2024 Nautilus -- Feedback for Ford/Lincoln Management

[ice-capades]

27 minutes ago, saintlaz1 said:

The only thing expected would be like the order number and a pending production status I thought that’s how that worked 

 

Talk to your Dealer which has the order number. There is really no production status information until the order gets scheduled.  

[akirby]

28 minutes ago, saintlaz1 said:

The only thing expected would be like the order number and a pending production status I thought that’s how that worked 

Your dealer has the order number.  They assign it anyway not Ford.  Each dealer has their own code.  Your dealer has all available information at all times.  You don’t need Ford.

 

Your status is clean unscheduled and will remain that way until the ok to buy status has been reached which is usually 2-3 weeks after job 1.  It requires 5 consecutive days of error free builds.  Until that happens your order cannot be scheduled.  So there is nothing to report until then.

[mustang84isu]

On 5/24/2023 at 7:49 PM, Gurgeh said:

Starting in 2017 with release of the new Continental and followed in short order by the all-new Navigator, the updated MKX (the Nautilus), the Aviator and Corsair, Lincoln appeared to be making a serious move toward revitalization and sales were improving. But the new Continental never really caught on as much as many hoped and Lincoln never made an effort to update it. Then FMC decided to shut down all sedans in North America (pretending initially that Lincoln was excluded), and then further development of the line seemed to come to a screeching halt with the all-new Nautilus canceled (later revised for China and now being brought here) and then the Rivian-derived large flagship electric vehicle also canceled. So now Lincoln has just 4 vehicles, which almost became 3. We'll see if FMC actually plans another revitalization effort as the company moves along its electrification route. What Lincoln needs is a vision, fiercely competitive product (and more of them), and maybe an impressive halo sedan (or pretend large crossover with a sloped back and lower stance -- so yeah, pretty much a sedan). But all of that takes serious investment and an actual commitment to the brand. I'm not saying make stuff luxury buyers don't want; there's lots of product out there in the luxury field that does sell. FMC really needs to decide whether to compete full-on in the luxury space on a sustained basis. Just look how far and how fast Genesis has risen in the field. It is possible, but again it takes sustained commitment, a vision, great products and resources.

 

Back on topic, I'll be getting the 2024 Nautilus (I have a Black Label on order), which will be my second Lincoln. It is fine with me that the more powerful engine option is a hybrid, though I'd like it to have at least (and ideally more) power than the outgoing excellent twin scroll V6. I would really like to be able to avoid oversized wheels that Lincoln wants to forced me into; I may go as far as to buy my own and put them on. I wish it wasn't coming from China, but I understand the special circumstances that made this necessary at least as a stop-gap measure. If the Nautilus wasn't being brought over from China -- the only realistic option in the short term -- Lincoln would have lost me as a customer as I look to replace my 2019 Nautilus. I like the unique cabin configuration, with the smaller steering wheel and the sweep of screens above the wheel displaying driver information. Even with its recent problems, Lincoln continues to arguably have the best interiors in the business.

Agreed, Lincoln was looking really good around 2017-18.  I have a '17 Continental, and there might be some bias, but I think it is one of the best designs Lincoln has had in many years even though it was a little watered down from the concept.  Aviator was also very well done.  They lost some momentum after the Continental was cancelled, then more when the MKZ ended production, and it just feels like they've been really flat-footed the last several years while Ford has come out with some hits such as the Bronco and Maverick that have helped bolster the lineup as sedans were cancelled.  Lincoln sales were finally in an upswing pre-2020 where it looked like they might finally be catching up to Cadillac, but now looking at June 2023's numbers they were sub 7,000 in North America and again toward the bottom of the pack in the North American luxury market.  It's pretty frustrating to see.

The styling became much more refined with the 2017 Continental and beyond, but I feel like the newest-generation that is adopting design cues from the Chinese models will not age well.  It doesn't look upscale to me.  They have fussy details like the vehicle badge "swoosh" on the side of the newest Chinese models that looks like an afterthought and doesn't need to be there.  The grilles have also gotten more flat and lifeless.  It kind of reminds me of the first gen MKZ, which looked pretty decent (despite being severely watered down from the Zephyr concept), and then the 2010-12 MKZ MCE had the weirdly proportioned split wing grille tacked on.

 

I think the Star Concept is interesting.  However, Lincoln has a problem of creating amazing looking concepts, but the production models ends up so watered down that they never seem to get the brand fully out of its rut...then the MCE is worse...then they have to "reinvent" themselves.  We are seriously on the third or fourth design reinvention in 20 years.

Edited July 9, 2023 by mustang84isu

[Ares]

Just adding on to what mustang84isu stated, I really liked the refined style Lincoln was headed in with the Continental and Navigator. In my eyes, they were becoming an American Volvo in terms of design. Now they are adopting cues from the Chinese models, the design language is headed towards something a bit more trendy. Which is fine because I understand vehicles shouldn't look the same forever and the new looks may help sales, but man 2016-2020 was an exciting time seeing Lincoln revive itself with the stunning Continental, Navigator, and Aviator concepts. They were bold but timeless looking. 

[mustang84isu]

While I'm not the biggest fan of Tesla, one thing they do that I wish more car companies would do is really refine the exterior styling.  Their greenhouses 

15 hours ago, matt6 said:

Just adding on to what mustang84isu stated, I really liked the refined style Lincoln was headed in with the Continental and Navigator. In my eyes, they were becoming an American Volvo in terms of design. Now they are adopting cues from the Chinese models, the design language is headed towards something a bit more trendy.

 

And that is probably the biggest thing that bothers me.  Lincoln has for most of its history been pretty timeless and not very trendy.  With the exception of the late 50's and maybe the malaise era, they typically avoided superfluous details and design elements.  The '61 Continental basically ended the era of tailfins and ushered in cleaner styling for all American automakers.  That's one of the few times they were a trend setter, but it was a good one, and those Continentals are still held in high regard today.
 

I am hoping the shift to EV will help Lincoln, because it seems like EV almost makes designers reset in how they think about proportions and exterior design elements.  A lot of the old hardpoints and compromises you have to make to fit an engine go away.

[Gurgeh]

8 hours ago, mustang84isu said:

While I'm not the biggest fan of Tesla, one thing they do that I wish more car companies would do is really refine the exterior styling.  Their greenhouses 

 

And that is probably the biggest thing that bothers me.  Lincoln has for most of its history been pretty timeless and not very trendy.  With the exception of the late 50's and maybe the malaise era, they typically avoided superfluous details and design elements.  The '61 Continental basically ended the era of tailfins and ushered in cleaner styling for all American automakers.  That's one of the few times they were a trend setter, but it was a good one, and those Continentals are still held in high regard today.
 

I am hoping the shift to EV will help Lincoln, because it seems like EV almost makes designers reset in how they think about proportions and exterior design elements.  A lot of the old hardpoints and compromises you have to make to fit an engine go away.

Just goes to show that style is so much in the eye of the beholder. I get what you are saying. For instance, I think the current Range Rover Sport's exterior style is timeless, clean and amazingly great in a wholistic way. Same with some of the classic Lincolns you mention. A few others I can think of? The Y2K VW Passat and the Acura TL from about the same era. They both looked carved out of a solid block into an understated work of art. But Tesla? The S has a great looking exterior, but all the rest, in my view, are over-the-top bland. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Gurgeh

[Andrew L]

On 7/10/2023 at 1:44 PM, mustang84isu said:

While I'm not the biggest fan of Tesla, one thing they do that I wish more car companies would do is really refine the exterior styling.  Their greenhouses 

 

And that is probably the biggest thing that bothers me.  Lincoln has for most of its history been pretty timeless and not very trendy.  With the exception of the late 50's and maybe the malaise era, they typically avoided superfluous details and design elements.  The '61 Continental basically ended the era of tailfins and ushered in cleaner styling for all American automakers.  That's one of the few times they were a trend setter, but it was a good one, and those Continentals are still held in high regard today.
 

I am hoping the shift to EV will help Lincoln, because it seems like EV almost makes designers reset in how they think about proportions and exterior design elements.  A lot of the old hardpoints and compromises you have to make to fit an engine go away.

 

You could argue the Mark VII also.  If you think about it most luxury cars were so boxy during this era where the Mark was smoothed out and had rounded edges and composite headlights... first time since the 30s an American car had them.  It was such a dramatic departure from the Mark VI or really any luxury coupe of that era.  It would lead to the styling of the 88 Continental and 90 Town Car.  The real car that pushed the aero styling and smoothed corners and flush headlights would definitely be the Taurus but that came out in 1986 and the Mark predated that by 2 years.  Of course the Mark VIII was also a very dramatic redesign too but not as dramatic as the VI to the VII.

 

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I think Lincoln styling is pretty good now, the grill fiasco is finally over and the lineup has a unified look which wasn't the case for most of the 2000s and 2010s.  I hope they build on what they have and keep certain elements.  The full width tail light, L I N C O L N spelled out across the back, the prominent grill and light up emblem are things I would like to see retained.  Headlights seem to be hit or miss but I hope they can find something that works.

 

Probably my favorite styling era of Lincoln in recent years was probably the early 2000s.  I am probably biased but I own an 04 Aviator and owned an 04 LS.  The LS aged so gracefully I still see them on the road from time to time and I think they are just beautifully styled.  I love the Lincoln "shield" grill of that era and works so well on the entire lineup.  Town Car, Aviator, Navigator, LS.  The lineup looked so tight and together IMO.  It's a shame Lincoln got kicked from the PAG and was left to suffer.  The redesigns and lineup after that era left a LOT to be desired.  Zephyr was a half baked attempt.  Yeah it made way more money for Ford than the LS ever did but it cut so many features that the LS had and was nothing more than a Fusion rebadge.  At least when it got renamed to MKZ it got a better engine but still missed a lot. That era that followed was a dark time for Lincoln.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Andrew L

[CurtisH]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:06 PM, Gurgeh said:

. . . .  The S has a great looking exterior, but all the rest, in my view, are over-the-top bland. 

This.  
 

The S is also the only Tesla interior I care for. 

[mustang84isu]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:06 PM, Gurgeh said:

Just goes to show that style is so much in the eye of the beholder. I get what you are saying. For instance, I think the current Range Rover Sport's exterior style is timeless, clean and amazingly great in a wholistic way. Same with some of the classic Lincolns you mention. A few others I can think of? The Y2K VW Passat and the Acura TL from about the same era. They both looked carved out of a solid block into an understated work of art. But Tesla? The S has a great looking exterior, but all the rest, in my view, are over-the-top bland. 

I just realized I started a thought with Tesla and apparently never finished it.  What I was trying to say is I really don't care for Tesla's greenhouses (the X and Y have some pretty terrible proportions), but the S and 3 have a simplicity to them and a shape that still make them look pretty fresh despite being long in the tooth.  They strip out all the unnecessary design elements and have some simple but strong body forms that make the car recognizable even if all the badges went away.  Kind of like Porsche and others.  The Lincoln Mark X and 2002 Continental Concepts did the same.  That Continental concept is now over 20 years old and still looks modern, except perhaps the grille.  Lincoln has such a rich heritage they could build from and still make it modern and elegant, and I think they were doing this well until recently...but it feels like they are taking a wrong turn again with the Chinese design language.

Edited July 14, 2023 by mustang84isu

[mustang84isu]

9 hours ago, Andrew L said:

Probably my favorite styling era of Lincoln in recent years was probably the early 2000s.  I am probably biased but I own an 04 Aviator and owned an 04 LS.  The LS aged so gracefully I still see them on the road from time to time and I think they are just beautifully styled.  I love the Lincoln "shield" grill of that era and works so well on the entire lineup.  Town Car, Aviator, Navigator, LS.  The lineup looked so tight and together IMO.  It's a shame Lincoln got kicked from the PAG and was left to suffer.  The redesigns and lineup after that era left a LOT to be desired.  Zephyr was a half baked attempt.  Yeah it made way more money for Ford than the LS ever did but it cut so many features that the LS had and was nothing more than a Fusion rebadge.  At least when it got renamed to MKZ it got a better engine but still missed a lot. That era that followed was a dark time for Lincoln.

I had an '01 LS and loved that thing.  Agree, they still look good today when I occasionally see them on the road.  I never understood the Mitsubishi Diamante comments--the LS looked far more Germanic and felt more solid (well, the doors at least - the creaky center console, not so much).  Early 2000's Lincolns were a good era for design, and had the other PAG brands not stolen Lincoln's budget, I do agree they probably would have been more successful going into the later 2000's.  I feel like Lincoln hit rock bottom around 2013 when the MKS and MKT were refreshed with that stupid baleen whale grille, and they continued to struggle for a few more years with the Max Wolff styling.  Ironically, Max Wolff is the design director for China, so maybe that is why I don't like the newest Lincolns that are coming out.

[Andrew L]

9 hours ago, mustang84isu said:

I had an '01 LS and loved that thing.  Agree, they still look good today when I occasionally see them on the road.  I never understood the Mitsubishi Diamante comments--the LS looked far more Germanic and felt more solid (well, the doors at least - the creaky center console, not so much).  Early 2000's Lincolns were a good era for design, and had the other PAG brands not stolen Lincoln's budget, I do agree they probably would have been more successful going into the later 2000's.  I feel like Lincoln hit rock bottom around 2013 when the MKS and MKT were refreshed with that stupid baleen whale grille, and they continued to struggle for a few more years with the Max Wolff styling.  Ironically, Max Wolff is the design director for China, so maybe that is why I don't like the newest Lincolns that are coming out.

 

IIRC Max Wolff had nothing to do with the MKS and MKT refresh I think he was only there to introduce them.  I remember his BIG contribution was flipping the bars on the 2013 MKZ from vertical to horizontal and that apparently shocked and amazed everyone... at least that's how the story went.  I can't remember which vehicle was 100% his but I think it was the MKC but he was out of Lincoln by 2014 so who knows.

 

I agree with the refreshed MKS and MKT not looking great.  MKT didn't look great from the beginning but Peter Horbury went on record saying it was rushed and he was disappointed with it.  A lot was lost in translation with the MKT Concept.

 

Personally I was never crazy about the split wing grill.  I always felt the smaller it was the better design wise like the first MKS.  When it got too big like the 2010-2012 MKZ or the MKT it just looked wrong. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

IIRC Max Wolff had nothing to do with the MKS and MKT refresh I think he was only there to introduce them.  I remember his BIG contribution was flipping the bars on the 2013 MKZ from vertical to horizontal and that apparently shocked and amazed everyone... at least that's how the story went.  I can't remember which vehicle was 100% his but I think it was the MKC but he was out of Lincoln by 2014 so who knows.

 

I agree with the refreshed MKS and MKT not looking great.  MKT didn't look great from the beginning but Peter Horbury went on record saying it was rushed and he was disappointed with it.  A lot was lost in translation with the MKT Concept.

 

Personally I was never crazy about the split wing grill.  I always felt the smaller it was the better design wise like the first MKS.  When it got too big like the 2010-2012 MKZ or the MKT it just looked wrong. 

I never cared much for the split wing but the later versions were a lot better.  The current design is perfect to me.  Classy and elegant.  I like the 2024 designs but not as much as the current ones.  We’ll be keeping our 22 Nautilus a long time.

 

I had a 00 LS v8 sport and there was a significant Mitsubishi resemblance from certain angles.  Exterior was great but the interior was underwhelming.

 

Never liked the MKT.

[tbone]

2 hours ago, Andrew L said:

 

IIRC Max Wolff had nothing to do with the MKS and MKT refresh I think he was only there to introduce them.  I remember his BIG contribution was flipping the bars on the 2013 MKZ from vertical to horizontal and that apparently shocked and amazed everyone... at least that's how the story went.  I can't remember which vehicle was 100% his but I think it was the MKC but he was out of Lincoln by 2014 so who knows.

 

I agree with the refreshed MKS and MKT not looking great.  MKT didn't look great from the beginning but Peter Horbury went on record saying it was rushed and he was disappointed with it.  A lot was lost in translation with the MKT Concept.

 

Personally I was never crazy about the split wing grill.  I always felt the smaller it was the better design wise like the first MKS.  When it got too big like the 2010-2012 MKZ or the MKT it just looked wrong. 

The MKT never looked good in any way, shape, or form IMO.  

[ice-capades]

24 minutes ago, tbone said:

The MKT never looked good in any way, shape, or form IMO.  

 

I'm not disagreeing, but when you saw an MKT on the road, you always took notice whether you liked it or not!

[brucelinc]

I had a Continental from 2017 until late 2021.   While the styling was not offensive, I thought it was much too bland.     While the failure of the Continental could easily be blamed on consumer's move to utility vehicles, it also was not special enough in any way to attract many new  buyers.   Additionally, like many other models,  it was never updated or improved  throughout it's lifespan.    It had some nice features....excellent comfortable 30 way seats, soft close doors, approach lighting, etc.   It had good fit/finish and I liked mine, especially for long road trips.    However, it was not as quiet as a luxury car should be nor did it have a particularly compliant ride quality.    The 6 speed transmission did not match up well with the 3.0 twin-turbo.   They built so much torque management into it that acceleration was a surge/lag, surge/lag affair.

 

When I decided to replace my Conti and started shopping other brands, the Continental's shortcomings became even more clear.   It was simply not up to par with  BMW, Lexus, or Genesis in terms of ride, quietness or mechanical prowess.    While I haven't driven any of the Lincoln utility vehicles, it appears that management is taking that market more seriously than they did the sedan market.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, brucelinc said:

I had a Continental from 2017 until late 2021.   While the styling was not offensive, I thought it was much too bland.     While the failure of the Continental could easily be blamed on consumer's move to utility vehicles, it also was not special enough in any way to attract many new  buyers.   Additionally, like many other models,  it was never updated or improved  throughout it's lifespan.    It had some nice features....excellent comfortable 30 way seats, soft close doors, approach lighting, etc.   It had good fit/finish and I liked mine, especially for long road trips.    However, it was not as quiet as a luxury car should be nor did it have a particularly compliant ride quality.    The 6 speed transmission did not match up well with the 3.0 twin-turbo.   They built so much torque management into it that acceleration was a surge/lag, surge/lag affair.

 

When I decided to replace my Conti and started shopping other brands, the Continental's shortcomings became even more clear.   It was simply not up to par with  BMW, Lexus, or Genesis in terms of ride, quietness or mechanical prowess.    While I haven't driven any of the Lincoln utility vehicles, it appears that management is taking that market more seriously than they did the sedan market.

This is where CD6 would have paid dividends especially if it had been developed a decade earlier.  

[mustang84isu]

On 7/14/2023 at 7:00 AM, Andrew L said:

 

IIRC Max Wolff had nothing to do with the MKS and MKT refresh I think he was only there to introduce them.  I remember his BIG contribution was flipping the bars on the 2013 MKZ from vertical to horizontal and that apparently shocked and amazed everyone... at least that's how the story went.  I can't remember which vehicle was 100% his but I think it was the MKC but he was out of Lincoln by 2014 so who knows.

 

I agree with the refreshed MKS and MKT not looking great.  MKT didn't look great from the beginning but Peter Horbury went on record saying it was rushed and he was disappointed with it.  A lot was lost in translation with the MKT Concept.

 

Personally I was never crazy about the split wing grill.  I always felt the smaller it was the better design wise like the first MKS.  When it got too big like the 2010-2012 MKZ or the MKT it just looked wrong. 

I looked Max up on LinkedIn and he is listed as Lincoln Design Director from 2011-2015.  I remember him being responsible for the 2013 MKZ...which I think was the first model with the split wing grille with horizontal bars.  I didn't necessarily hate the new direction, but I didn't love it either.  I feel like the split wing translated pretty well on some vehicles like the MKC....not so great on others such as the MKZ.

David Woodhouse took over as Lincoln Design Director in 2016.  Apparently Kemal Curic was the one who was the lead designer for the 2015 Mustang, 2017 Continental, and 2020 Aviator, which are all excellent designs, IMO.  It sounds like he was also involved with the Star concept.  No idea who is involved with the current Lincolns coming out of China.

[Andrew L]

1 hour ago, mustang84isu said:

I looked Max up on LinkedIn and he is listed as Lincoln Design Director from 2011-2015.  I remember him being responsible for the 2013 MKZ...which I think was the first model with the split wing grille with horizontal bars.  I didn't necessarily hate the new direction, but I didn't love it either.  I feel like the split wing translated pretty well on some vehicles like the MKC....not so great on others such as the MKZ.

David Woodhouse took over as Lincoln Design Director in 2016.  Apparently Kemal Curic was the one who was the lead designer for the 2015 Mustang, 2017 Continental, and 2020 Aviator, which are all excellent designs, IMO.  It sounds like he was also involved with the Star concept.  No idea who is involved with the current Lincolns coming out of China.

 

I went back and looked it up, the MKC was 100% his but the MKZ design was pretty much done when he came on board (remember the concept was revealed at the beginning of 2012 he wouldn't have had enough time to do the entire car)  the only thing he did was change the grill, there are spy shots of the 2013 MKZ with vertical grill bars, I agree the horizontal bars look better. 

 

https://www.carscoops.com/2012/04/2013-lincoln-mkz-new-split-grille-won/

 

Mays credits the styling of the MKZ's grille to Lincoln's new design boss, Max Wolff, who came in from Cadillac in 2010 after the car's design had been finalized.

"I'll give credit to Max on that. When I brought him in from GM, he said, 'Is there anything we can do to the grille?' I said, 'There's loads we can do with the grille. What do you have in mind?' He wanted to keep the split grille, which I think is a good decision, but he wanted to experiment with changing the grille bars from vertical to horizontal," Mays said.

 

Spy shots:

 

 

[Andrew L]

Here's my attempt at photoshopping the 13 MKS grill into the 13 MKZ for what it's worth.  Apparently this is what it was going to look like before Wolff changed it.  Personally I think the horizontal bars was the right move.

[mustang84isu]

Speaking of Photoshop, here's a quick sketch of how I wish they would have done the Continental.
1. RWD & RWD proportions

2. Reduce the height of the front cowl

3. Get rid of lower chrome strip / more sculptural body

4. Skinnier upper chrome Continental badge

 

All minor changes, but I think they would have helped a bit.

[Ares]

5 hours ago, mustang84isu said:

Speaking of Photoshop, here's a quick sketch of how I wish they would have done the Continental.
1. RWD & RWD proportions

2. Reduce the height of the front cowl

3. Get rid of lower chrome strip / more sculptural body

4. Skinnier upper chrome Continental badge

 

All minor changes, but I think they would have helped a bit.

Looks good! Removing that chrome strip made quite a difference. I might have a go at this later today myself! 

[Andrew L]

8 hours ago, mustang84isu said:

Speaking of Photoshop, here's a quick sketch of how I wish they would have done the Continental.
1. RWD & RWD proportions

2. Reduce the height of the front cowl

3. Get rid of lower chrome strip / more sculptural body

4. Skinnier upper chrome Continental badge

 

All minor changes, but I think they would have helped a bit.

 

All nice changes, the cowl doesn't bother me that much but the RWD proportions would have been nice.  Would have really helped the Coach Door model look even nicer too.

[Ares]

Did something different and photoshopped a hypothetical RWD-biased next gen Continental.
 

[brucelinc]

I would have preferred the Continental go a bit more toward the 4 door "coupe" profile....like this BMW 8 series.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, brucelinc said:

I would have preferred the Continental go a bit more toward the 4 door "coupe" profile....like this BMW 8 series.

That looks too much like a BMW to me.