Ford CEO: Vertical Integration Will Increase with Move to EVs

[Deanh]

8 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Ok so I need to correct my information here. The plant will have the CAPACITY to build 200000 units but they expect to build 100000 a year when we start. That info could change now that they’re scaling back so until Ford really sheds light on the situation that’s all I know.

demand whether ip or down ahs a direct correlation with production numbers....but judging by what we are recieving in the way of truckloads I think theres a two month communication delay...we are getting Lightnings like crazy, thankfully cheaper XLTs which are still moving VERY slowly, but at least they are moving... 

[Oac98]

Yup I totally misread that! It’s not 200000 to start it’s 100000 lol!

[Oac98]

8 minutes ago, Deanh said:

demand whether ip or down ahs a direct correlation with production numbers....but judging by what we are recieving in the way of truckloads I think theres a two month communication delay...we are getting Lightnings like crazy, thankfully cheaper XLTs which are still moving VERY slowly, but at least they are moving... 

As long as their moving and I agree with what you’re saying 

[ice-capades]

11 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

Ok so I need to correct my information here. The plant will have the CAPACITY to build 200000 units but they expect to build 100000 a year when we start. That info could change now that they’re scaling back so until Ford really sheds light on the situation that’s all I know.

 

No doubt. Per usual, production will ramp up slowly based on production quality factors, customer reaction and demand, pricing, etc. 

[DeluxeStang]

58 minutes ago, T-dubz said:

I’d say sub $40k is a pipe dream. There’s mavericks and escapes that cost more than that. $50-60k like you suggest seems more reasonable. Ford wants to make a profit on these evs. They are unprofitable now. Even a substantial savings from smaller/cheaper batteries, cheaper manufacturing process, and economies of scale might not be enough to allow ford to pass savings on to customers. It might just mean the vehicles will now be making a profit instead of losing money at the same price. 

It is a pipe dream, but it sounds like this product needs some sort of miracle to succeed. 

[Rick73]

53 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

The difference between the hummer and Silverado is 10 kWh/100 miles.  In GA that’s $1.50 or less than $5 per 300 mile charge.  On a gas vehicle that’s a difference of less than 2 gallons of gas per fillup.  Nobody buying a $60k - $100k vehicle cares about $5/week.

 

What they care about is range and they only care about charge time if they’re on a long road trip and not charging at home.

 

Your obsession with efficiency doesn’t translate to the average buyer.

It absolutely does, and it’s hard to imagine how you don’t see the connection.  It is not directly at design level because average buyer is not technical enough to understand the difference.  Average buyer can only relate to end product (result) and its cost, performance, economy, etc.

 

Companies like Tesla and pretty much every manufacturer designing and manufacturing  EVs are doing everything in their power to increase vehicle energy efficiency as one of the best ways to reduce costs and make BEV ownership more desirable.  Are you denying this?  

 

Your reply above goes right back to only cost, and that’s not the entire picture.  The Silverado has much longer highway range than Hummer because it’s more efficient.  Period.  Whether a rich buyer cares about extra $5 to charge is not the point at all.  However, if it can travel another 50 miles in real driving, that’s a big deal.

[Oac98]

1 hour ago, ice-capades said:

 

No doubt. Per usual, production will ramp up slowly based on production quality factors, customer reaction and demand, pricing, etc. 

Yup all those factors come into play. 

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Hummers are not slightly less efficient, it’s a huge difference, and I expect the cumulative effect partly explains dismal sales..  There’s a reason they became the butt of so many jokes.  Below is EPA data compared to Silverado, and Hummer is no better if compared to Lightning.  Also note that in real-world highway driving, highway EPA rating is even worse, particularly for Hummer.

 

 

And a major difference between the Hummer and Silverado EV is the Hummer comes with 2 or 3 motors and the Silverado will only come with two. Which would go a long way to explain why the Silverado "is so much better" in your eyes. 

 

I didn't see any way to toggle between a 2 motor or 3 motor Hummer on Fuel economy.gov either, but I also don't think its out yet (saw Summer 2024?)

[silvrsvt]

Speaking of pricing 

 

GLOBAL EV SHOPPERS CITE PRICING AS BARRIER TO PURCHASE

 

Of the 7,500 people that S&P surveyed across the globe – not only in the U.S. – 48 percent said that EV prices are too high, even though they also understand that those types of vehicles tend to cost more than their ICE counterparts across the board. Pricing is now the number one barrier to EV adoption, the survey found, but it was also joined by some familiar reasons such as lack of charging infrastructure and range anxiety.

 

Regardless, things have changed over the past few years, as back in 2019, many respondents to a similar survey cited a lack of options as one of the main reasons why they weren’t considering the purchase of an EV. At that time, 58 percent of respondents said that they were open to buying an EV as their next new vehicle purchase, a number that soared to 86 percent in 2021. However, that same figure declined to just 67 percent in May of 2023, and 42 percent in this most recent survey.

 

According to S&P, there are a few good reasons for this sharp decline in interest among potential EV shoppers – chiefly among them, price fatigue, which has been fueled by soaring interest rates and inventory shortages. Thus, until automakers can figure out how to make cheaper EVs, it seems as if this trend might continue into the foreseeable future.

 

So Basically its what I've been saying-pricing and the economy. 

[Deanh]

10 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Speaking of pricing 

 

GLOBAL EV SHOPPERS CITE PRICING AS BARRIER TO PURCHASE

 

 

 

 

So Basically its what I've been saying-pricing and the economy. 

hold it...if 48 percent said the prices were too high...that means 52% were fine with it....lol...

[Deanh]

11 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Speaking of pricing 

 

GLOBAL EV SHOPPERS CITE PRICING AS BARRIER TO PURCHASE

 

 

 

 

So Basically its what I've been saying-pricing and the economy. 

no...so riddle me this...the why are they STILL buying ICE at similar pricing ? .....

[silvrsvt]

8 minutes ago, Deanh said:

no...so riddle me this...the why are they STILL buying ICE at similar pricing ? .....

 

So are you doing this as an apples to apples comparison or are you just talking price point?

 

How many say 80K+ F-150s are sold a month vs Lightnings?

Or how many Escape vs Mach Es? Mach E has a much higher starting price then an Escape does. They are similar in size/options otherwise.  

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

It absolutely does, and it’s hard to imagine how you don’t see the connection.  It is not directly at design level because average buyer is not technical enough to understand the difference.  Average buyer can only relate to end product (result) and its cost, performance, economy, etc.

 

Companies like Tesla and pretty much every manufacturer designing and manufacturing  EVs are doing everything in their power to increase vehicle energy efficiency as one of the best ways to reduce costs and make BEV ownership more desirable.  Are you denying this?  

 

Your reply above goes right back to only cost, and that’s not the entire picture.  The Silverado has much longer highway range than Hummer because it’s more efficient.  Period.  Whether a rich buyer cares about extra $5 to charge is not the point at all.  However, if it can travel another 50 miles in real driving, that’s a big deal.

Both are over 350 miles of range.  If I charge overnight and drive locally, range is irrelevant.  If I take road trips less than 350 miles per day range is irrelevant.  The worst possible case is someone driving 10-12 hours per day in which case they’d have to stop and recharge once in either vehicle.  So what’s the difference in charging?  30 minutes?  How is that any different than someone driving a F-350 superduty diesel vs a 2.7L ecoboost F150?  Does the superduty driver care that the F150 gets significantly better fuel economy?  No.  If they did they would have bought the F150.

 

 

[akirby]

18 minutes ago, Deanh said:

no...so riddle me this...the why are they STILL buying ICE at similar pricing ? .....

Because EVs are not “I need” purchases - most are 2nd or 3rd vehicles or toys.  When price goes from $40k to $60k a lot of buyers walk away.  

[rmc523]

22 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Tesla design in the sense of prioritizing areo targets over aesthetic appeal. 

 

I get that, zig where others zag is the guiding principle to my own approach to product design. My mentality is the world only looks at you if you give them a reason to, if you're a startup, and you just copy the f-150, then everyone is just going to buy an f-150. 

 

I'm working on a small sporty truck for my portfolio, early on, I decided to wanted to shorten the hood and lengthen the bed, while also lowering the nose. Trying to applying those ideas to something with the typical blocky truck styling cues just looked off. So I decided to try something radically different. I said to myself, in theory, this would be an EV, you can make an EV truck perform really well, but what if you also made it look the part? You're already giving this truck the cab forward proportions of a mid-engine car, so instead of pulling styling cues from a typical truck, make it look like a lifted mid engine sports car instead. It worked, version 1 and 2 of the design were a little rough, I'd say I'm on version 3.5 now, and it's showing some promise. 

 

It still needs some tweaks, but it's something very different. The overall profile looks vaguely like the lancia rally cars from the 80s, and there's an areo pass through in the hood like the EV charger concept. It's a small, practical truck that goes and looks like a sports car. It wouldn't appeal to everyone, but it would definitely appeal to people who want the practicality of a truck, in a more exciting package. So I definitely understand the appeal of doing things differently, but there's a good different, and a bad different. 

 

12 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Here you go my friend. I have to preface that this was rendered feeding a 3D into an AI program, so it did some weird things. The surfacing and detailing is pretty off compared to the actual model, but the overall shape and proportions are pretty close to the real thing. Basically imagine this shape with a more sculpted and vented hood, sportier front graphics, and less cuts down the body side. It's a quirky design, would definitely polarized people if it was an actual truck, but it's had some fans thus far due to how different it is. 

 

Interesting design, though I'm having difficulty seeing how that's a truck - I don't see room for a bed back there with how the pillars seem to taper in.

 

It sounds like you're actually considering how your vehicle looks, though, not just taking a ruler and drawing a few lines like Tesla did with the Cybertruck.

[Deanh]

7 minutes ago, akirby said:

Because EVs are not “I need” purchases - most are 2nd or 3rd vehicles or toys.  When price goes from $40k to $60k a lot of buyers walk away.  

and yet the Bolt/ Volt and lower priced EVs arent exactly setting the world on fire, the EV market seems to be going through a period of staganation ( although part of the cheapys not moving may be vanity based  ).... theres the reality check right there....funny how many times Ive been questioned for stating the gleam had worn off , sales were tanking, vehicles were sitting , demand was waning, that people had woken up,  and criticizing Ford for going all in ...theres a lot more to the current lack of popularity of EVs than just price, they are most definitely NOT the holy grail, and the transition ( if ultimately it does happen )  should have been adressed in a far more gradual manner. Irony is an EV would be perfect for my current status as a too and from work vehicle, BUT Im not willing to fork out the $, additional in surance and the necessary housepanel upgrade for, as you put...a "toy"...Ford has commited, IMO maybe a bit too much, they cant back out now, so they pretty much HAVE to make it work, this is going to be facinating because thats a huge unpredictable hurdle......

[akirby]

14 minutes ago, Deanh said:

and yet the Bolt/ Volt and lower priced EVs arent exactly setting the world on fire, the EV market seems to be going through a period of staganation ( although part of the cheapys not moving may be vanity based  ).... theres the reality check right there....funny how many times Ive been questioned for stating the gleam had worn off , sales were tanking, vehicles were sitting , demand was waning, that people had woken up,  and criticizing Ford for going all in ...theres a lot more to the current lack of popularity of EVs than just price, they are most definitely NOT the holy grail, and the transition ( if ultimately it does happen )  should have been adressed in a far more gradual manner. Irony is an EV would be perfect for my current status as a too and from work vehicle, BUT Im not willing to fork out the $, additional in surance and the necessary housepanel upgrade for, as you put...a "toy"...Ford has commited, IMO maybe a bit too much, they cant back out now, so they pretty much HAVE to make it work, this is going to be facinating because thats a huge unpredictable hurdle......

You and Joe should go start your own “EVs suck and nobody wants them” forum.  Geez…..

[Deanh]

29 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

So are you doing this as an apples to apples comparison or are you just talking price point?

 

How many say 80K+ F-150s are sold a month vs Lightnings?

Or how many Escape vs Mach Es? Mach E has a much higher starting price then an Escape does. They are similar in size/options otherwise.  

we have 64 k lightnings, the higher priced ones have been here going on 6 months ( granted not helped by a couple of recalls ) ....they arent moving very quickly either, the $$$ ones just wait to get washed once a week....ICE F150s in that price frame and above are moving fine, Lightnings are less than 10% of total F150sales , at least here, and remember, So Cal is most likely one of the top movers of EVs ....Escape Hybrids can now get to 47k plus no problem...thats Mach E territory...guess which unit has more interest, then again they show up only once in a blue moon, we have quite the Mach E selection right now, cant wait for the RallyE... 

[Deanh]

8 minutes ago, akirby said:

You and Joe should go start your own “EVs suck and nobody wants them” forum.  Geez…..

They dont suck, they just arent ready for prime time as you and silvrsvt believe they are, you guys dont deal with it on a day to day basis and refuse to acknowledge all the articles and staements , even from FOMOCo that back up how the EV market is struggling...sorry, but between the two of you couch coaches you pretty much dismiss others opinions when they dont co-incide with your own....

[silvrsvt]

18 minutes ago, Deanh said:

They dont suck, they just arent ready for prime time as you and silvrsvt believe they are, you guys dont deal with it on a day to day basis and refuse to acknowledge all the articles and staements , even from FOMOCo that back up how the EV market is struggling...sorry, but between the two of you couch coaches you pretty much dismiss others opinions when they dont co-incide with your own....

 

So this is the problem-there are other factors at play here that your not letting your biases see past-interest rates are high, the economy seems like its cooling with a recession on the horizon. I personally think your smoking something if you don't see the writing on the wall with car sales in the next few months. EV then luxury products then cheaper products are going to start sales struggling between now and next summer if something doesn't change. 

 

Doing a knee jerk response and killing off EV development at this point is fucking stupid, which seems to be what your suggesting. 

 

The next few years will be rough, but given that BOC won't be up and running till 18 months or so from now, and product won't be coming out till late 2025 or early 2026, we don't know how this will all be playing out. 

 

You'll just have the Mach E and Lightning to worry about for next 14 months or so and then maybe you'll have to worry about the 7 seater that is coming...short term...but we are still at least 3-5 years before a major shift in product. 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by silvrsvt

[akirby]

16 minutes ago, Deanh said:

They dont suck, they just arent ready for prime time as you and silvrsvt believe they are, you guys dont deal with it on a day to day basis and refuse to acknowledge all the articles and staements , even from FOMOCo that back up how the EV market is struggling...sorry, but between the two of you couch coaches you pretty much dismiss others opinions when they dont co-incide with your own....

With all due respect, your viewpoint is from one dealership and you’re ignoring the effect of price increases and inflation on what is almost always a discretionary expense.

 

If nobody wanted them there wouldn’t have been so many orders.  Tesla sales are still very good.  When you said you weren’t selling any EVs Ford sold thousands elsewhere.  Somebody is still buying them.  

 

This has nothing to do with our opinions and everything to do with facts.  Sales have slowed but not stopped.  What happens to sales when Ford adds a $5K rebate?  The opposite is true when they raise prices $5k- $20K or more almost overnight.

[rmc523]

The endless back and forth on the same subject in all threads is exciting!  lol.

[Deanh]

8 minutes ago, akirby said:

With all due respect, your viewpoint is from one dealership and you’re ignoring the effect of price increases and inflation on what is almost always a discretionary expense.

 

If nobody wanted them there wouldn’t have been so many orders.  Tesla sales are still very good.  When you said you weren’t selling any EVs Ford sold thousands elsewhere.  Somebody is still buying them.  

 

This has nothing to do with our opinions and everything to do with facts.  Sales have slowed but not stopped.  What happens to sales when Ford adds a $5K rebate?  The opposite is true when they raise prices $5k- $20K or more almost overnight.

Maybe I was tad harsh, but jesus guys..we are NOT the only dealership that has a multitude of rows of Mach E's and Lightnings ( again Transits are left out of the conversation )...As for pricing, we have 45k Mach E;s WITH 1.9 financing thats NOT a price increase...thats an incentivised "carrot" drop. And now Dealers are being leveraged to take additional EV inventory on top of what they have in stock with HALO vehicles they CAN actually make a profit on , and more importantly MOVE ...Im just not as convinced as you guys its BEV's time, but thats through personal experience, Im not sure if you guys are or are not in the industry, but based on your perspectives Id guess you are more outside observers. And for all the talk of pricing etc, thats not it...its NOT just Ford thats hit a wall...EV inventories have increased by 506% from a year ago, with EVs sitting on lots for longer, according to CarGurus’ October report, released this month. EVs sit on the market an average 82 days versus 64 days for gas-powered vehicles, it said. In response to slowing demand, automakers like Ford and GM are cutting production.......that statement ISNT a bias, its a reality....and not a very good sign for the future.... 

[Deanh]

8 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

The endless back and forth on the same subject in all threads is exciting!  lol.

meeting of stubborn minds that seem to TOTALLY dis-agree....lol...apologies....next few months I believe are going to be a sales nightmare...and I dont believe that peratins just to EVs....

[silvrsvt]

20 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

The endless back and forth on the same subject in all threads is exciting!  lol.

 

next EV thread I post I'm putting a disclaimer that you need to find a new talking point or it gets locked!