RichardJensen Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) None of those would be missed. Do you know how many Edges Ford has sold since it was launched? EOL, last year, they still sold over 100k of them. Do you honestly believe that Ford could cut well over $3 billion dollars in revenue in the US alone without it being "missed" Edited April 10, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) None of those would be missed. MKT yes but, Edge is being sold globally, MKX is incremental product for Lincoln in Nth America and Exported to China MKC is incremental to escape production is sold in Nth America and and will be exported to China Edited April 10, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 None of those would be missed. Really? I don't think anyone would argue with the MKT's demise. But the others? Really? Just shows you have no grasp of where the industry is an what products are popular right now. If crossovers were so terrible and didn't sell, why would just about every brand (luxury brands especially) be adding new crossovers left and right? Just because they want to "lose money" in your hypothetical world? Wrong. It's a growing market where they can make a lot of money. The models that have been axed recently have been awkward "tweener" vehicles. Venza and Crosstour were nothing but slightly raised wagons - no wonder they failed - look in Ford's lineup - Flex and MKT have had the same problem. If your argument was that raised wagons do not make sense in a lineup and don't do well in the market, I don't think any of us would argue with you - Subaru seems to be the only brand that can pull that type of vehicle off, but they have a cult following. But you're arguing that entrants in the fastest growing segments in the industry should be dropped "just because" and/or because you don't like them. Just makes no sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Not in a vacuum. Straight off the F150 website (emphasis added): High-strength, military grade, aluminum-alloy body and high-strength steel frame for less weight yet greater strength Best-in-class towing and payload* Improved power-to-weight ratio across the entire 4-engine lineup for greater performance Better fuel efficiency by up to 20 percent over the previous year's F-150 They're talking up 'less weight' because that means more towing/payload, better performance, and better fuel economy in that order. In the realm of midsize cars, less weight gives you better performance--but that doesn't seem to be too high a priority for most customers. Richard, LOL Best-in-class towing and payload* Improved power-to-weight ratio across the entire 4-engine lineup for greater performance Better fuel efficiency by up to 20 percent over the previous year's F-150 All of these can be said about a sedan too. If its good for the F-150 its good for the Fusion too, can't have it both ways. Plus does that help sell more Trucks ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Richard, LOL Best-in-class towing and payload* Improved power-to-weight ratio across the entire 4-engine lineup for greater performance Better fuel efficiency by up to 20 percent over the previous year's F-150 All of these can be said about a sedan too. If its good for the F-150 its good for the Fusion too, can't have it both ways. Plus does that help sell more Trucks ? How many Fusion owners care about towing and payload? I'd reckon darn neart zero. Mid-size sedan buyers don't seem to be that concerned about power-to-weight ratios at this point either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 can be said Can be said, but aren't. And does 'more power and more payload' sell trucks? I don't know. Has truck power and payload increased over the past 20 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) Can be said, but aren't. And does 'more power and more payload' sell trucks? I don't know. Has truck power and payload increased over the past 20 years? Has sedan power and fuel economy increased over the last twenty years? You can't have it both ways. If light weight help trucks it helps cars too. Is light weight the over riding factor in sales? Probably not, but obviously Ford thinks it important enough to dedicate resources to it. Edited April 10, 2015 by Gnostic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 If light weight help trucks it helps cars too. obviously Ford thinks it important enough to dedicate resources to it. There's a weak correlation between weight and sales--so it's hard to see how weight 'helps' cars. And there's a big reason why Ford spent a fortune on aluminum for the F150. Ford's pickup range is expected to end the year as CAFE positive, for--probably--the first time ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) dare I say the ONLY time in a vehicle ( passenger ) where weight is of prime importance in in PERFORMANCE variants where 100lbs equates to an additional 10 horsepower. Otherwise if it was extremely important all cars would be manufactured along Alfa 4c and Lotus specs...yep, carpet free, NO sound insulation at all and exotic materials....so, how about a 2500lb Fusion for a mere $50k base model....should sell like hotcakes apparently.... Edited April 10, 2015 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 dare I say the ONLY time in a vehicle ( passenger ) where weight is of prime importance in in PERFORMANCE variants where 100lbs equates to an additional 10 horsepower. Otherwise if it was extremely important all cars would be manufactured along Alfa 4c and Lotus specs...yep, carpet free, NO sound insulation at all and exotic materials....so, how about a 2500lb Fusion for a mere $50k base model....should sell like hotcakes apparently.... Yes and no. How about a fusion size car that weight 3 tons and gets 10 mpg but its quiet with ground hugging weight. That would sell like hots cake too.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 point is, cars are a compromise...want to push questionable limits for a mainstream product, expect HUGE price increases........... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Flex and MKT struggle,because of the way they look. Way too polarizing... Ford missed the mark completely. Fusion sells because it is a very attractive car, that has competitive performance with it's competition . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Flex and MKT struggle,because of the way they look. Way too polarizing... Ford missed the mark completely. Fusion sells because it is a very attractive car, that has competitive performance with it's competition . MKT's problem isn't that it's polarizing - it's downright ugly. The reason Flex sells is BECAUSE of the polarizing styling. Flex buyers may not want an Edge or Explorer, and they're willing to pay higher ATPs for it. It's been especially important for conquest sales especially in California. But that only buys you so much ROI. If you don't want Flex then you already have Explorer (or a 3 row Edge). No need to add another one with a different tophat - wouldn't sell any better than Flex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Personally, ( aside from what I consider a backwards step stylistically front fascia wise ) I LOVE the Flex, and Californians agree....I also maintain its the best driver of the threesome, Explorer, Edge and Flex.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 The Flex is the station wagon for the "I'm not going to buy a station wagon" crowd. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Subaru seems to be the only brand that can pull that type of vehicle off, but they have a cult following. I agree with everything you said except this. Subaru is a main stream player, the safety image, simple packaging and value are working and driving huge market share gains, they have more market share than VW and Mazda and could have more sales if they had more product to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) I agree with everything you said except this. Subaru is a main stream player, the safety image, simple packaging and value are working and driving huge market share gains, they have more market share than VW and Mazda and could have more sales if they had more product to sell. They've definitely been growing (I haven't really paid attention to their sales results to be honest), so that's where my assessment comes. Yes they offer "mainstream" vehicles, but up until recently, their models didnt seem to catch on outside of their cult following.....that seems to be changing though. --- I didn't realize they had more market share than VW now.....so much for them taking over the world (or at least here). Edited April 10, 2015 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Subaru made their wagons more CUV/truck like, or per hipsters, "Sold out". LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) dare I say the ONLY time in a vehicle ( passenger ) where weight is of prime importance in in PERFORMANCE variants where 100lbs equates to an additional 10 horsepower. Otherwise if it was extremely important all cars would be manufactured along Alfa 4c and Lotus specs...yep, carpet free, NO sound insulation at all and exotic materials....so, how about a 2500lb Fusion for a mere $50k base model....should sell like hotcakes apparently.... That 100lbs, could be the difference between you magical EcoBoost engine getting crap mileage and getting as advertised mileage. Modern Ford engines are very sensitive to load, whether from aerodynamic drag or excessive mass. if the fusion weighed 3100lbs, it could use the Basic 2.0 GDI in the focus instead of the 2.5, with a better power to weight ratio. point is, cars are a compromise...want to push questionable limits for a mainstream product, expect HUGE price increases........... how can it be "questionable limits" if ford is the only Laggard in the field? I think it would be more questionable to why Ford is pushing the limits of obesity in the midsized segment. Edited April 12, 2015 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Seriously though, if Ford can switch to aluminum body of F150 and take the cost of aluminum out of the equation then surely those same savings are possible when changing cars and utilities to aluminum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Seriously though, if Ford can switch to aluminum body of F150 and take the cost of aluminum out of the equation then surely those same savings are possible when changing cars and utilities to aluminum. The problem is there is no free lunch. No matter what ford says there is a cost to moving to aluminum. To ignore the fact that ford cannot match the competition on lightweighting without moving to aluminum is a problem. This isn't an issue of everything else suck because they are lighter, it that ford refuses to decide what can be compromised to save weight. The mustang is perfect example of this dilemma. If the fusion moves to aluminum to reach parity with steel bodied rivals what happens when those rivals move to aluminum? ford has been relying on expensive technologies like ecoboost or 28 speed transmissions to mitigate the weight disadvantages of their products, but like the move to aluminum isn't a substitute for making tough decisions on weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 More like Ford has decided not to compromise durability, space and nvh or reduce profits by using expensive technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 it that ford refuses to decide what can be compromised to save weight Again, the CD4 platform is not a light one; EUCD was not light and its incrementally improved successor platform is also not light. There's little Ford can do about this right now. When you talk about the Mustang, it's worth noting that the next Camaro is expected to be roughly the same size and roughly the same weight as the Mustang. It's also worth noting that the Mustang is significantly lighter than both the Challenger and the Zeta Camaro. It is not as though *all* Ford products are heavier than their competitors. Trying to take weight out *after* the platform has been engineered is not a good idea. -- And as regards trucks; Ford's trucks have never suffered for being heavier than Dodge and Chevy trucks, nor is it likely that they will suffer going forward. While it's true that Ford is probably eating some costs with their new F-Series, it is also true that their trucks are now CAFE positive, which cannot be said about products from FCA OR GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) The world is not going to end because Ford is not immediately addressing weight issues with all vehicles. The issue here is one of priority and IMO, Ford has shown a better understanding of what earns money than competitors. - Ford has done Aluminum truck bodies where the competition could not follow. - Anything competitors have done with HT steel bodies can be done by Ford - Competitors are now starting to copy Ford's Ecoboost turbocharged engines. - Ford uses Ecoboost and 6-speed transmissions where competitors are going to 8 & 9-speed gearboxes. Edited April 12, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 And this summer, you can bet that Fusion will again have very impressive sales even though it is heavier than most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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