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The Real Reason Why No One Ever Plugs In Their Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles

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31 minutes ago, dmpaul said:

 

I had one salesman trying to talk me out of the PHEV Escape because he claimed I would then have to pay a bunch of money for a 240V charging station. He ignored the fact that you can charge a PHEV on standard 110V outlet. That may be another possible reason why some aren't charging their PHEV, they may have been told they need to buy the charger. Just speculation on my part.

How long would it take to charge from a 110 outlet though? A 240v would be a couple hours I think. 

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33 minutes ago, dmpaul said:

I had one salesman trying to talk me out of the PHEV Escape because he claimed I would then have to pay a bunch of money for a 240V charging station. He ignored the fact that you can charge a PHEV on standard 110V outlet. That may be another possible reason why some aren't charging their PHEV, they may have been told they need to buy the charger. Just speculation on my part.

 

Good info dmpaul. False or incomplete information from dealerships and salespeople regarding plug-in vehicles (BEV and PHEV) is a real problem. In 2021, Ipsos found that "When it comes to electric vehicles (EVs), auto dealerships around the U.S. are struggling due to unprepared salespeople, limited vehicles and inconsistent sales practices". To a certain extent, this applies to PHEV too. Ipsos Study Finds Dealers Not Ready for Influx of EV Curious Shoppers | Ipsos

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28 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

How long would it take to charge from a 110 outlet though? A 240v would be a couple hours I think. 

 

I researched this in 2021 when we were looking at an Escape PHEV.  It takes ten to eleven hours to fully charge using 110.

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17 hours ago, balthisar said:

Just eliminate the complexity of a second drive train and go all electric. Your gas car won't do 100% of what you need, and neither will your electric. That's why rentals exist.

 

My ICE vehicles have always done 100% of what I need but at a higher cost for fuel. I have never rented a vehicle because my ICE vehicle could not get the job done. I suspect very few vehicles are rented for that purpose.

 

I hear this often that the complexity of a second drive train is inherently bad. Consumer Reports reliability data indicates hybrids are among the most reliable vehicles on the road:   Hybrid Reliability

 

The duel fuel capability of PHEVs is part of the reason why I have an Escape PHEV on order. If the grid goes down (like Texas a few winters ago) I can still drive. If gasoline becomes unavailable (or painfully expensive) I can still drive. For people that plug their PHEVs in (and that is likely a majority) it provides a great bridge until the grid and EV battery technology allows BEVs to be as practical and convenient as ICE vehicles.

 

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34 minutes ago, Texasota said:

My ICE vehicles have always done 100% of what I need but at a higher cost for fuel. I have never rented a vehicle because my ICE vehicle could not get the job done. I suspect very few vehicles are rented for that purpose.

 

I hear this often that the complexity of a second drive train is inherently bad. Consumer Reports reliability data indicates hybrids are among the most reliable vehicles on the road:   Hybrid Reliability

 

The duel fuel capability of PHEVs is part of the reason why I have an Escape PHEV on order. If the grid goes down (like Texas a few winters ago) I can still drive. If gasoline becomes unavailable (or painfully expensive) I can still drive. For people that plug their PHEVs in (and that is likely a majority) it provides a great bridge until the grid and EV battery technology allows BEVs to be as practical and convenient as ICE vehicles.

 

The thing is that BEV can drive without electricity if there is a power outage AND it can provide power to your house (if properly equipped) with it for a couple days also. Its not like a BEV is completely useless if there is no power available..its just like having a tank of gas in the car. 


The issue with hybrids is that they are inherently more complex (since they have more parts/complex) then an ICE (figure battery pack, CVT transmission in most cases, etc) or an BEV that is even less complex from a mechanical standpoint. The F-150 Powerboost itself was destroyed by CR over its apparent unreliability

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/is-the-ford-150-hybrid-the-least-reliable-vehicle-you-can-buy.html

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4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The thing is that BEV can drive without electricity if there is a power outage AND it can provide power to your house (if properly equipped) with it for a couple days also. Its not like a BEV is completely useless if there is no power available..its just like having a tank of gas in the car. 


The issue with hybrids is that they are inherently more complex (since they have more parts/complex) then an ICE (figure battery pack, CVT transmission in most cases, etc) or an BEV that is even less complex from a mechanical standpoint. The F-150 Powerboost itself was destroyed by CR over its apparent unreliability

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/is-the-ford-150-hybrid-the-least-reliable-vehicle-you-can-buy.html

Yes, the F-150 Powerboost has a lot of teething issues. All modern technology is inherently complex but that does make it inferior or bad as long as it is reliable. Your laptop and mobile phone along with the all of the underlying internet and mobile technology is mind boggling complex but it has also become very reliable. Same is true for most hybrids (but not all). But not all BEVs are reliable either (see EV Reliability).

 

Here is a quote from that article that summarizes CR's findings:

Quote

When compared with hybrid and gas-powered cars and trucks, electric vehicles powered entirely by batteries were the worst-performing segment, aside from traditional full-size pickup trucks, according to Consumer Reports.

 

The F-150 Powerboost will improve with time as will BEVs as does most all modern technology. The fact that hybrids and PHEVs are complex is not a valid argument for dismissing them. Modern life and all the technology surrounding us is complex.

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2 hours ago, Texasota said:

Yes, the F-150 Powerboost has a lot of teething issues. All modern technology is inherently complex but that does make it inferior or bad as long as it is reliable. Your laptop and mobile phone along with the all of the underlying internet and mobile technology is mind boggling complex but it has also become very reliable. Same is true for most hybrids (but not all). But not all BEVs are reliable either (see EV Reliability).

 

The F-150 Powerboost will improve with time as will BEVs as does most all modern technology. The fact that hybrids and PHEVs are complex is not a valid argument for dismissing them. Modern life and all the technology surrounding us is complex.

 

But BEVs are inherently less complex (outside of software) because they just have less moving parts to wear out. ICE/Hybrids are going to cost more (to the OEM) and be more complex to troubleshoot,which is going to affect ownership costs down the road. 

It also doesn't help that 90% of BEV sales are from one company that doesn't have a stellar build/reliability reputation either. 

 

The laptop and phones have almost no moving parts to wear out vs a ICE, so that isn't a good analogy either

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On 1/23/2023 at 5:38 PM, rperez817 said:

 

That's what the global automotive industry is doing. Moving on to the solution - 100% electric vehicles.

Personally I don't feel bad at all about driving my ICE vehicle because 100% of the electricity at my house right now comes from coal. If you live in an area with 100% clean power great, but right now for me an EV does nothing as a solution for clean air.

 

Right now, less then 20% of electricity in the U.S. is generated from clean sources. EVs don't clean up things as much as you think.

Edited by 2005Explorer

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43 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said:

Personally I don't feel bad at all about driving my ICE vehicle because 100% of the electricity at my house right now comes from coal. If you live in an area with 100% clean power great, but right now for me an EV does nothing as a solution for clean air.

 

So in addition to burning coal, your also burning gasoline on top of that. At least with the BEV, you'd be eliminating one source of CO2 and other pollution. 

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9 hours ago, Texasota said:

Consumer Reports reliability data indicates hybrids are among the most reliable vehicles on the road:   Hybrid Reliability

 

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

It also doesn't help that 90% of BEV sales are from one company that doesn't have a stellar build/reliability reputation either. 

 

The dominant player for hybrid vehicles, Toyota, tends to score high across the board in CR's reliability survey. The dominant player for BEV, Tesla, tends to score low in the same survey. Tesla Model 3 is among the more reliable BEV models, though. Other Tesla products (Model Y, Model S, Model X), Ford Mustang Mach-E, and Chevrolet Bolt all rate below average.

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12 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

So in addition to burning coal, your also burning gasoline on top of that. At least with the BEV, you'd be eliminating one source of CO2 and other pollution. 

 

He’s not burning gasoline in addition to burning coal, he’s burning gasoline instead of burning coal.  And since coal-fueled electricity to power BEV or PHEV generates more CO2 than equivalent-size ICE vehicle, he’s actually doing less harm than if he switched to a BEV or PHEV “today”.

 

Please keep in mind that EPA ratings expressed in MPGe are based on completely “clean” energy producing no CO2, but while that may be a future goal, it’s not what we are actually working with today.  When you see a Tesla with 120 MPGe rating, powered from coal power plant (US average 33% efficient), it’s really closer to 40 MPG before transmission losses.  Also, coal produces far more CO2 than gasoline for same amount of heat, so BEV and PHEV are no help in reducing global warming if electricity is generated by burning coal.

 

I was seriously considering buying a BEV, but the more research I do, the more I believe ICE or especially HEV is presently a better and cleaner choice.

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28 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

 

He’s not burning gasoline in addition to burning coal, he’s burning gasoline instead of burning coal.  And since coal-fueled electricity to power BEV or PHEV generates more CO2 than equivalent-size ICE vehicle, he’s actually doing less harm than if he switched to a BEV or PHEV “today”.

 

Please keep in mind that EPA ratings expressed in MPGe are based on completely “clean” energy producing no CO2, but while that may be a future goal, it’s not what we are actually working with today.  When you see a Tesla with 120 MPGe rating, powered from coal power plant (US average 33% efficient), it’s really closer to 40 MPG before transmission losses.  Also, coal produces far more CO2 than gasoline for same amount of heat, so BEV and PHEV are no help in reducing global warming if electricity is generated by burning coal.

 

I was seriously considering buying a BEV, but the more research I do, the more I believe ICE or especially HEV is presently a better and cleaner choice.

What does the electric source have to do with MPGe?  Nothing.  The MPGe is purely a conversion of the amount of kWh in an equivalent gallon of gasoline.  There are 33.7 kWh in a gallon of gasoline, so 120 MPGe equals 3.56 m/kWh.  The Lightning Platinum has a combined MPGe of 66, which is 1.96 m/kWh.  The source of the electricity or the gasoline has no impact on the efficiency ratings.  And if you are going to consider the greenhouse gas emissions from generating said electricity, you also need to consider the emissions of creating gasoline.  All in all, if you look at the data and research, BEVs generate less emissions over the entire process than ICE vehicles, from production to driving.  That accounts for the total mix of electrical generation in the US and the actual production of the vehicles including batteries.

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54 minutes ago, Flying68 said:

What does the electric source have to do with MPGe?  Nothing.  

 

You are correct, I mis-wrote assuming the meaning of what I was implying would be clear to all.  Yes, MPGe is based on 100% of energy in gasoline as if electricity could be generated from fossil fuels at 100% efficiency, which of course it can not.

 

Let me word it differently.  If you put 15 gallons of gasoline in your car, you can drive it a certain distance.  If you burn that same 15 gallons of gasoline (or in this case that equivalent heat but in coal) and converted to electricity at 33% power-plant efficiency (US average per government), then transmitted electricity to your house to charge your BEV, it would produce more CO2 per mile driven.

 

Basically, when generating electricity using coal, 2/3 of fuel heat is wasted not that differently than an ICE vehicle.  So to my poorly worded example, when a 120 MPGe Tesla is charged from coal-electricity, it generates more CO2 than a 40 MPG ICE or HEV.

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15 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But BEVs are inherently less complex (outside of software) because they just have less moving parts to wear out. ICE/Hybrids are going to cost more (to the OEM) and be more complex to troubleshoot,which is going to affect ownership costs down the road. 

It also doesn't help that 90% of BEV sales are from one company that doesn't have a stellar build/reliability reputation either. 

 

The laptop and phones have almost no moving parts to wear out vs a ICE, so that isn't a good analogy either

My C-Max has ~110K and other than recalls the only issue I have had is the rear camera went out.  9 1/2 years and NO reliability issues.  I did replace the windshield wipers.  Getting over 50 MPG but disclaimer I do drive for best MPG.

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35 minutes ago, tarheels23 said:

My C-Max has ~110K and other than recalls the only issue I have had is the rear camera went out.  9 1/2 years and NO reliability issues.  I did replace the windshield wipers.  Getting over 50 MPG but disclaimer I do drive for best MPG.

 

Not to hijack this thread, but my C-Max (~90k miles) has a camera that sometimes doesn't  work. Did you fix yours, and if yes what was the issue?

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26 minutes ago, dmpaul said:

 

Not to hijack this thread, but my C-Max (~90k miles) has a camera that sometimes doesn't  work. Did you fix yours, and if yes what was the issue?


Camera just went out on my Flex. Only fix is outright replacement 

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35 minutes ago, dmpaul said:

 

Not to hijack this thread, but my C-Max (~90k miles) has a camera that sometimes doesn't  work. Did you fix yours, and if yes what was the issue?

yes, found camera on Amazon and youtube video to replace, wife and I did ours in about 1 1/2 hours and was easy. dm for particulars

Edited by tarheels23
eta: new camera is many times better than OEM

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Back to PHEV.

 

My daughter-in-law doesn't like PHEV because she sees it as "dirty" with lots of maintenance. I think it's irrational, a PHEV with 40-50 mile range is a great solution for most drivers. And modern ICE car maintenance is not much beyond an annual oil change.

 

But that's the perception manufacturers have to address, I fear the PHEV has a tough road ahead in spite of it's obvious benefits.

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On 1/25/2023 at 2:42 AM, silvrsvt said:

How long would it take to charge from a 110 outlet though? A 240v would be a couple hours I think. 

Correct, you guys in the US use Center core transformers that mean you have 240v at your homes but split into two actives/phases to make 110v. I doubt that wiring up a 240v charger in the garage would be overly expensive and even if it was 2.4 Kwhr (10 amp), that would mean a 14.4 Kwhr PHEV Escape would easily charge overnight.

 

I’m always leery/suspicious of research that says most PHEV owners don’t charge their vehicles as it suits the narrative of legislators in Europe to pursue a course that down plays those vehicles roles in transitioning the population away from efficient diesels, once championed by those governments.  So yeah, demonise PHEV in order to advance BEV sales. 

Edited by jpd80

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1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Basically, when generating electricity using coal, 2/3 of fuel heat is wasted not that differently than an ICE vehicle.  So to my poorly worded example, when a 120 MPGe Tesla is charged from coal-electricity, it generates more CO2 than a 40 MPG ICE or HEV.

 

Just as an example:

Escape PHEV generates 160 g/mi of tailpipe and upstream GHG in my state. It goes up to 200 in a place that uses coal (see below for more info)

MME generates 110 g/mi

In my state its roughly a 50/50 mix of Natural Gas and Nuclear power. 

 

If you want to go the coal route (I used a WV zip code since 91% of their power is generated via coal) the Mach E generates 160 g/mi

 

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?year=2022&vehicleId=45144&zipCode=26554&action=bt3

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45 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Correct, you guys in the US use Center core transformers that mean you have 240v at your homes but split into two actives/phases to make 110v. I doubt that wiring up a 240v charger in the garage would be overly expensive and even if it was 2.4 Kwhr (10 amp), that would mean a 14.4 Kwhr PHEV Escape would easily charge overnight.

 


Larger and/or newer house usually have 2 100 amp 120v connections.  The house load is split between the two legs with each leg providing 120v to neutral (ground/earth).  For 240v you take one hot lead from each leg and tie them together.  That’s easy due to double pole circuit breakers that span both legs in the panel.  So it’s as simple as installing a new breaker (assuming the panel has room) and running 12, 10, 8 or 6 gauge wire depending on the breaker amp rating.

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I understand that it's fairly simple to install a 240V outlet, which is what I told salesman that downplayed PHEV. But I've wired entire houses in the past and am not intimidated by DYI projects. But if the average person has to hire an electrician, it could be pricey. And the charging station and cable Ford sells to homeowners is around $1300. So there are costs involved even if you do your own install.

Edited by dmpaul

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