performance but was (supposed) to improve fuel economy as well. Both cars have similar weight and size and had almost identical EPA Fuel Estimates too. The Fiesta has delivered constant 33-35 mpg city & 41-43 mpg highway from the day I drove the vehicle off the Dealers lot. The Rio5 however, even after the much anticipated "break-in period) with 13K driven to date still maintains 24-25 mpg city and 31-33 mpg highway under identical driving conditions and A/C constantly engaged. Ford might have some explaining to do with some of its Fleet and its Fuel Economy Estimates but its Fiesta (for most of its Owners) has met or exceeded expectations. Job well done!

[4d4evr-1]

I'm not sure that even the EPA procedures are even realistic of real world performance and to think it was just overhauled years ago. Reality is manufacturer's just take time to squeeze the most MPGs. Anything from turning off a A/C compressor at JUST the right time, or the tire pattern, or the shift, can help extract more except in reality I dont know anyone that is really getting the EPA MPGS on their window stickers.

 

 

After break-in on our C-Max my wife and I are both getting better than the 47. Warm weather, driving during the day, driving with the traffic are your friends.

[fordmantpw]

After break-in on our C-Max my wife and I are both getting better than the 47. Warm weather, driving during the day, driving with the traffic are your friends.

 

That can't be, since, you know, NOBODY EVER meets or exceeds EPA ratings!

 

</sarcasm>

[jpd80]

After break-in on our C-Max my wife and I are both getting better than the 47. Warm weather, driving during the day, driving with the traffic are your friends.

Thank you, a Ford hybrid owner with a positive experience.

 

I'm convinced more than ever that MT with an agenda for grabbing screaming headlines and a vocal minority of disaffected

hybrid owners are coloring the views of potential buyers whilst the silent majority of owners are pleased with their vehicles.

[phil1336]

MT isn`t to fault anymore more or less then CR. They stay on one opinion and its near impossible to move them despite the fact that they don`t accept advertising. They have been smitten with Toyota, Honda, (except 2012 Civic) for decades. Now they are in in love with Hyundai and Kia. They gave Ford (reasonable) credit a few years ago but it was a quick "affair" and long over. In all fairness, MFT and SYNC did`nt help! Wonder why all the Ford C-MAX Owners in Florida haven`t been bragging on their Fuel Economy if warm weather is the cure?

Edited July 9, 2013 by phil1336

[NickF1011]

Wonder why all the Ford C-MAX Owners in Florida haven`t been bragging on their Fuel Economy if warm weather is the cure?

80% relative humidity.

 

And I hope you weren't referring to MT about not accepting advertising. They make a business of it.

Edited July 9, 2013 by NickF1011