AlRozzi Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Why do some believe that electric powered cars are zero-emission? Something has to be burned or cooked to get that battery charged up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Why do some believe that electric powered cars are zero-emission? Something has to be burned or cooked to get that battery charged up. Hydro, solar, wind, nuclear? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Hydro, solar, wind, nuclear? Geothermal (New Zealand), Wave motion / ocean currents and tides....Not major suppliers but areas to explore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Why do some believe that electric powered cars are zero-emission? Something has to be burned or cooked to get that battery charged up. Or how about what is mined and what damage that mining does to the environment to get to the heavy metals required to make a battery. Lithium doesn't grow on trees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlRozzi Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Is not nuclear on the most hated list along with oil? Wind and solar are unreliable and what about the needed scale for one billion cars, not to mention all the other areas of electrical needs? Wind mills are destructive to the environment, being noisy and scares and kills wildlife. I'll believe it when I see it. Point is, there exists no panacea in energy generation. As for China outlawing gasoline and diesel cars, I think there may be a hidden agenda. As it stands today in China, it is the cities where wealth is centered, and also where air pollution is a problem. By mandating electric cars, it cleans up the air in urban, wealth centers and transfers air pollution to the poor by burning coal in plants in ruaral areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnLover Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Why do some believe that electric powered cars are zero-emission? Something has to be burned or cooked to get that battery charged up. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Why do some believe that electric powered cars are zero-emission? Something has to be burned or cooked to get that battery charged up. It's not just charging the battery, it's making the battery too. I heard this on Autoline after Hours. Lithium-Ion batteries have to be baked, in an oven, for six weeks before they're fully functional. An enormous amount of energy is required to heat that oven. That energy, now, comes from natural gas, coal, you name it. This is why Musk is building his giga-battery factory in Nevada, so they can use solar power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Why do some believe that electric powered cars are zero-emission? Something has to be burned or cooked to get that battery charged up. Did you see my earlier post about this? http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/63800-lincoln-plans-electrified-lineup-all-models-by-2022/?p=1008933 Yes, right now, and for the foreseeable future, we'll be burning something to generate at least a portion of our electricity. But even with today's grid, EVs are still a huge improvement, and they are getting cleaner as time goes by. Wind and solar are becoming increasingly cost competitive, even when taking into account their intermittency, and natural gas plants are way cleaner and more efficient than coal. Probably even more importantly, natural gas plants are much more flexible than coal, which means they are the perfect partner to make up for variable sources. Longer term, demand response (flexible loads that can respond to the variability of renewables, EVs are a perfect example), energy storage (batteries, pumped hydro), and geographic diversity can also help deal with variable generation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlRozzi Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 It's not just charging the battery, it's making the battery too. I heard this on Autoline after Hours. Lithium-Ion batteries have to be baked, in an oven, for six weeks before they're fully functional. An enormous amount of energy is required to heat that oven. That energy, now, comes from natural gas, coal, you name it. This is why Musk is building his giga-battery factory in Nevada, so they can use solar power. Yes. And the last time I looked, the sun is on fire. Energy is all about burning stuff. Besides, without the suns heat, there would not be any wind, nor waves for that matter, not to mention solar radiation. Our very lives depend upon burning stuff and making heat. What does this have to do with electric propelled Lincolns? Maybe there is a need for a "solar gold metallic" edition with leather seats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 As for China outlawing gasoline and diesel cars, I think there may be a hidden agenda. As it stands today in China, it is the cities where wealth is centered, and also where air pollution is a problem. By mandating electric cars, it cleans up the air in urban, wealth centers and transfers air pollution to the poor by burning coal in plants in ruaral areas. Regarding China, they've already surpassed their latest 5-year plan (2016-2020) to install 105GW of solar. 35GW of that was installed this year alone. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/08/22/china-continues-massive-solar-installations-10-52-gw-july-already-exceeds-2020-target/ If you don't have a good feel for the scale of these numbers, most nuclear plants in the US are around 1-2GW. Even when you account for the capacity factor (around 25-30% for solar) that should give you an appreciation for the progress that's being made in China. Certainly the air pollution in the cities is a major driver, regardless of where the power plants are located. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailhiker Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 The earth rotates at 1000mph. If we could only find out how to harness that energy. I know they were working on tidal energy from ocean waves at one point. Did anything come out of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Whats the life span on Solar panels? 20 years? I've seen that articles that they can't be recycled or anything like that, so all we are doing is adding more waste that needs to be buried/burned some place. At least lithium batteries are recyclable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Whats the life span on Solar panels? 20 years? I've seen that articles that they can't be recycled or anything like that, so all we are doing is adding more waste that needs to be buried/burned some place. At least lithium batteries are recyclable Expected life span is 30 years. Typical warranties are 20-25 years for 80-90% of original rated capacity. In other words, guaranteed to produce 80-90% of rated power for 20-25 years. Based on how thin the actual panels are, I can't see there would be much scrap if they are not recyclable. The frames are Al, so that's recyclable. We're currently producing about 90-100% of our yearly power needs with solar. We're over-producing in the sunny months and under-producing in the winter, for an all-electric house. All from 36 - 3'x5' panels. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 Expected life span is 30 years. Typical warranties are 20-25 years for 80-90% of original rated capacity. In other words, guaranteed to produce 80-90% of rated power for 20-25 years. Based on how thin the actual panels are, I can't see there would be much scrap if they are not recyclable. The frames are Al, so that's recyclable. We're currently producing about 90-100% of our yearly power needs with solar. We're over-producing in the sunny months and under-producing in the winter, for an all-electric house. All from 36 - 3'x5' panels. It'll be interesting to see how Tesla's roof tiles look in person and how well they function. It could be big, as I'm sure there's a ton of people out there that are interested in solar once it becomes affordable (probably the biggest hurdle), but also looks good - people don't necessarily want to look at the giant solar panels on their roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 It'll be interesting to see how Tesla's roof tiles look in person and how well they function. It could be big, as I'm sure there's a ton of people out there that are interested in solar once it becomes affordable (probably the biggest hurdle), but also looks good - people don't necessarily want to look at the giant solar panels on their roof. I know I'm interested...I pay about $190 a month for electric and I need a new roof sooner than later...within the next 5 years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 I know I'm interested...I pay about $190 a month for electric and I need a new roof sooner than later...within the next 5 years or so. I've wondered what pricing is like compared to a traditional roof. I'm sure it's more expensive, but how much more I don't know. A concern here would be are they hurricane rated too - I think I saw on the website they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) It'll be interesting to see how Tesla's roof tiles look in person and how well they function. It could be big, as I'm sure there's a ton of people out there that are interested in solar once it becomes affordable (probably the biggest hurdle), but also looks good - people don't necessarily want to look at the giant solar panels on their roof. Yeah, I'm interested in seeing how those do. I think they will be a great option if priced decently and the installation cost isn't astronomical. I'm looking at about a 15-18 year payback on my panels IF electric rates stay the same as they are today (which we know they won't). I have them on my detached garage, so even though I can see them from my house, it doesn't look that bad. Edited September 13, 2017 by fordmantpw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 Yeah, I'm interested in seeing how those do. I think they will be a great option if priced decently and the installation cost isn't astronomical. I'm looking at about a 15-18 year payback on my panels IF electric rates stay the same as they are today (which we know they won't). I have them on my detached garage, so even though I can see them from my house, it doesn't look that bad. IMG_0089.JPG It all depends on the style of your house too... They don't look bad on your garage there, but the garage and roof are a more industrial look to begin with. Compare that to how they look on barrel tile roofs (which are very common down here), and they look out of place: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 It all depends on the style of your house too... They don't look bad on your garage there, but the garage and roof are a more industrial look to begin with. Compare that to how they look on barrel tile roofs (which are very common down here), and they look out of place: Oh, I definitely agree. Many houses around here have black shingle roofs, and the solar panels actually blend in pretty well. I likely would not have put them on my house, simple because I'm averse to putting holes in the roof of my house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Oh, I definitely agree. Many houses around here have black shingle roofs, and the solar panels actually blend in pretty well. I likely would not have put them on my house, simple because I'm averse to putting holes in the roof of my house. I agree. I would much rather put them on my garage where if one of those holes leaks it's not a huge issue My problem there is the next door neighbor has a huge sycamore tree that hangs mostly over my garage and so between that and the woods our property backs up to the garage is mostly in shade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I agree. I would much rather put them on my garage where if one of those holes leaks it's not a huge issue My problem there is the next door neighbor has a huge sycamore tree that hangs mostly over my garage and so between that and the woods our property backs up to the garage is mostly in shade. Yeah, that's a big issue with solar...you have to have a clear view of the southern or western sky. When we built our house, I made sure the shed roof faced nearly due south for optimal efficiency, and the trees are on the north side. That's not an option for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Where there's lots of new houses and not so many trees, there's an opportunity to include solar panels from the get go. More in the line of reducing power usage during the day and paying for power as the peak load dies back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Yeah, that's a big issue with solar...you have to have a clear view of the southern or western sky. When we built our house, I made sure the shed roof faced nearly due south for optimal efficiency, and the trees are on the north side. That's not an option for everyone. I could easily put them on the roof of my house, it bakes in the sun year round (detached garage). Heck, the panels would probably help keep the house a little cooler in the summer. I just can't get past purposely drilling holes in the roof. I'm irritated enough that the previous owner put a sattelite dish up there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Regarding China, they've already surpassed their latest 5-year plan (2016-2020) to install 105GW of solar. 35GW of that was installed this year alone. https://cleantechnica.com/2017/08/22/china-continues-massive-solar-installations-10-52-gw-july-already-exceeds-2020-target/ This picture pretty much sums up what I think of the stats that come out of China: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlRozzi Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Did you see my earlier post about this? http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/63800-lincoln-plans-electrified-lineup-all-models-by-2022/?p=1008933 Honestly, I am not here to argue with you. I am open to any form of energy generation. If solar provided 100% of all our electricity needs, I am fine with that. If we could use 15 different methods to generate electricity, that is fine with me as well. I desire any means of maximizing efficiency and productivity with regard to energy generation. I don't visit this forum to argue how we get our electrity. My passion is automobiles. I am an auto enthusiast. In fact, I am a Ford loyalist. I have owned nearly 40 cars, all but one of which were either a Ford, a Mercury or a Lincoln. In previous years I wrote articles for Blue Oval News. I visit this forum because the members tend to aggregate articles which makes it easier for me to find out hot news in an efficient manner. I don't always have time to search around the web every day to see if there is some new Ford model, or a competitor's model, sales results, P&L, etcetera. My concern is that as a car guy, I want to be able to buy the kind of car I desire to own and drive. And I still believe that the auto industry is consumer driven (pun intended), not a public service, mass transit authority. Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression you are an angry, political activist with an agenda toward mandating a specific outcome. Perhaps I am wrong about that? It would not bother me if 90% of all vehicles sold were an EV. I just desire an automobile market where if I wsh to own a Mustang with an internal combustion engine, I can have one. In fact, I am against autonomous autos and ride sharing. I am well aware that fascism is taking hold of the world and that liberty and freedom are a thing of the past. I have lost the battle I and I am ready to accept that fact. My posting on this topic has had nothing to do with how we get our electricity. It is in fact about my enthusiasm for automobiles and my passion for the Ford Motor Company. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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