What happened to EVs? The sudden slowdown in electric car sales is a symptom of a much uglier problem

[Rick73]

Since lithium batteries can’t be charged below freezing (generally around 0 C or 32 F), but can supply power to drive vehicle to much lower temperatures, it is interesting to note that BEVs can’t use regenerative braking when battery is very cold, but still warm enough to drive.

 

I was reminded of this after a family member’s Tesla was recently left parked outside for days in 20 F weather, and when he got back in town and went to drive home, a warning message to use brakes came on.  Drivers can get used to one-pedal driving, which may not function in winter if battery is too cold to receive much if any charge from regenerative braking.  This probably contributes to reduced driving efficiency/range somewhat in cold weather, until battery warms up anyway.

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

I expect part of what drives subsidies is that most of their electricity comes from hydropower, and they use electricity for pretty much everything.  Also doesn’t hurt they have a fairly high standard of living.

 

Norway also has a very high tax level between 40%-45% of GDP.  The U.S. tax level is about 28% of GDP..  

[tbone]

5 hours ago, mackinaw said:

 

One reason EV's sell so well in Norway is because of their aggressive EV subsidies:

 

The Norwegian EV incentives:

• No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25% VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over
• No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021. Full tax from 2022.
• No charges on toll roads (1997- 2017).
• No charges on ferries (2009- 2017).
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018)
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2018-2022). From 2023 70%
• Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
• Access to bus lanes (2005-). New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016-)
• 25% reduced company car tax (2000-2008). 50% reduced company car tax (2009-2017). Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-2021) and 20 percent from 2022.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015-)
• The Norwegian Parliament decided on a national goal that all new cars sold by 2025 should be zero-emission (electric or hydrogen) (2017).
• «Charging right» for people living in apartment buildings was established (2017-)
• Public procurement: From 2022 cars needs to be ZEV. From 2025 the same applies to city buses

 

 

Wow, the tax payer carried a lot of burden on their programs.  That’s awful.  

[akirby]

7 hours ago, tbone said:

Wow, the tax payer carried a lot of burden on their programs.  That’s awful.  

But they like it.  Very different culture.  They also don’t have to pay for a huge national defense force.

[Captainp4]

The charging for people living in apartments would probably be a big help here - usually not in favor of too much .gov intervention, but that one seems like it's going to take a very long time for older buildings to get updated - I imagine newer complexes would have this in mind already, but haven't heard anything either way. Some of the nicer places around here have garages you can also rent now. Not sure how that works - if it's an as needed thing or comes with the apartment .. or if they're equipped for 240 charging.

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:

The charging for people living in apartments would probably be a big help here - usually not in favor of too much .gov intervention, but that one seems like it's going to take a very long time for older buildings to get updated - I imagine newer complexes would have this in mind already, but haven't heard anything either way. Some of the nicer places around here have garages you can also rent now. Not sure how that works - if it's an as needed thing or comes with the apartment .. or if they're equipped for 240 charging.

 

Newer complexes here are including some chargers, but not one for each unit like would be necessary.

[jpd80]

15 hours ago, tbone said:

Wow, the tax payer carried a lot of burden on their programs.  That’s awful.  

The citizens are amongst the happiest in the world because their government actually does things for them.

 

 

Edited January 19 by jpd80

[tbone]

On 1/18/2024 at 2:48 PM, akirby said:

Anybody who owns an EV in the cold North without a home charger or alternate vehicle is crazy.  

Well I don’t own it but it does suck to not be able to charge at home.  That’s how I have to handle my work MME, and it’s not an ideal situation in cold climates.   How I have to handle the vehicle is basically how someone would have to handle theirs if they were living in a multi-unit building without available charging.  Charging becomes a tiresome task and has required more frequent charging if you drive any distance of significance in this cold weather.  After a recent full charge when the temp was -4, the range was reduced to 109 miles, less than half of its max range of 270 miles.    
 

I also have a problem with the cabin not sufficiently heating to what I would call a comfortable level for shorter trips.    The footwell specifically is a particular problem, which seems to be compounded by a cool breeze originating from somewhere under the drivers seat.  That is something I’m going to have to discuss with the dealer, but I haven’t observed any obvious issues under there.  
 

I will say that it has handled the snow and ice pretty well from the driving perspective, so that’s nice. 

[tbone]

9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The citizens are amongst the happiest in the world because their government actually does things for them.

 

 

Are you suggesting our government needs to do more for us outside of obvious public necessities such as roads, public safety, national defense, etc?

[tbone]

18 hours ago, akirby said:

But they like it.  Very different culture.  They also don’t have to pay for a huge national defense force.

Good for them.  It’s not for me. 

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, tbone said:

Are you suggesting our government needs to do more for us outside of obvious public necessities such as roads, public safety, national defense, etc?

No, other governments do all that shit too and then some, you guys just have different priorities on where money gets spent…

[Joe771476]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:44 AM, rmc523 said:

Public transportation isn't a realistic option unless you're in a big city, and even then, that depends on the city.

What percentage of the public do these bureaucrats want to use mass transit? 20%? 50%? At some point the auto industry will take a huge hit and the economy will come to a screeching halt!  Let's wake up!

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, Joe771476 said:

What percentage of the public do these bureaucrats want to use mass transit? 20%? 50%? At some point the auto industry will take a huge hit and the economy will come to a screeching halt!  Let's wake up!

Can you take the tinfoil hat off? 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Can you take the tinfoil hat off? 

It’s permanently attached

[2005Explorer]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla-gm-and-ford-price-cuts-suggest-that-electric-cars-may-be-at-a-dead-end-1091aa16

 

Everyone said Toyota was making the wrong decision prioritizing high mileage hybrids over BEV. At least at this stage and for the foreseeable future Toyota might have made the right choice instead of being drawn in by "shiny objects."

 

https://fortune.com/asia/2024/01/24/toyota-chairman-akio-toyoda-ev-skepticism-thirty-percent-battery-electric-cars/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17061852701795&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Ffortune.com%2Fasia%2F2024%2F01%2F24%2Ftoyota-chairman-akio-toyoda-ev-skepticism-thirty-percent-battery-electric-cars%2F

Edited January 26 by 2005Explorer