New Barracuda, Grand Cherokee Trackhawk coming soon

[fordmantpw]

Don't you get tired of everyone telling you you're wrong? You sure keep coming back for it over,and over and over again.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

He takes joy in getting others riled up. If he isn't causing a ruckus, he's not having fun. Wait, that sounds like my 10 year old son.

[akirby]

Some people thrive on being a contrarian.

[RichardJensen]

 

 

It was obvious what I meant. Yes it was easily as good.

 

So getting something for free is easily as good as borrowing money to buy something. Got it.

 

And yes, most of your posts are angry posts filled with angry rhetoric.

 

Sure, you can insist that your plainly angry language is not, in fact, angry, but that's your problem, not ours.

Edited August 28, 2015 by RichardJensen

[630land]

What is so funny is Mopar fans expect that Fiat [or another White Knight] should "bring back Plymouth" and the whole line up of 1970 era RWD cars. Don't they realize beggers can't be choosers? And how many times have they been 'on the ropes'?

 

But back to topic, so what if it's a "Dodge Cuda"? Even back in the glory days, Plym's and Dodges were built in same plants, same cars with different badges. Just A, B, C bodies. Maybe the Cuda will replace the Challenger name?

 

I also think the next gen Charger will be mid sized, but then who really knows? Fiat wants to make Alfa into "the new Audi", good luck!!

[RichardJensen]

Back on topic.

 

I'm not kidding about that British Leyland reference.

 

This sudden explosion of new models that--if legit--raises serious questions about how adequately they've been funded reminds me of 70s BL, which saw an explosion of nameplates that were poorly engineered and non-competitive.

 

The key point is that an undercapitalized company that has a narrow range of products and significant shortcomings in *those* products cannot produce a competent lineup by expansion.

[BlackHorse]

Don't you get tired of everyone telling you you're wrong? You sure keep coming back for it over,and over and over again.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

 

Everyone? lol There's like a handful of you guys that are on that bandwagon while the majority of the posters around here are not. Frankly I couldn't care less what you think. But thanks for partaking in the distortion of reality that is so common here.

Edited August 28, 2015 by BlackHorse

[BlackHorse]

 

So getting something for free is easily as good as borrowing money to buy something. Got it.

 

And yes, most of your posts are angry posts filled with angry rhetoric.

 

Sure, you can insist that your plainly angry language is not, in fact, angry, but that's your problem, not ours.

 

 

You lost this argument nine posts ago and as usual you just can't let it go. Feel free to keep beating the dead horse but none of what you say has any degree of credibility.

Edited August 28, 2015 by BlackHorse

[jpd80]

 

 

lol please do split hairs and distort facts to suit your agenda. I would expect nothing less. It was obvious what I meant. Yes it was easily as good. Chrysler got what they wanted and Ford got what they wanted and they both got it from the same source. Hence easily as good.

Yes , Ford supported GM and Chrysler to get needed financing to avoid CH7, but what Ford didn't expect was for the government

to help its competitors so much by wiping almost all previous debts clean in what was the great spin-Rinse.

Edited August 28, 2015 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

 

 

You lost this argument nine posts ago and as usual you just can't let it go. Feel free to keep beating the dead horse but none of what you say has any degree of credibility.

 

This statement certainly applies to one of us.

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

 

Everyone? lol There's like a handful of you guys that are on that bandwagon while the majority of the posters around here are not. Frankly I couldn't care less what you think. But thanks for partaking in the distortion of reality that is so common here.

So you don't care what anyone thinks. Ok, got it.

 

Why bother even posting and replying if you don't care?

[Anthony]

If you really are interested in some truth, check out threads over on Allpar. Lots of stuff posted by people that were there and insiders. Much of what has been reported in the industry blogs were only half correct or missing info.

 

I'm assuming there must be some interest based on the speculation and heated posts in this thread.

[RichardJensen]

Read a few pages.

 

I'm sticking w/my British Leyland analogy.

[BlackHorse]

So you don't care what anyone thinks. Ok, got it.

 

Why bother even posting and replying if you don't care?

 

 

 

 

 

Because I'm not interested in winning a popularity contest or seeing how many people I can get to agree with me by going along with the crowd. If that's your thing, have at it. I'm going to say what I think and I couldn't care less who agrees with it and who doesn't, especially on these automotive forums where going along with the crowd generally involves suspending your grasp of reality. That's the point of a forum as far as I'm concerned. If I just wanted to be party to a bunch of sycophants I'd join a frat or something.

Edited August 28, 2015 by BlackHorse

[jpd80]

Guys, with this set of announcements FCA is basically the second coming of British Leyland.

 

Those of you who don't know what British Leyland was are probably also the people who think that these plans are really awesome.

So, you're basically implying that future vehicles will be rebadges or at best slightly re-skinned versions of other FCA brands..

 

This could go either way because if the vehicles are done properly, you have a situation where it's an extension of the Ford-Lincoln plan

but spread across more brands..... the interesting part for me is whether FCA will stay with regional brands or try to push its Euro brands

much harder in North America, that has to be key here with so much investment in Fiat, Alfa Romero and Maseratti. I don't see any traction

for the brands in europe, the competition is mature and Fiats brand perception well in the toilet there...

 

I just hope that Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep get decent versions of future vehicles to keep going and pay for all of this

because let's face it, FCA Nth America is where all the money is coming from, that division needs to be protected too.

Edited August 28, 2015 by jpd80

[Fgts]

What is so funny is Mopar fans expect that Fiat [or another White Knight] should "bring back Plymouth" and the whole line up of 1970 era RWD cars. Don't they realize beggers can't be choosers? And how many times have they been 'on the ropes'?

 

But back to topic, so what if it's a "Dodge Cuda"? Even back in the glory days, Plym's and Dodges were built in same plants, same cars with different badges. Just A, B, C bodies. Maybe the Cuda will replace the Challenger name?

 

I also think the next gen Charger will be mid sized, but then who really knows? Fiat wants to make Alfa into "the new Audi", good luck!!

The Charger will stay it's current size though all new platform. The Challenger will stay on a drastically upgraded LX along with 300. The "Cuda" is smaller with no v8 or maybe a 5.7 as the top engine.

[fuzzymoomoo]

 

 

 

 

Because I'm not interested in winning a popularity contest or seeing how many people I can get to agree with me by going along with the crowd. If that's your thing, have at it. I'm going to say what I think and I couldn't care less who agrees with it and who doesn't, especially on these automotive forums where going along with the crowd generally involves suspending your grasp of reality. That's the point of a forum as far as I'm concerned. If I just wanted to be party to a bunch of sycophants I'd join a frat or something.

Your original statement said you don't care what people thing, so that tells me you don't care to even discuss it. Sure, RJ can come off as brash at times (I think everyone here has had a go around with him once or twice) but it's not really much of a discussion without some differing opinions

[RichardJensen]

So, you're basically implying that future vehicles will be rebadges or at best slightly re-skinned versions of other FCA brands..

 

Not just that. Remember that British Leyland also came about via a government sponsored merger between two less than optimally organized companies (BMC & Leyland Motors)

 

What you have is this sprawling but not very large company that has taken *some* well-advised steps toward product/platform/powertrain rationalization, but which also has glaring problems. Instead of addressing those problems head-on, the management seems to be bent on expanding the range significantly (lots of new Alfas, new Jeeps, a compact RWD coupe for Dodge apparently). The problem w/British Leyland's lineup in the 70s wasn't that there wasn't enough product. it was that there wasn't enough good product.

 

A company in FCA's position should be narrowing its focus, not blasting scattershot across the entire industry making a range of products broader than Ford Motor or Toyota with fewer resources to fund those products.

Edited August 28, 2015 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

 

Not just that. Remember that British Leyland also came about via a government sponsored merger between two less than optimally organized companies (BMC & Leyland Motors)

 

What you have is this sprawling but not very large company that has taken *some* well-advised steps toward product/platform/powertrain rationalization, but which also has glaring problems. Instead of addressing those problems head-on, the management seems to be bent on expanding the range significantly (lots of new Alfas, new Jeeps, a compact RWD coupe for Dodge apparently). The problem w/British Leyland's lineup in the 70s wasn't that there wasn't enough product. it was that there wasn't enough good product.

 

A company in FCA's position should be narrowing its focus, not blasting scattershot across the entire industry making a range of products broader than Ford Motor or Toyota with fewer resources to fund those products.

The question I have is whether Fiat intends to expand the footprint of Fiat, Alfa romero and Massarati in North America

or is this platform sharing part of a regionalzed deal where the Nth American products get versions and the Europeans get there.

 

Part of the issue is that Fiat owns Chrysler and the Nth American brands but also has obligations to raise the stature of its Euro brands.

Expecting North American operations to fund the whole ting is a bit rich but what are the options?

 

Even though Fiat's running of Chrysler is suspect, the shining hope is that they get some good platforms and cars for Nth America

and if that helps reduce costs for the European brands, then so be it.... I just don't see the Euro brands having as much penetration as expected.

[RichardJensen]

the shining hope is that they get some good platforms and cars for Nth America

 

And that's the thing: When you've got two companies that have--generally speaking--subpar products and bad organization, and you merge them, you're not going to get outstanding products and good organization out of the deal. I mean, this "Alfa RWD" platform is just a classic example.

 

If it pays for itself, its going to be off volume from NA brand product (Chrysler, Dodge), but the whole conception of it is backwards, as though it's a platform that Alfa has developed that Dodge/Chrysler "get" to use--probably with compromises. And what engineers at FCA know the first thing about developing a world-class luxury car platform in the first place?

 

The money Alfa used to develop this platform came from NA ops, and the idea that the fruits of NA revenue are trickling back to NA ops via an "Alfa" platform is just--it's so Byzantine and backwards that the only thing I can think of is "British Leyland"

Edited August 29, 2015 by RichardJensen

[rmc523]

The question I have is whether Fiat intends to expand the footprint of Fiat, Alfa romero and Massarati in North America

or is this platform sharing part of a regionalzed deal where the Nth American products get versions and the Europeans get there.

 

Part of the issue is that Fiat owns Chrysler and the Nth American brands but also has obligations to raise the stature of its Euro brands.

Expecting North American operations to fund the whole ting is a bit rich but what are the options?

 

Even though Fiat's running of Chrysler is suspect, the shining hope is that they get some good platforms and cars for Nth America

and if that helps reduce costs for the European brands, then so be it.... I just don't see the Euro brands having as much penetration as expected.

I have no doubt that is their goal to get Alfa here and expand Maserati. They have crazy sales projections. No way they come close without Alfa/Maserati expansion (not that they will anyway, but the plan certainly includes it).

[jpd80]

I have no doubt that is their goal to get Alfa here and expand Maserati. They have crazy sales projections. No way they come close without Alfa/Maserati expansion (not that they will anyway, but the plan certainly includes it).

That's my concern, Fiat expects the Alfas and Maserati to do amazing things whilst being sold alongside Chrysler Nth America products.

Something has to give, either the Chrysler based products will be very sub-par or if they're just as good, upstage the Italians big time.

Edited August 29, 2015 by jpd80

[rmc523]

That's my concern, Fiat expects the Alfas and Maserati to do amazing things whilst being sold alongside Chrysler Nth America products.

Something has to give, either the Chrysler based products will be very sub-par or if they're just as good, upstage the Italians big time.

See, I feel like Chryco has been bumped town the totem pole since their acquisition. Whether correct or not (pre Fiat), I always viewed Dodge as their mainstream (Ford, Chevy) brand, with Chrysler as their step up (more toward Lincoln and Cadillac) brand, and Jeep kinda off on its own.

 

Since the Fiat acquisition, we've seen Dodge relegated to "performance brand" status with a few models, with Chrysler becoming the mainstream brand yet it only has a midsize sedan, full size sedan and minivan, though Jeep has expanded. Anyway, I feel like Chryco has been limited in order to leave space for Fiat to bring Alfa here as their luxury brand. Maserati, alternatively, I've always viewed as a higher end brand, so I don't really have a problem with their expansion.

[Ron W.]

Slightly off topic but please tell me I'm not the only one here that knows the difference between s government loan and a government bailout.

[fordmantpw]

Slightly off topic but please tell me I'm not the only one here that knows the difference between s government loan and a government bailout.

 

I'm pretty sure Blackhorse is the only one here that doesn't understand the difference.

 

However, I've talked to quite a few anti-Ford folks who cannot fathom that there is a difference between the two.

[jpd80]

There is a slight dfference with Chrysler, all the bankruptcy exit financing was paid back when Fiat refinanced to get lower interest rates.

I'm sure that the government did lose some money along the line but nothing like the amount lost when treasury sold down its GM stock.