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Biker16

New Getrag Mild hybrid technology.

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Fusion TT builds have already come off the line at FRAP, and the ones that are out in the open have camo on them

Yeah I've seem the Camo ones around here and there, along with the MKZ. Just not the long lines of them - where they run 10/15 in a line and cruse the freeways of metro Detroit for pothole shock testing. Been seeing a few more of the T6 Rangers around than normal, including one with the facelift, and finally saw the new Everest last week on Oakwood. Also been seeing the new Chinese Taurus, there is something about it that makes it looks like a very expensive car, subdued but classy.

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Yeah I've seem the Camo ones around here and there, along with the MKZ. Just not the long lines of them - where they run 10/15 in a line and cruse the freeways of metro Detroit for pothole shock testing. Been seeing a few more of the T6 Rangers around than normal, including one with the facelift, and finally saw the new Everest last week on Oakwood. Also been seeing the new Chinese Taurus, there is something about it that makes it looks like a very expensive car, subdued but classy.

How long ago was that? Those may have come from either Mexico or pilot. The ones we built were only built last week, and AFAIK, most, if not all are still on the grounds at FRAP

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The ICE directly drives the wheels in the HF35. There is a complete mechanical connection through the ring gear and the intershaft to the differential. Note the diagram above.

 

the eCVT Requires the MG1 to set the gear ratio, so the MG1 has to always be acting as a motor or acting as a generator.

 

please See the Diagram at the link below, MG1 is used a Fulcrum in the CVT.

 

http://eahart.com/prius/psd/%C2%A0

 

 

I don't understand the rest of your post.

 

Surely you anticipate that the starter used in conjunction with the hybrid DCT will be start/stop enabled.

 

And certainly, you cannot say categorically that the starter/generator in the HF35 is more expensive or more complex than the combined cost of a starter and alternator.

 

What I am assuming is that the Motor/generator in the DCT will act as the only alternator using the native neutral Idle of the DCT to power Accessories, since when the vehicle is moving the M/G is spinning too. The only time the MG isn't Moving is when the Car is stopped and the Engine is off. There isn't a Clutch that Disconnects the Motor From the axle, unlike the ICE which has separate path through Clutch #1.

 

In theory.

 

Finally, the primary motor in the HF35 transaxle would not be more or less powerful/expensive than a comparable motor in the hybrid DCT as both motors would be required to provide similar power in similar applications (that is, if you want to power a vehicle up to 80MPH in electric only mode, you need so many watts of power, regardless of whether it's coming through the HF35 or this new design).

 

If you want to do a mild hybrid that does little more than store a bit of braking energy for a bit of assistance with acceleration, yes, you will be able to get by with a small motor, but you're also going to get minimal FE gains (viz. the GM mild hybrids).

 

This is true.

Edited by Biker16

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the eCVT Requires the MG1 to set the gear ratio, so the MG1 has to always be acting as a motor or acting as a generator

 

That does not mean that there is no direct mechanical connection between the ICE and the differential.

 

Additionally, I would point out that as the alternator needs to run continuously with a conventional ICE, you're not exactly imposing additional parasitic losses by spinning a generator instead.

 

--

 

I have my doubts about the ability of the DCT motor to replace an alternator for the simple reason that, as you point out, it can't spin when the car is not in motion, that means that essentially the engine can't run at idle in park.

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Intrepid, the backorder numbers have tickled 55k in the past with >12 week waits. Ford was forced to change their own rules about warranty due to these numbers.

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Intrepid, the backorder numbers have tickled 55k in the past with >12 week waits. Ford was forced to change their own rules about warranty due to these numbers.

 

Wow.

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A dual motor hybrid system does have more flexibility than a single motor design, and potential for higher efficiency over a wider range of operating conditions. Getrag is probably going with single motor for multiple reasons that are dictated by their transmission layout and cost considerations. It is a pretty good design, and should work well for whichever automaker(s) implement it. But there is a reason that two emotor designs are so popular and that many new implementations of hybrid systems are 2 emotor. The new GM system for the upcoming Malibu hybrid for example.

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How long ago was that? Those may have come from either Mexico or pilot. The ones we built were only built last week, and AFAIK, most, if not all are still on the grounds at FRAP

MKZ started showing up around 4 months ago, Fusions maybe 3 months. Haven't seen them in and out of the pilot plant yet, just the main engineering campus and the old EEE (I have no idea what it's called now) building. Pilot seems to be Focus and a few new Escapes of late. There's been some strange vehicles out at night in full camo towing, One was a minivan/wagon looking thing and the other was about the size of an Edge but taller both in heavy camo. The other interesting thing was slightly smaller than the C-Max an but more upright with no exhaust system. Saw that a few months ago but haven't seen it recently.

 

I don't think people actually realize how much real world engineering and testing is done. Computers and such have helped but a lot of durability miles are just them driving cars non stop for days and days all over to get miles on them to see how they hold up in the real world.

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MKZ started showing up around 4 months ago, Fusions maybe 3 months. Haven't seen them in and out of the pilot plant yet, just the main engineering campus and the old EEE (I have no idea what it's called now) building. Pilot seems to be Focus and a few new Escapes of late. There's been some strange vehicles out at night in full camo towing, One was a minivan/wagon looking thing and the other was about the size of an Edge but taller both in heavy camo. The other interesting thing was slightly smaller than the C-Max an but more upright with no exhaust system. Saw that a few months ago but haven't seen it recently.

 

I don't think people actually realize how much real world engineering and testing is done. Computers and such have helped but a lot of durability miles are just them driving cars non stop for days and days all over to get miles on them to see how they hold up in the real world.

 

I wonder if some of those are related to the "hybrid" line they were considering/are launching?

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MKZ started showing up around 4 months ago, Fusions maybe 3 months. Haven't seen them in and out of the pilot plant yet, just the main engineering campus and the old EEE (I have no idea what it's called now) building.

Those were definitely built at the pilot plant. Just because they aren't going in and out of there regularly doesn't mean anything.

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That does not mean that there is no direct mechanical connection between the ICE and the differential.

 

There is a connection, but That connection either Requires the Either Resistance or Assistance From the motors.

 

The ICE can spin faster or slower, depending on how much power is needed, and with either resistance or assistance from the electric motors the car can reach the desired speed while always keeping the ICE running at the most efficient rate possible

 

Which is the reason eCVTs are not as good as Traditional ICEs at Steady State cruising.

 

Additionally, I would point out that as the alternator needs to run continuously with a conventional ICE, you're not exactly imposing additional parasitic losses by spinning a generator instead.

 

Modern Alternators are controlled by the ECU and don't have a constant fixed resistance. perfect example of the this is The Smart charging system on newer fords, that increases Alternator drag when coasting or decelerating to charge the battery. this also has the ability to reduce Load during acceleration.

 

there is always a loss, but losses are variable depending on conditions.

 

I have my doubts about the ability of the DCT motor to replace an alternator for the simple reason that, as you point out, it can't spin when the car is not in motion, that means that essentially the engine can't run at idle in park.

 

It is possible for the eDCT to charge at Idle. (how?) engage Clutch 2 and place Transmission 2 in neutral, this would spin the M/G producing power.

 

The more in look at that Video the more questions I have about the system.

 

Off the top of my head

 

You essentially have Two transmissions:

one Gas only

one gas and electric.

 

The ICE can only operate one Transmission at a time.

While the MG can operate one Transmission at a time, (except it can spin at a different Input speed than the ICE) so MG can assist the ICE.

 

because of the nature of Electric motors, there is far less inertia involved in freewheeling the motor, vs the ICE, thus there isn't a need to ever disconnect the MG from the transmission.

 

The normal operation of the DCT means both transmissions are always connected to the Axle, where the next Gear is pre-selected by the ECU, meaning that both input shafts are always being driven unless they are in neutral.

 

Example is taking off in 1st gear (Transmission #1) at 15mph the ICE is spinning at 3000 rpm, the input shaft (transmission 2) is spinning at 2300rpm, in 2nd gear where the MG is either assisting or generating power.

 

so in theory you can eliminate the alternator.

 

For Idle Starts:

you would engage clutch 2, Transmission 2 is already in neutral because its stopped, and use the MG To spin the input shaft connected to the ICE.

 

For takeoff Starts:

 

Option 1

Transmission 2 would engage 2nd gear, The (Stopped)ICE would be disengaged from both transmissions. The MG would initiate crawl up to 3mph, than the ICE would engage clutch 1 (transmission 1) 1st gear. Which would have the input shaft spinning at 600rpm enough to start the ICE.

 

 

Option 2

 

Transmission 2 would engage neutral, Transmission 1 would engage 1st gear. The (Stopped)ICE would engage transmission 2 MG would spin input shaft to 600 RPM Start the ICE, ICE would disengage Transmission 2 and engage transmission 1 in 1st gear. MG would engage 2nd gear to assist or charge.

 

This could be done in milliseconds

 

In theory.

 

 

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The ICE can spin faster or slower, depending on how much power is needed, and with either resistance or assistance from the electric motors the car can reach the desired speed while always keeping the ICE running at the most efficient rate possible

 

Modern Alternators are controlled by the ECU and don't have a constant fixed resistance. perfect example of the this is The Smart charging system on newer fords, that increases Alternator drag when coasting or decelerating to charge the battery. this also has the ability to reduce Load during acceleration.

 

As may be clearly seen in your two comments here, both modern alternators and the motor/generator in the eCVT can be precisely controlled to maximize efficiency.

 

I've yet to see a citation for your claim that eCVTs are less efficient at steady state cruising.

 

Further, while you have provided a plausible mechanism by which the motor in this transmission could function as a generator, it does not match the diagram in the video and, conspicuously, Getrag does not refer to it as a generator in its press materials. At no point does Getrag imply that the motor provides generating capacity.

 

Your claim that you could 'put transmission 2 in neutral' doesn't hold up to closer inspection. There's no 'downstream' clutch that would enable the ICE to spin the shaft that the electric motor is mounted to without also spinning the ring gear on the diff. Conceivably, you could put a clutch there, but this design does not have one.

 

I would also point out that there is no definite need for two electric motors in any planetary CVT-style hybrid system either. The second motor is added because the system is more efficient with two motors instead of one. There's no reason to believe that this transmission somehow makes the pairing of smaller and larger electric motors less efficient.

Edited by RichardJensen

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As may be clearly seen in your two comments here, both modern alternators and the motor/generator in the eCVT can be precisely controlled to maximize efficiency.

 

I've yet to see a citation for your claim that eCVTs are less efficient at steady state cruising.

 

Further, while you have provided a plausible mechanism by which the motor in this transmission could function as a generator, it does not match the diagram in the video and, conspicuously, Getrag does not refer to it as a generator in its press materials. At no point does Getrag imply that the motor provides generating capacity.

 

Your claim that you could 'put transmission 2 in neutral' doesn't hold up to closer inspection. There's no 'downstream' clutch that would enable the ICE to spin the shaft that the electric motor is mounted to without also spinning the ring gear on the diff. Conceivably, you could put a clutch there, but this design does not have one.

 

I would also point out that there is no definite need for two electric motors in any planetary CVT-style hybrid system either. The second motor is added because the system is more efficient with two motors instead of one. There's no reason to believe that this transmission somehow makes the pairing of smaller and larger electric motors less efficient.

I appreciate you taking the Time to reply to my post.

 

A comment.

eCVT

MG1 Ring gear

MG2 planetary gear.

ICE sun gear.

 

The Ring gear is directly tied to the speed of the wheels.

 

the 2nd motor or MG2 controls the the speed of the planetary gear on the CVT, and the Overall ratio of the Transaxle.

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That may be how the Prius system works, but if you'll notice the diagram of the HF35, you'll see that the second motor is outside the planetary system on an intermediary shaft.

 

Essentially you can get a CVT effect from any planetary gear set by allowing all three components to rotate.

 

If the ratio of the input to the output in a conventional planetary system is "total planetary teeth" / "sun teeth", you have a fixed ratio.

 

However, if you allow the ring gear to rotate as well, you are effectively creating an open differential. Thus, in the same way that the rotational ratio between the inner and outer wheels on a differential is continuously variable, so too the rotational speed of the sun gear, planetary gears and ring gear are continuously variable.

 

What the eCVT systems do is control the load on the gear/gearset connected to the motor/generator in order to set the driveshaft output ratio.

Edited by RichardJensen

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That may be how the Prius system works, but if you'll notice the diagram of the HF35, you'll see that the second motor is outside the planetary system on an intermediary shaft.

 

Essentially you can get a CVT effect from any planetary gear set by allowing all three components to rotate.

 

If the ratio of the input to the output in a conventional planetary system is "total planetary teeth" / "sun teeth", you have a fixed ratio.

 

However, if you allow the ring gear to rotate as well, you are effectively creating an open differential. Thus, in the same way that the rotational ratio between the inner and outer wheels on a differential is continuously variable, so too the rotational speed of the sun gear, planetary gears and ring gear are continuously variable.

 

What the eCVT systems do is control the load on the gear/gearset connected to the motor/generator in order to set the driveshaft output ratio.

It really is brilliant and simple.

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That may be how the Prius system works, but if you'll notice the diagram of the HF35, you'll see that the second motor is outside the planetary system on an intermediary shaft.

 

Essentially you can get a CVT effect from any planetary gear set by allowing all three components to rotate.

 

If the ratio of the input to the output in a conventional planetary system is "total planetary teeth" / "sun teeth", you have a fixed ratio.

 

However, if you allow the ring gear to rotate as well, you are effectively creating an open differential. Thus, in the same way that the rotational ratio between the inner and outer wheels on a differential is continuously variable, so too the rotational speed of the sun gear, planetary gears and ring gear are continuously variable.

 

What the eCVT systems do is control the load on the gear/gearset connected to the motor/generator in order to set the driveshaft output ratio.

 

 

what controls the speed of the Planetary gear? if not the motor than what?

 

you cannot have a Variable ratio transmission with clutches and a single planetary gearset.

 

in a simple planetary gear set there has to always be one part either the Sun, planet or the ring gear fixed. and that only gets you 2 speeds unless a more complex gear set is used.

 

 

The ford system is the same basic system as the Toyota system, as it always has been from the Aisin supplied unit 10 years ago to today. the ford diagram doesn't do a good job explainng Things.

 

TranX-6.jpg

 

Notice it says "HF35 strategy takes advantages of known, robust transaxle design"

 

I.E. it is an evolution of the basic architecture shared with the Prius.

Edited by Biker16

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Further, while you have provided a plausible mechanism by which the motor in this transmission could function as a generator, it does not match the diagram in the video and, conspicuously, Getrag does not refer to it as a generator in its press materials. At no point does Getrag imply that the motor provides generating capacity.

 

the press material mention the ablity of the motor to act as a generator for regenerative braking.

 

Your claim that you could 'put transmission 2 in neutral' doesn't hold up to closer inspection. There's no 'downstream' clutch that would enable the ICE to spin the shaft that the electric motor is mounted to without also spinning the ring gear on the diff. Conceivably, you could put a clutch there, but this design does not have one.

 

the electric motor connected to the input shaft not the output shafts.

 

in a DCT there is always a gear engaged on both trans missions, because the ECU anticipates the next gear so the motor is always spinning.

 

getrag doesn't explain much about the transmission, i assume this is because the manufacturers are responsible for the programming.

 

GETRAG HybridDrive 7HDT300 The Optimized Hybridization

Edited by Biker16

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the press material mention the ablity of the motor to act as a generator for regenerative braking.

 

Because the wheels are still moving.

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in a simple planetary gear set there has to always be one part either the Sun, planet or the ring gear fixed.

 

As I mentioned before on at least two occasions, there are no fixed gears in this planetary gearset.

 

I'm not going to reply further to this thread, as you are once again responding to my posts without reading them. That doesn't end well.

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Because the wheels are still moving.

 

thats is where neutral comes in it disconnects the input shaft from the output shaft.

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As I mentioned before on at least two occasions, there are no fixed gears in this planetary gearset.

 

I'm not going to reply further to this thread, as you are once again responding to my posts without reading them. That doesn't end well.

 

there is difference between not read what you post and not agreeing with what you posted.

 

in this case I don't believe you understand what you are talking about.

 

I'm done.

 

Edited by Biker16

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Interesting debate about the powertrain, but as long as the batteries that power this thing are better integrated into the vehicle than in the Fusion and C-Max Energi, I'll be happy!

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Interesting debate about the powertrain, but as long as the batteries that power this thing are better integrated into the vehicle than in the Fusion and C-Max Energi, I'll be happy!

You mean not having a spare tire and having a huge box that takes up the back of the car isn't good packaging? Totally off topic but MKZ hybrids should come with run-flat tires and those should at least be optional on the other Ford Hybrids. Wonder why you see so many new MKZ/Fusions on a tow truck? Because they don't have a spare tire and they have to be towed to the dealer or tire store to have a tire fixed.

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OTOH a lot of hybrid buyers want a regular vehicle like a Fusion, not a bespoke model like a Volt. Don't think there is much room for batteries elsewhere unless you completely re-engineer the platform itself.

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