Ford 1st Quarter Sales

[silvrsvt]

1 minute ago, probowler said:

Just because you don't see or it doesn't morally affect you to lose your personal freedom of travel doesn't mean it doesn't affect you, or the other 330 million individuals whose individual liberty is at stake. 

 

No, because I'm not some nut job that thinks that everytime that something happens that my freedoms are being taken away either. 

If your curious as to how the laws are enforced:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

 

Legal Authorities for Isolation and Quarantine
Federal isolation and quarantine are authorized for these communicable diseases
Cholera
Diphtheria
Infectious tuberculosis
Plague
Smallpox
Yellow fever
Viral hemorrhagic fevers
Severe acute respiratory syndromes
Flu that can cause a pandemic

Federal isolation and quarantine are authorized by Executive Order of the President. The President can revise this list by Executive Order.

 

Isolation and Quarantine
Isolation and quarantine help protect the public by preventing exposure to people who have or may have a contagious disease.

Isolation separates sick people with a quarantinable communicable disease from people who are not sick.
Quarantine separates and restricts the movement of people who were exposed to a contagious disease to see if they become sick.
In addition to serving as medical functions, isolation and quarantine also are “police power” functions, derived from the right of the state to take action affecting individuals for the benefit of society.

 

Federal Law
The federal government derives its authority for isolation and quarantine from the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

The authority for carrying out these functions on a daily basis has been delegated to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

 

CDC’s Role
Under 42 Code of Federal Regulations parts 70 and 71, CDC is authorized to detain, medically examine, and release persons arriving into the United States and traveling between states who are suspected of carrying these communicable diseases.

As part of its federal authority, CDC routinely monitors persons arriving at U.S. land border crossings and passengers and crew arriving at U.S. ports of entry for signs or symptoms of communicable diseases.

When alerted about an ill passenger or crew  member by the pilot of a plane or captain of a ship, CDC may detain passengers and crew as necessary to investigate whether the cause of the illness on board is a communicable disease.

State, Local, and Tribal Law
States have police power functions to protect the health, safety, and welfare of persons within their borders. To control the spread of disease within their borders, states have laws to enforce the use of isolation and quarantine.

These laws can vary from state to state and can be  specific or broad. In some states, local health authorities implement state law. In most states, breaking a quarantine order is a criminal misdemeanor.

Tribes also have police power authority to take actions that promote the health, safety, and welfare of their own tribal members. Tribal health authorities may enforce their own isolation and quarantine laws within tribal lands, if such laws exist.

 

Who Is in Charge
The federal government
Acts to prevent the entry of communicable diseases into the United States. Quarantine and isolation may be used at U.S. ports of entry.
Is authorized to take measures to prevent the spread of communicable diseases between states.
May accept state and local assistance in enforcing federal quarantine.
May assist state and local authorities in preventing the spread of communicable diseases.
State, local, and tribal authorities
Enforce isolation and quarantine within their borders.
It is possible for federal, state, local, and tribal health authorities to have and use all at the same time separate but coexisting legal quarantine power in certain events. In the event of a conflict, federal law is supreme.

Enforcement
If a quarantinable disease is suspected or identified, CDC may issue a federal isolation or quarantine order.

Public health authorities at the federal, state, local, and tribal levels may sometimes seek help from police or other law enforcement officers to enforce a public health order.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Coast Guard officers are authorized to help enforce federal quarantine orders.

Breaking a federal quarantine order is punishable by fines and imprisonment.

Federal law allows the conditional release of persons from quarantine if they comply with medical monitoring and surveillance.

In the rare event that a federal order is issued by CDC, those individuals will be provided with an order for quarantine or isolation. An example of a Quarantine Order for Novel Coronavirus (print-only) pdf icon[PDF – 5 pages] is provided. This document outlines the rationale of the federal order as well as information on where the individual will be located, quarantine requirements including the length of the order, CDC’s legal authority, and information outlining what the individual can expect while under federal order.

Federal Quarantine Rarely used
Large-scale isolation and quarantine was last enforced during the influenza (“Spanish Flu”) pandemic in 1918–1919. In recent history, only a few public health events have prompted federal isolation or quarantine orders.

Specific Laws and Regulations Applying to Quarantine and Isolation
Visit the Specific Laws and Regulations Governing the Control of Communicable Diseases page.

Guidance for Importation of Human Remains into

[silvrsvt]

As for those thinking its just like the flu, some information from my state:

We had about 10K cases of the flu this past season

 

https://www.nj.gov/health/cd/documents/flu/surveillance/flu_report_week_2020_09.pdf

 

We have 58K cases of COVID-19 in the past MONTH!

 

https://www.nj.gov/health/cd/topics/covid2019_dashboard.shtml

 

56 people dead from the Flu

 

2100 dead from COVID-19

Edited April 12, 2020 by silvrsvt

[probowler]

You're just quoting rules and regulations that violate the constitution. States are supposed to self rule, but they cannot violate the constitution in the process. Freedom of travel, freedom of religion and assembly, freedom to work and operate a business, it's all being infringed right now. People have been arrested for swimming alone in the ocean. 

 

To call people wack jobs in the face of plainly obvious rights curtailment is disingenuous, and wrong. Possibly evil. 

 

Also a note about your statistics, it appears you're trying to make the case that covid is more dangerous, more contagious than the flu... But aren't you ignoring that we have a flu vaccine? 

 

Obviously covid cases will be higher right now, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's more dangerous.  We don't even know the death rate of this thing, but some suspect it could be less than 1%. Others think it's way higher, but we won't know for sure until it's all over. 

 

Yes we should be careful, not take extra risks or chances, but to sacrifice what it means to be Americans and to risk destroying our economy is going too far. 

[probowler]

[02MustangGT]

27 minutes ago, probowler said:

You're just quoting rules and regulations that violate the constitution. States are supposed to self rule, but they cannot violate the constitution in the process

So is Michigan violating the constitution...

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/04/09/no-more-visiting-friends-and-neighbors-under-whitmers-expanded-coronavirus-order/5125426002/

I find this “order” to be a bit ridiculous.  For context, we are attempting to purchase a 2020 Expedition.  The only Expedition within 200 miles that meets our trim, options, and color requirements happens to be at a dealer in Hillsdale, MI.  I’m almost certain that our local dealer will not be able to acquire this Expedition due to the orders in Michigan.  

[silvrsvt]

21 minutes ago, probowler said:

You're just quoting rules and regulations that violate the constitution. States are supposed to self rule, but they cannot violate the constitution in the process. Freedom of travel, freedom of religion and assembly, freedom to work and operate a business, it's all being infringed right now. People have been arrested for swimming alone in the ocean. 

 

In addition to serving as medical functions, isolation and quarantine also are “police power” functions, derived from the right of the state to take action affecting individuals for the benefit of society.

 

You know the state and federal governments actually are supposed to protect the population....that falls under this.

 

 

[silvrsvt]

8 minutes ago, 02MustangGT said:

So is Michigan violating the constitution...

 

No....this is the law of Michigan

 

Michigan

Mich. Comp. Laws § 333.2453

Authority. The local health officer may issue an emergency order to prohibit the gathering of people for any purpose and may establish procedures to be followed by persons, including a local governmental entity, during the epidemic to ensure continuation of essential public health services and enforcement of health laws. Emergency procedures shall not be limited to this code.

 

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/constitutional-powers-and-issues-during-a-quarantine-situation

 

If you want to read more about how the laws apply at a federal and state level. 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by silvrsvt

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Do you realize that your issue is with your state shitty leadership and general inconvenience its causing you? All your saying is that oh this isn't affecting me, so why should I be affected?

Michigan has had shitty leadership since at least 2002, debatably earlier. 

 

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

I have 58,151 cases in my state and just under 8K cases with 25 mile or so radius of where I live. The last time I've been to work was the 16th of last month and where I work at we've had cases with some in the building I work in. I have friends who work in healthcare locally and in VA, near DC and they both say its bad.

 

I get that. I lost count of how many cases we had at my work, we've even had a few people die from it. I just don't feel like shutting entire states down and completely killing the economy in the process is the answer. Targeted lockdowns could be an answer but then there's the same issues of impeding constitutional rights, plus in places like Detroit now matter how you do it, you’re still going to be labeled a racist like Trump was when he closed off travel to/from China. I'm not saying I have all the answers but damn it all there has to be a better way. 
 

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Yes there are going to be affects from this, but the alternative is better then being possibly dead from it. 

 

 

I've said this even to my wife. If it wasn't for her and the kids I wouldn't be talking to you right now. That's the impact this is having on people that is ultimately going to go ignored. 

[probowler]

Deleted

Edited April 12, 2020 by probowler

[fuzzymoomoo]

55 minutes ago, probowler said:

We don't even know the death rate of this thing, but some suspect it could be less than 1%. Others think it's way higher, but we won't know for sure until it's all over. 

Just doing the quick math in Michigan, it's about a 3.2% mortality rate. Detroit's numbers have it heavily skewed though. 

[probowler]

 

[02MustangGT]

6 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

No....this is the law of Michigan

 

Michigan

Mich. Comp. Laws § 333.2453

Authority. The local health officer may issue an emergency order to prohibit the gathering of people for any purpose and may establish procedures to be followed by persons, including a local governmental entity, during the epidemic to ensure continuation of essential public health services and enforcement of health laws. Emergency procedures shall not be limited to this code.

 

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/constitutional-powers-and-issues-during-a-quarantine-situation

 

If you want to read more about how the laws apply at a federal and state level. 

 

It was a rhetorical question...and btw, I’m not disagreeing with the majority of state “orders” due to pandemic (my wife is a RN), however, when it impacts the ability to perform essential business, I will disagree.  Interpretation of essential business potentially differs for every household.   So if states are not practicing the same “orders”/LAWS and how to enforce this during a pandemic; that creates more risk and confusion.  

[fuzzymoomoo]

23 minutes ago, 02MustangGT said:

So is Michigan violating the constitution...

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/04/09/no-more-visiting-friends-and-neighbors-under-whitmers-expanded-coronavirus-order/5125426002/

I find this “order” to be a bit ridiculous.  For context, we are attempting to purchase a 2020 Expedition.  The only Expedition within 200 miles that meets our trim, options, and color requirements happens to be at a dealer in Hillsdale, MI.  I’m almost certain that our local dealer will not be able to acquire this Expedition due to the orders in Michigan.  

Under Gretchen's new order, dealers can open up for online sales (yet another inconsistency. We can sell cars but not vegetable seeds people use to grow food) 

 

A dealer in a small town like that probably still won't bother. 

[silvrsvt]

18 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I get that. I lost count of how many cases we had at my work, we've even had a few people die from it. I just don't feel like shutting entire states down and completely killing the economy in the process is the answer. Targeted lockdowns could be an answer but then there's the same issues of impeding constitutional rights, plus in places like Detroit now matter how you do it, you’re still going to be labeled a racist like Trump was when he closed off travel to/from China. I'm not saying I have all the answers but damn it all there has to be a better way. 

 

The problem is that due to the lockdown not having "real" teeth to enforce it, you have people from the NYC and Philly areas going to their summer houses in NJ or even going to FL or other states to get away from the quarantine lock down and they might be asymptomatic carriers of it, spreading it more, just like the idiotic spring breakers a few weeks back.

 

Best course of action is lock down things at the start, flatten out the curve and take precautions till there is a vaccine.  

 

 

[02MustangGT]

3 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Under Gretchen's new order, dealers can open up for online sales (yet another inconsistency. We can sell cars but not vegetable seeds people use to grow food) 

 

A dealer in a small town like that probably still won't bother. 

Yep, the dealer in Hillsdale is open for online sales, however, this particular dealer is not likely to deliver a vehicle until after the “stay at home” order is lifted.   We aren’t in any real hurry anyway, but if this Expedition was on the local dealer lot today, it would be in our garage right now.  We should know more on Monday if Hillsdale dealer is open to vehicle trade.  Our local dealer has already agreed to acquiring it and delivering on a hauler/flatbed.  

[SoonerLS]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

You won’t get compliance just by asking, unfortunately.  

Hmm. Oklahoma doesn't have a shelter in place order, and we're "flattening the curve" just fine, thanks. Maybe personal responsibility isn't completely dead yet.

[silvrsvt]

3 minutes ago, SoonerLS said:

Hmm. Oklahoma doesn't have a shelter in place order, and we're "flattening the curve" just fine, thanks. Maybe personal responsibility isn't completely dead yet.

 

When your state's third largest city is the same size population wise as the town I grew up in and is several times the size of it, it can't get around as easy.  

[SoonerLS]

1 minute ago, silvrsvt said:

 

When your state's third largest city is the same size population wise as the town I grew up in and is several times the size of it, it can't get around as easy.  

My state's third largest city is also a college town, and most of its population is concentrated into less than half of the city's area. It's also part of a fairly large metropolitan area.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that we are generally adhering to the "social distancing" guidelines, working from home, and slowing the spread, all without draconian "thou shalt remain in thy homes, or else" orders.

[akirby]

2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 All this for something that's turning out to be as deadly, maybe slightly higher, as the seasonal flu.

Flu kills 80k in a whole year and has vaccines.  Coved-19 has no vaccines, only experimental treatment and even with all these inconveniences will probably kill 200k.  Without social distancing and shelter in place it could kill as many as 1 - 2 MILLION.  And eve already seen it completely overwhelm hospitals.  This is NOT the flu!

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, probowler said:

You're just quoting rules and regulations that violate the constitution. States are supposed to self rule, but they cannot violate the constitution in the process. Freedom of travel, freedom of religion and assembly, freedom to work and operate a business, it's all being infringed right now. People have been arrested for swimming alone in the ocean. 

 

To call people wack jobs in the face of plainly obvious rights curtailment is disingenuous, and wrong. Possibly evil. 

 

Also a note about your statistics, it appears you're trying to make the case that covid is more dangerous, more contagious than the flu... But aren't you ignoring that we have a flu vaccine? 

 

Obviously covid cases will be higher right now, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's more dangerous.  We don't even know the death rate of this thing, but some suspect it could be less than 1%. Others think it's way higher, but we won't know for sure until it's all over. 

 

Yes we should be careful, not take extra risks or chances, but to sacrifice what it means to be Americans and to risk destroying our economy is going too far. 

Your last sentence is the most dangerous action at the moment,

the reason the death rate is a lot lowers is exactly because of the 

measures taken.

 

When you take action like this, the result is nothing, therefore people don't see any progress

and then they get anxious and selfish about their rights and freedoms. It's only been a few

weeks and, I for one am surprised that Americans haven't devolved into gun toting melitias.

[akirby]

13 minutes ago, SoonerLS said:

Hmm. Oklahoma doesn't have a shelter in place order, and we're "flattening the curve" just fine, thanks. Maybe personal responsibility isn't completely dead yet.

Your towns and citizens are naturally spread out without a huge mass transit infrastructure.  All it would trek is an infected person at one large gathering like a funeral to change that.  
 

I think areas with minimal infections could open back up soon with extra precautions and no large gatherings with high risk groups sheltering in place.  They key is to protect the vulnerable and don’t overwhelm the hospitals.

[probowler]

1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Just doing the quick math in Michigan, it's about a 3.2% mortality rate. Detroit's numbers have it heavily skewed though. 

This rate only takes into account confirmed cases correct? Until we have antibody tests, we won't know the real number of infected persons and survivors. With this disease being asymptomatic in many cases, it's quite possible that 3.2% will drastically decrease once we have more reliable data informing our calculations. Future evolutions of the virus should also be less deadly through simple natural selection.

 

34 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Your last sentence is the most dangerous action at the moment,

the reason the death rate is a lot lowers is exactly because of the 

measures taken.

 

When you take action like this, the result is nothing, therefore people don't see any progress

and then they get anxious and selfish about their rights and freedoms. It's only been a few

weeks and, I for one am surprised that Americans haven't devolved into gun toting melitias.

I disagree... By taking authoritarian measures your stirring up more trouble than is necessary. The people who don't know any better, or don't care will still go out, we can't stop that and we won't fully stop it hard as we may try. You may scare some people into complying, but by taking up police-state measures, you're just going to piss off a lot of people who don't believe it is the governments job to protect us from germs, and you're going to encourage civil disobedience. 

Steering into a different topic, I saw this posted on facebook recently and decided to look up the source. So much for the glories of socialized medicine huh?



https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/03/12/the-countries-with-the-most-critical-care-beds-per-capita-infographic/#7d6f9e67f864

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, probowler said:

This rate only takes into account confirmed cases correct? Until we have antibody tests, we won't know the real number of infected persons and survivors. With this disease being asymptomatic in many cases, it's quite possible that 3.2% will drastically decrease once we have more reliable data informing our calculations. Future evolutions of the virus should also be less deadly through simple natural selection.

 

I disagree... By taking authoritarian measures your stirring up more trouble than is necessary. The people who don't know any better, or don't care will still go out, we can't stop that and we won't fully stop it hard as we may try. You may scare some people into complying, but by taking up police-state measures, you're just going to piss off a lot of people who don't believe it is the governments job to protect us from germs, and you're going to encourage civil disobedience. 

Steering into a different topic, I saw this posted on facebook recently and decided to look up the source. So much for the glories of socialized medicine huh?



https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/03/12/the-countries-with-the-most-critical-care-beds-per-capita-infographic/#7d6f9e67f864

All those figures are nearly a decade old....

At the start of 2020, the UK had over 5,900 critical beds which is about 100 beds/100,000 people.

At times other than the middle of a pandemic, those amounts of critical beds are probably sufficient.

It's impossible to plan for so many resources that may lie dormant for years, much better to have

the capacity to quickly ramp up production, better to isolate and reduce the spread in the first place.

 

Socialised medicine has its place for those who could never afford the cost of full medical insurance.

I live under a dual system,public patients have long wait times for elective surgery where I go straight in 

with my own surgeon/ specialist but for critical care there is no waiting for either.

 

 

Fortunately we Aussies have embraced social distancing and travel restrictions

We only have around 7,000 confirmed infected, under 60 dead and only 24 in ICU,

over 3,000 have now recovered. Some mercy flights arriving soon with travellers

who were trapped on cruise ships so infection numbers will certainly  grow a bit.

Edited April 12, 2020 by jpd80

[CurtisH]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

And eve already seen it completely overwhelm hospitals.  This is NOT the flu!

To be fair, relatively few hospitals have been overwhelmed.  I believe the Navy ship in New York still has only a handful of patients because most of the hospitals still have vacant beds.  Last week, I think I heard that only two of their hospitals had reached max capacity. 

[snooter]

Trying to spin all of fords issues with the beerflu....fords going to take taxpayer money this time so best to get out in front and blame the the beerflu....