Auto Execs Are Coming Clean, EVs Are Just Not Working...

[Rangers09]

56 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

Did I read correctly that $15,000 “free” hydrogen would provide about 30,000 miles of driving?  I hope I misread it because $0.50 per mile is extremely expensive.  I think e-Fuel has better future possibility than that, and that too is cost prohibitive at present.

 

Locally Hydrogen refueling costs CAN S12.75 kg. Cars reportedly achieve about 55 - 60 miles per kg. Therefore, the cost per mile is CAN $ 0.21 to CAN $0.23. Converted to US $, it is about 17 cents per mile.

 

Our local gas prices are currently CAN $ 1.799/litre, which is CAN $ 8.18 per Imperial Gallon. Therefore, a gas powered car attaining 38 mpg would be consistent with local hydrogen costs per mile.

 

Another factor is the hydrogen cost, as most of our hydrogen is manufactured locally from cheap hydro-electric power.

[silvrsvt]

3 hours ago, Deanh said:

not sure I specifically stated Hydrogen would replace BEVS, but I have a short term memory for some subjects...I DID state it wouldnt surprize me if a viable alternative reared its head of which Hydrogen has to be one ( synthetic gasoline was also mentioned ) 

 

But we had the talk about Synthetic gas also-there is absolutely no way that they can scale it up to completely replace what gasoline is now. Yeah its a great idea to keep your 2020 Mustang topped off in 2070 or something...but its not going to fix the issue.

 

EVs are the least worst solution for reducing CO2 emissions out of all the options and pretty much anything else all it is good for is to create noise to keep people from using it. 

 

The two biggest issues are charging, which will improve as time goes on and range, which will be less of an issue if you can charge almost anywhere. If you can charge up in 10-20 minutes from say 1% to 80% the problem is pretty much a non issue. The other problem is just mindset-I know lots of people feel the need to keep their cars filled all the time, but if you can plug in almost anywhere-does it really matter? 

 

 

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, Rangers09 said:

 

There may be many challenges, but it is being developed gradually in British Columbia.

 

We now have 5 hydrogen filling stations for hydrogen powered cars, of which we have about 50 currently on the road. Unlike BEV's, they are developing and introducing this technology to address the range and refueling issues experienced with BEV's. The range is about 400 miles and refueling time is consistent with gas/diesel. The hydrogen refueling points are located in regular gas stations.

 

And its been discussed that hydrogen does have its use its in some situations, it is not the panacea that people make it out to be either. 

[Rangers09]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

And its been discussed that hydrogen does have its use its in some situations, it is not the panacea that people make it out to be either. 

 

Exactly the same can be said for BEV's, with their limitations and costs they are clearly not the panacea, some people make them out to be. At least the hydrogen option locally is being gradually introduced, as the technology evolves, with fueling stations available, and the cars have decent range and filling times.

 

I guess time will tell, which technology eventually replaces ICE. Personally, I am keeping an open mind, as neither BEV or Hydrogen works for me, at this time. With respect to hydrogen, locally we only have 2 vehicle options available, a Toyota and a Hyundai. These are also available to everyday purchasers, not just fleet operators, and are available 2nd hand from MY 2018/19

 

Clearly, southern BC must be one of those situations, as hydrogen vehicles have operated here since about 2018. I believe California also has some hydrogen stations and the same 2 vehicle options as us.

[GearheadGrrrl]

14 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But we had the talk about Synthetic gas also-there is absolutely no way that they can scale it up to completely replace what gasoline is now. Yeah its a great idea to keep your 2020 Mustang topped off in 2070 or something...but its not going to fix the issue.

 

EVs are the least worst solution for reducing CO2 emissions out of all the options and pretty much anything else all it is good for is to create noise to keep people from using it. 

 

The two biggest issues are charging, which will improve as time goes on and range, which will be less of an issue if you can charge almost anywhere. If you can charge up in 10-20 minutes from say 1% to 80% the problem is pretty much a non issue. The other problem is just mindset-I know lots of people feel the need to keep their cars filled all the time, but if you can plug in almost anywhere-does it really matter? 

 

 

But the reality is that electric propulsion will not work for all users.

 

For those of us that live in rural areas or apartments or have heavy stuff to haul renewable fuels make much more sense than electrification. And while even in the U.S. we currently can't produce enough biomass to meet all of our liquid fuel needs, we can cover at least 30% of them and more with current technology. And for the small town gas stations out here that can't even afford to pave their premises, instead of million dollar investments in charging stations renewable fuels can use much of the current gas and diesel infrastructure.

 

Why change your whole vehicle when you just need to change fuels?

[Deanh]

15 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

But we had the talk about Synthetic gas also-there is absolutely no way that they can scale it up to completely replace what gasoline is now. Yeah its a great idea to keep your 2020 Mustang topped off in 2070 or something...but its not going to fix the issue.

 

EVs are the least worst solution for reducing CO2 emissions out of all the options and pretty much anything else all it is good for is to create noise to keep people from using it. 

 

The two biggest issues are charging, which will improve as time goes on and range, which will be less of an issue if you can charge almost anywhere. If you can charge up in 10-20 minutes from say 1% to 80% the problem is pretty much a non issue. The other problem is just mindset-I know lots of people feel the need to keep their cars filled all the time, but if you can plug in almost anywhere-does it really matter? 

 

 

and to flip that around I doubt EVs will ever scale up to completely replace ICE either, at least not in mine and yours and your kids lifetime.......but the infrastructure for a gasoline equivilent  is already in place in the form of Gas stations....my fingers are crossed, I doubt EV charging will ever get to the conveinience of a 3 minuts gas fill up, but maybe 10 years down the road that type of chargingwill rear its head, but the consequence will be the redundancy of all the EVs without that capacity...ICE on a sythetic gasoline?...no redundancy, less waste...most likely wishful thinking...but... 

[ice-capades]

14 minutes ago, Deanh said:

and to flip that around I doubt EVs will ever scale up to completely replace ICE either, at least not in mine and yours and your kids lifetime.......but the infrastructure for a gasoline equivilent  is already in place in the form of Gas stations....my fingers are crossed, I doubt EV charging will ever get to the conveinience of a 3 minuts gas fill up, but maybe 10 years down the road that type of chargingwill rear its head, but the consequence will be the redundancy of all the EVs without that capacity...ICE on a sythetic gasoline?...no redundancy, less waste...most likely wishful thinking...but... 

 

Current gas station locations are obviously the best locations for BEV charging in the future, but it won't happen until the battery technology advances, perhaps when solid state battery technology is in place.  

[Deanh]

28 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

Current gas station locations are obviously the best locations for BEV charging in the future, but it won't happen until the battery technology advances, perhaps when solid state battery technology is in place.  

agreed...but until EVs can drive in, park, charge in  the 3-5 minutes ( and thats going to be years at least ) there will be lines of irate people...something Ive already witnessed along with broiling hostility...... Ill just continue to wave nicely as Im filling with 91 octane.... 

[Gurgeh]

So far most of the folks who own EVs are the well-off with garages outfitted for overnight charging. So the big need has been charging stations on highways and interstates to support road trips, plus some in town for folks who reach their destinations on said trips and for local folks who like to top up when at work or out shopping. But if EVs are really going to replace ICE vehicles in the relative near future, a heck of a lot more in-town charging is going to be needed for the huge number of folks who have to make do with street parking or who live in apartments and condos that lack the ability to do overnight charging.

 

Over time, of course, the transition will happen and will be successful. Battery technology will improve, allowing for longer range and faster charging. More apartment and condo parking spots will gain EV-charging capabilities. Many gas station sites will be converted over to (increasingly quick) charging stations. The vast amount of needed new baseload electricity generating (and delivery from the plant to the home) capacity will be built, and hopefully will not get mired by the kind of political fights we too often see. The government will support rather than impede the development of new domestic (and friendly-sourced) metal and mineral mining capacity needed for EV and battery production. EVs will become less expensive (and hopefully electricity prices will come down instead of continuing on their current path of rapid price increases), allowing ownership to break out of its initial ghetto of the well-off. And overall, the vehicles and support structure will give folks with only one car the peace of mind they need to make it an electric. But while the transition will happen, it will get complicated at times and won't be as quick as some hope.

[Deanh]

4 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

So far most of the folks who own EVs are the well-off with garages outfitted for overnight charging. So the big need has been charging stations on highways and interstates to support road trips, plus some in town for folks who reach their destinations on said trips and for local folks who like to top up when at work or out shopping. But if EVs are really going to replace ICE vehicles in the relative near future, a heck of a lot more in-town charging is going to be needed for the huge number of folks who have to make do with street parking or who live in apartments and condos that lack the ability to do overnight charging.

 

Over time, of course, the transition will happen and will be successful. Battery technology will improve, allowing for longer range and faster charging. More apartment and condo parking spots will gain EV-charging capabilities. Many gas station sites will be converted over to (increasingly quick) charging stations. The vast amount of needed new baseload electricity generating (and delivery from the plant to the home) capacity will be built, and hopefully will not get mired by the kind of political fights we too often see. The government will support rather than impede the development of new domestic (and friendly-sourced) metal and mineral mining capacity needed for EV and battery production. EVs will become less expensive (and hopefully electricity prices will come down instead of continuing on their current path of rapid price increases), allowing ownership to break out of its initial ghetto of the well-off. And overall, the vehicles and support structure will give folks with only one car the peace of mind they need to make it an electric. But while the transition will happen, it will get complicated at times and won't be as quick as some hope.

what Im apprehensive about there is whos going to tell the Electric suppliers to cap what they bill?...more Govt intervention?...sure doesnt work when it comes to gas, and if you create a dependency and monopoly on electric need, it can, and dare I say WILL lead to outside control and regulation ( no power, no charged car, no lights, no cooking, no hot water, no heating....nothing...)...literally someone can flick a switch and then its "youre on youre own". Not sure I for one am completely comfortable with that.....  

Edited November 9, 2023 by Deanh

[LSchicago]

4 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

Current gas station locations are obviously the best locations for BEV charging in the future, but it won't happen until the battery technology advances, perhaps when solid state battery technology is in place.  

 

BP/Amoco ordered $100 Million dollars worth of Tesla Chargers a couple weeks ago. Soon they will start appearing in stations. 

[rperez817]

10 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

 

BP/Amoco ordered $100 Million dollars worth of Tesla Chargers a couple weeks ago. Soon they will start appearing in stations. 

 

That's correct LSchicago. Here is the press release. bp boosts EV charging network with $100 million order of Tesla ultra-fast chargers | News and insights | Home

 

"Strengthening the bp pulse network with Tesla’s industry-leading hardware is a major step forward in our ambitions for high speed, open access charging infrastructure in the US and advances our ambition to delivering an exceptional customer experience," said Richard Bartlett, global CEO of bp pulse. “Combined with our vast network of convenience and mobility sites on and off the highway, this collaboration with Tesla will bring fast and reliable charging to EV drivers when and where they need it.”

 

The Tesla ultra-fast chargers, which have an output of 250 kW, will be branded, installed and operated by bp pulse. The chargers will be fitted with Tesla’s ‘Magic Dock’, which is compatible with both North American Charging Standard (NACS) and Combined Charging System (CCS) connectors. This enables EVs from other major vehicle manufacturers to use the Tesla chargers on the bp pulse’s network, regardless of whether they use CCS or NACS ports. To further improve user experience, the Tesla chargers will support use of the Plug and Charge protocol, which simplifies and automates payments. As is Tesla's current policy, third-party operated ultra-fast chargers meeting Tesla's reliability and functionality requirements are featured in Tesla's vehicle UI and apps, and bp pulse expects to uphold those requirements on its network.

[Deanh]

14 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

 

BP/Amoco ordered $100 Million dollars worth of Tesla Chargers a couple weeks ago. Soon they will start appearing in stations. 

thats rather large...wonder how mnay it equates too?...then theres getting the juice to them ...thats a rather large underatking in itself....

[LSchicago]

12 minutes ago, Deanh said:

thats rather large...wonder how mnay it equates too?...then theres getting the juice to them ...thats a rather large underatking in itself....

 

Shouldn't be that big of a deal. But necessary to roll with the changes. I'm sure they will install Solar/wind power at most stations getting the upgrades to up their profit margins. Can't make nearly as much money if you have to buy the power. It's a long term investment, but it will pay off. 

[GearheadGrrrl]

53 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

 

Shouldn't be that big of a deal. But necessary to roll with the changes. I'm sure they will install Solar/wind power at most stations getting the upgrades to up their profit margins. Can't make nearly as much money if you have to buy the power. It's a long term investment, but it will pay off. 

Land around gas stations is too expensive for solar or wind, so beyond a few solar panels on the roof to virtue signal it won't happen.

[Deanh]

1 hour ago, LSchicago said:

 

Shouldn't be that big of a deal. But necessary to roll with the changes. I'm sure they will install Solar/wind power at most stations getting the upgrades to up their profit margins. Can't make nearly as much money if you have to buy the power. It's a long term investment, but it will pay off. 

and where will they install it...or will they rely on supply from the areas carrier ie Southern California Edison?...From what I have read, wind power isnt holding up to expectation and reliability, and is costing an awful lot more than its worth...several projects have been flat cancelled after billions of dollars of investment and GOVT subsidies ( well GOVT subsidies are your tax dollars at wirk ) ...Siemens is a major player and they just pulled out of a HUGE project ( although that was not in the US ) And solar is limited to areas and States that get sun consistantly....then theres the case of Texas...where they have everything necessary but experienced a complete grid failure due to a bout of inclement weather....

[LSchicago]

28 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Land around gas stations is too expensive for solar or wind, so beyond a few solar panels on the roof to virtue signal it won't happen.

 

They will use all the pump awnings for panels. Plenty of space there.  The footprint for a wind generator is actually pretty compact. A restaurant near me built one. See: Going Green | The Great Escape (greatescaperestaurant.com)

[LSchicago]

21 minutes ago, Deanh said:

and where will they install it...or will they rely on supply from the areas carrier ie Southern California Edison?...From what I have read, wind power isnt holding up to expectation and reliability, and is costing an awful lot more than its worth...several projects have been flat cancelled after billions of dollars of investment and GOVT subsidies ( well GOVT subsidies are your tax dollars at wirk ) ...Siemens is a major player and they just pulled out of a HUGE project ( although that was not in the US ) And solar is limited to areas and States that get sun consistantly....then theres the case of Texas...where they have everything necessary but experienced a complete grid failure due to a bout of inclement weather....

 

I am in IL, we don't get sun every day but a lot of houses have solar here. That really isn't a determining factor, but does limit the gains. A local restaurant installed a wind generator, and a 50KW back up generator. See post above for link.  

[Deanh]

17 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

 

I am in IL, we don't get sun every day but a lot of houses have solar here. That really isn't a determining factor, but does limit the gains. A local restaurant installed a wind generator, and a 50KW back up generator. See post above for link.  

all about scale....Solar is fine for individual housing..albeit its getting very expensive....but the scale required for countering the additional draw when everything is electric...is huge, and will require massive amounts of land let alone $....I think the mindset for energy sources needs a bit of a re-calibration....nice link by the way....spendy buggers those "fans"....and friggen butt ass ugly unfortunately...

Edited November 9, 2023 by Deanh

[LSchicago]

9 minutes ago, Deanh said:

all about scale....Solar is fine for individual housing..albeit its getting very expensive....but the scale required for countering the additional draw when everything is electric...is huge, and will require massive amounts of land let alone $....I think the mindset for energy sources needs a bit of a re-calibration.... 

 

Most will never use land for solar, unless You are in the country. Then you probably don't need that much solar. 

[Deanh]

11 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

 

Most will never use land for solar, unless You are in the country. Then you probably don't need that much solar. 

guess it depends on population density....here in So Cal its nuts, so the demand would be outrageous...we have solar on our house to counter a pool system, but "strangely" enough our power bill has gone up quite a lot...and Im NOT allowed to counter that with installing additional panels unless approved by our electricitry carrier...all about THEIR $$$$ not the person that shelled out $30k...I was also told NOT to get approval by the Solar installer as Im grandfathered into NEM1, if I did pony up for additional panels I would go to NEM2 which would wash out any solar gains. And to top it off...theres NO credits for pumping excess back into the grid...that gos , apparently, to people that NEED it...cough cough....try and figure THAT one out... regardless its a total cluster f--k, deliberately made massively confusing...but if every house had Solar here , there would be a massive excess here, then the issue would just be storage and there would be no blackouts or rationing AND it should become cheaper for everyone... 

[LSchicago]

10 minutes ago, Deanh said:

guess it depends on population density....here in So Cal its nuts, so the demand would be outrageous...we have solar on our house to counter a pool system, but "strangely" enough our power bill has gone up quite a lot...and Im NOT allowed to counter that with installing additional panels unless approved by our electricitry carrier...all about THEIR $$$$ not the person that shelled out $30k...I was also told NOT to get approval by the Solar installer as Im grandfathered into NEM1, if I did pony up for additional panels I would go to NEM2 which would wash out any solar gains. And to top it off...theres NO credits for pumping excess back into the grid...that gos , apparently, to people that NEED it...cough cough....try and figure THAT one out... regardless its a total cluster f--k, deliberately made massively confusing...but if every house had Solar here , there would be a massive excess here, then the issue would just be storage and there would be no blackouts or rationing AND it should become cheaper for everyone... 

 

Cali is one eternally F'd up state. My son lives in San Jose. But LA was talking about covering the Aquaduct to slow evaporation,  and gain huge amounts of solar power. See: Los Angeles Plans to Cover Aqueduct With Solar Panels (treehugger.com)

[Deanh]

28 minutes ago, LSchicago said:

 

Cali is one eternally F'd up state. My son lives in San Jose. But LA was talking about covering the Aquaduct to slow evaporation,  and gain huge amounts of solar power. See: Los Angeles Plans to Cover Aqueduct With Solar Panels (treehugger.com)

couldnt agree more...place needs an audit for all the wasteful spending here..its absurd..and a LOT of it is this "green deal" BS ....for instance, at the beginning of all this LA Sherrif Dept was mandated to spend X amount of dollars on electrci vehicles...they bought something like 120 BMW I3's...they sat, their only use was apparently for personal chores such as dropping off laundry etc etc ...HUGE waste of taxpayers money...but in their defence, if they had NOT spent the money, next years budget would have been reduced...how asinine is that?. Was over 10 million dollars and most never racked up more than 4 digits or less in mileage

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Deanh

[ice-capades]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

and where will they install it...or will they rely on supply from the areas carrier ie Southern California Edison?...From what I have read, wind power isnt holding up to expectation and reliability, and is costing an awful lot more than its worth...several projects have been flat cancelled after billions of dollars of investment and GOVT subsidies ( well GOVT subsidies are your tax dollars at wirk ) ...Siemens is a major player and they just pulled out of a HUGE project ( although that was not in the US ) And solar is limited to areas and States that get sun consistantly....then theres the case of Texas...where they have everything necessary but experienced a complete grid failure due to a bout of inclement weather....

 

One of the two largest utilities in CT cancelled its contract to participate in an offshore wind project due to the costs rising 2.5-3 times the estimates. 

[LSchicago]

8 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

One of the two largest utilities in CT cancelled its contract to participate in an offshore wind project due to the costs rising 2.5-3 times the estimates. 

 

Offshore sounds ridiculously expensive.