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Dodge Bombshell: Charger, Challenger Gone By 2024, EV Arrives Soon

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41 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

Owners of current Dodge V8 powered muscle cars who disagree probably never experienced a BEV. Most of them will quickly change their minds once they experience the superior performance that a BEV muscle car can provide. 


You just don’t get it and never will because you can only see things from your limited point of view.

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

 

Owners of current Dodge V8 powered muscle cars who disagree probably never experienced a BEV. Most of them will quickly change their minds once they experience the superior performance that a BEV muscle car can provide. 

 

Stellantis' marketing plan for Fratzog may have programs that involve getting "butts into seats" of prototype or pre-production BEV muscle cars, or brand ambassadors that show off Fratzog's advantages compared to Dodge V8 cars and compared to BEV from competitors.

 

 

Although not a current "Sports" car owner, I did have a Mustang GT for 6 years. I can assure you even if electric had better performance, there is way more to owning and operating a sports car than only performance. If I bought a Mustang today, it would still be a V8 with manual gearbox, as most of the fun with a sports car is manual shifting. Just can't imagine a Mustang, or even a Dodge, without a clutch and gearbox - boring!!!

 

If BEV's have better performance, why is the base unit in Formula 1 cars still an ICE. 

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22 minutes ago, Rangers09 said:

If BEV's have better performance, why is the base unit in Formula 1 cars still an ICE. 

 

F1 teams voted for an engine rule freeze that begins in 2022, which means the next generation of F1 engine rules may come into force by 2025. Expectation is that the current hybrid V6 engine base design will be electrified more extensively.

 

FIA and F1 signed the UN "Sports for Climate Action" agreement and said they will become carbon neutral by 2030. F1 engine rules specifying 100% electric propulsion may be considered around that timeframe.

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17 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

You are just showing your bias. Dodge sells plenty of cars to people who don't care about Dukes of Hazzard, and plenty of people living away from the coast want EVs. You just refuse to believe people want EV despite the data saying so. 

 

The data I've seen shows 40% want EV's and 60% don't. Unfortunately, you have turned into an EV zealot over recent weeks and months. You EV zealots, especially rperez and you in recent weeks, are destroying this forum, which was one of the last good ones around.  You're living in a dream world if you think the ICE percentage will drop to 10% in the next 15 years. 

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28 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

F1 teams voted for an engine rule freeze that begins in 2022, which means the next generation of F1 engine rules may come into force by 2025. Expectation is that the current hybrid V6 engine base design will be electrified more extensively.

 

FIA and F1 signed the UN "Sports for Climate Action" agreement and said they will become carbon neutral by 2030. F1 engine rules specifying 100% electric propulsion may be considered around that timeframe.

 

So, in your opinion BEV is higher performance, but the Formula 1 teams voted to retain the same engines for 2022, even though the cars are being re-designed. The primary reason they aren't changing the power plant, as although highly complex, it is currently the best available.

 

Surely, if BEV had higher performance, the teams would be requesting an immediate change.

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48 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

F1 teams voted for an engine rule freeze that begins in 2022, which means the next generation of F1 engine rules may come into force by 2025. Expectation is that the current hybrid V6 engine base design will be electrified more extensively.

 

FIA and F1 signed the UN "Sports for Climate Action" agreement and said they will become carbon neutral by 2030. F1 engine rules specifying 100% electric propulsion may be considered around that timeframe.

 

Actually many of the team principals want to keep ICE because Formula E is about as exciting as watching your microwave cook your meal because it has zero noise outside of squealing tires. There is next to no excitement because if the lack of sound. The Mach E 1400 sounds cool, but I'd think it get annoying as fuck after a while too.  

Carbon Neutral doesn't equal BEV-they'll most likely wind up using some sort of synthetic fuel.

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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Carbon Neutral doesn't equal BEV-they'll most likely wind up using some sort of synthetic fuel.

 

Good point about the synthetic fuel silvrsvt sir, I remember Porsche announcing something about research they are doing with synfuels. With Porsche also considering re-entry into Formula 1 around 2025 or 2026, things could get interesting in terms of synfuels vs. full electric for future F1 engine rules.

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2 hours ago, Rangers09 said:

Surely, if BEV had higher performance, the teams would be requesting an immediate change.

 

Yes sir Rangers09, from a technical standpoint the higher performance of electric powertrains would prompt F1 teams to make that demand. But there is a lot of politics involved in modern motorsport both among teams and governing bodies that affect the adoption of technical advancements. F1 is no exception. Plus there's the negative impact of Covid-19 pandemic to team budgets. 

Edited by rperez817

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Back to Dodge's EV strategy. The parent company Stellantis announced today a joint development agreement with Factorial Energy for solid state high voltage batteries to be used in upcoming Stellantis BEV. Stellantis Media - Stellantis and Factorial Energy to Jointly Develop Solid-state Batteries for Electric Vehicles (stellantisnorthamerica.com) 

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1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

Back to Dodge's EV strategy. The parent company Stellantis announced today a joint development agreement with Factorial Energy for solid state high voltage batteries to be used in upcoming Stellantis BEV. Stellantis Media - Stellantis and Factorial Energy to Jointly Develop Solid-state Batteries for Electric Vehicles (stellantisnorthamerica.com) 

 

Solid state batteries will be a game changer in the BEV market

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4 hours ago, ehaase said:

 

The data I've seen shows 40% want EV's and 60% don't. Unfortunately, you have turned into an EV zealot over recent weeks and months. You EV zealots, especially rperez and you in recent weeks, are destroying this forum, which was one of the last good ones around.  You're living in a dream world if you think the ICE percentage will drop to 10% in the next 15 years. 

 

I'm not a zealot. I'm a realist. If I'm a zealot then I guess that means Farley and all the other car company CEOs are zealots too. 

 

You are in complete denial if you think ICE will still be more than 10 or 15% of sales in 15 years. 

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

I'm not a zealot. I'm a realist. If I'm a zealot then I guess that means Farley and all the other car company CEOs are zealots too. 

 

You are in complete denial if you think ICE will still be more than 10 or 15% of sales in 15 years. 

 

Yes sir bzcat. Zealots are those who sent Dodge brand CEO Tim Kuniskis death threats after he announced the product plans mentioned in the 1st post of this topic.

 

As you mentioned most automakers themselves have all embraced an all-electric future. Capital markets, sustainability focused consumers, and regulatory bodies have all come together to spell the end of the ICE age.

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On 11/29/2021 at 7:34 PM, akirby said:

If you two think people buying V8 chargers and challengers want a BEV version you’re dreaming.  They buy them for the V8 power and sound which a BEV can’t match.

 

Just because somebody says that a certain demographic or market segment can’t or won’t do BEVs doesn’t mean that nobody wants them or that those things won’t change over time.

 

Here is a perfect example.  Find 1000 apartment dwellers and try to sell them a BEV for the same price as their current vehicle and see how many take the offer after explaining that they have to find and use and wait on public chargers because they can’t charge at home.  Not happening for 90%+ of them.   It’s just too inconvenient.  Same for people in condos and older homes that can’t support home charging.

$107.99 On Amazon. Boom.  Should last until we get charging infrastructure figured out. We had impractical, slow glitchy "Personal Digital Assistants" on 2g pager networks less than thirty years ago.

 

 

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Dodge and Chrysler brands are tainted and have no future, and Charger and Challenger are just nostalgia vehicles like Panthers were in 1990's (Panthers in 2000's were just for fleets and cranks whose automotive tastes were stuck in 1971). Stellantis should develop EV versions of Ram, Wagoneer, Wrangler, and Grand Cherokee, but an EV replacement for Charger and Challenger will flop. 

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31 minutes ago, Chrisgb said:

$107.99 On Amazon. Boom.  Should last until we get charging infrastructure figured out. We had impractical, slow glitchy "Personal Digital Assistants" on 2g pager networks less than thirty years ago.


You’re joking right?  Which apartments have an outside receptacle for every resident?  Not to mention how slow it would charge.

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32 minutes ago, ehaase said:

Stellantis should develop EV versions of Ram, Wagoneer, Wrangler, and Grand Cherokee, but an EV replacement for Charger and Challenger will flop. 

 

All Stellantis automobile brands are undergoing the transition to BEV. Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroën, Dodge, DS, Fiat, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Opel, Peugeot, Ram, and Vauxhall.

 

What's the basis for the statement "an EV replacement for Charger and Challenger will flop"?

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52 minutes ago, ehaase said:

Dodge and Chrysler brands are tainted and have no future, and Charger and Challenger are just nostalgia vehicles like Panthers were in 1990's (Panthers in 2000's were just for fleets and cranks whose automotive tastes were stuck in 1971). Stellantis should develop EV versions of Ram, Wagoneer, Wrangler, and Grand Cherokee, but an EV replacement for Charger and Challenger will flop. 

 

Agree Chrysler is pretty much done for - there isn't much use for the brand going forward. Dodge has carved out a muscle car niche for itself in the US and may still be relevant in the EV era.

 

Stallantis has a stable full of damaged brands in Europe so Dodge is comparatively healthy with a fairly clear identity. It makes no apologies for selling cars that can go fast but can't turn. 

Edited by bzcat

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8 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

All Stellantis automobile brands are undergoing the transition to BEV. Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Citroën, Dodge, DS, Fiat, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, Opel, Peugeot, Ram, and Vauxhall.

 

What's the basis for the statement "an EV replacement for Charger and Challenger will flop"?

I believe it is due to Dodge focusing for the past 10 years on just the three products that feature the Hemi. The focus was so much on gas engined "hemi" performance that their vision became a one horse show. I think it will be difficult for Dodge fans to accept anything else other than that. If they were to go electric for super performance, Tesla is already there and they are more established for that.

 

Stellantis just has too many brands including multiple brands with one to three products and a narrow focus for each. A brand with a full lineup like Jeep can transition easier to that as it won't be all at once.

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16 minutes ago, atomcat68 said:

I believe it is due to Dodge focusing for the past 10 years on just the three products that feature the Hemi. The focus was so much on gas engined "hemi" performance that their vision became a one horse show. I think it will be difficult for Dodge fans to accept anything else other than that. If they were to go electric for super performance, Tesla is already there and they are more established for that.

 

Good points atomcat68 sir. Tim Kuniskis' marketing strategy for Dodge Fratzog to compete with Tesla, Lucid, Porsche, etc. involves a muscle car theme discussed earlier in the thread combined with a focus on younger customers, particularly millennials. Both of these play to existing strengths of the Dodge brand. During Stellantis EV Day 2021, Kuniskis mentioned that Dodge has the highest proportion of millennial customers of any automotive brand in the U.S.

 

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8 hours ago, akirby said:


You’re joking right?  Which apartments have an outside receptacle for every resident?  Not to mention how slow it would charge.

Apartments I have rented in the Twin City Metro area all had an interior outlet on the wall facing outside or on the deck or in the supplemental garage, and these were not upper class housing units. I used a 100' extension cord from a interior wall outlet, thru a window, out to my '70 Challenger's block heater at one apartment. If a person is driving an average of say 50 miles a weekday, the charge remaining should be at least 60% even in winter. Given that most folks are home a continuous 7 hours minimum most nights or days, I would think that is ample time to add an additional ~40% charge on 120v. I drove semi for a family run trucking firm and over the years they grew to where they had more trucks than shop space, so they put in two rows of 8 eight 120v outlets adjacent to the shop for plugging in the tank heaters. It wasn't a complicated or expensive job, and I can see an owner or manager of a group of 12-20 unit buildings installing a matrix like this. Of course there are high rises, HOA covenants, zoning and code considerations that can roadblock attempts, or are otherwise unsuitable for such a plan, but I think it could open up a segment of EV buyers who might not otherwise consider going electric.

 

 

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10 hours ago, rperez817 said:

image.thumb.png.9be70da797e3a0f047ab2c1a2f5eca75.png

 

The sad reality of this picture is that the above pictured group are probably texting each other instead of just talking to each other.

Edited by twintornados

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18 hours ago, bzcat said:

 Dodge has carved out a muscle car niche for itself in the US and may still be relevant in the EV era.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if "performance cars" as we have known them are dead men walking in the coming EV era. Consider that EVs can produce prodigious acceleration figures now (and these can be 'garden variety' EVs) - that specific differentiation for 'performance cars' is gone, at least to the extent that manufacturers continue to offer 'regular' EVs with the capability, versus segregating the capability exclusively to their performance car offering.

 

If you take away the acceleration differential, that still leaves handling and appearance (including packaging). Most of the reviews I've read of performance EVs don't leave me with the impression that they are significantly better in terms of 'handling' than their non performance peers in this metric. The reviews generally mention the low center of gravity due to the battery pack, the added weight of the battery pack, etc.. This is not to say that the OEMs cannot produce an EV 'performance car' with differentiated handling, I'm just not sure it will really be that much different.

 

That leaves styling and packaging. Obviously this area will always remain as a way to differentiate a performance offering - Mustang, Corvette, Porsche, et al all have unique heritage styling and packaging that differentiate themselves as a product. I'm certain that their respective companies can produce an EV when the time comes that properly represents the values of each respective vehicle. I'm less certain that the market will continue to value those offerings (in terms of sales) to the same extent due to the reasons stated above. 

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I think we’ll still see performance differences - they just won’t be as different as ICE versions.

Like Mach-E regular and GT and the insane 1400.  More motors rather than more displacement and forced induction.

We’ve already seen the death of the pitifully slow 4 cylinder dogs with double digit 0-60 times because newer engines are more efficient and more powerful.   I suspect with EVs the slowest will be in the 6-7 second range.  But you’re right that the performance range will be much smaller.

 

As for handling I wonder if what we’re seeing now is just a different feel on the handling.  With a lower CG and better weight distribution and the same suspensions it should be better.  Or maybe they just need more time to learn how to tune them.

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Yes, I assume there will be a difference in performance with EVs.  Just like with ICE engines, the more performance you use, the less range you'll get. Additionally, many EVs won't have the rest of the platform built for speed or handling because for most people, there won't be a demand for it, and range is more important to them (think skinny, low rolling resistance tires, etc..). I think what you'll see is similar to ICE cars today.  Normal commuters for normal people, pickups and SUVs, and more performance-orientated models.   

 

For every Tesla Model S Plaid, there will be 10,000 Hyundai Ioniq-type vehicles. Just like today.

 

My Ranger can do 0-60 in the 6.X second range and 14.X quarter miles.  That was Mustang GT times back in the '90s, but no one would equate a Ranger as being a performance vehicle by any stretch of the imagination.  Times change and what is considered "fast" does too.

Edited by Anthony

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0-60 under 5 seconds was considered supercar territory not that long ago. Now there are SUVs that can do that. 

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