REPORT: Ford Edge Production Continuation Wasn't Possible

[silvrsvt]

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

I think they should've kept the Rivian Lincoln product to gauge reaction and to give them an EV product until their in-house stuff was ready.

 

I'm not sure that would have been a wise idea, given how Rivian has performed. Not sure a Lincoln version of the current products they offer would have really moved the needle for Lincoln. 

[Oac98]

8 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

I recently bought the 2024 Nautilus and follow issues related to the vehicle on a couple of Facebook sites. One thing I've noticed is that there seems to be three distinct groups buying the new Nautilus: (1) previous generation Nautilus owners (like me) -- and sometimes past Aviator owners or people who went into the Lincoln dealership thinking they wanted to buy an Aviator but didn't really need that third seat or towing capacity and found they liked the Nautilus better, (2) a variety of former Lexus/BMW/MB/Genesis owners, and (3) former Edge owners, especially Edge ST owners. Most of them are generally happy with their purchase and compare the Nautilus favorably to their previous vehicle. One common complaint among the Edge ST owners, however, is the lower off-the-line torque -- but only off-the-line -- with the 2.0 hybrid than with their previous 2.7, though they still like and prefer the new Nautilus overall. The odd thing is that you don't find former Nautilus 2.7 owners saying the same thing as much. I think it is because former Nautilus owners are established Lincoln buyers and understand the whole point of Lincolns is the quality of the drive and the luxury of the car, not its 0-60 number. Whereas Edge ST buyers often bought that ST specifically because from time to time they really liked to punch that accelerator from a standing stop.

 

That said, while I think the new Nautilus is a great vehicle and wish its production had stayed in North America, it really isn't a full replacement for the Edge. While the lowest trim 2024 Nautilus gives you great value in a luxury mid-sized crossover, it still goes for a lot more than an Edge.

The new Nautilus looks sharp, I hope  you enjoy it and it holds up for years. 

[jpd80]

15 hours ago, akirby said:

I agree with that.  But I think we’re underestimating the impact of the changes from the skunkworks team.  I think they are fundamentally changing the way Ford designs and builds EVs which will either give them a big cost advantage or at worst keep them on par with other industry leaders.  You don’t need 100 people working for 2 years in secret just to redesign a couple of vehicles.  It’s far more fundamental in my opinion especially considering the team members.

And that’s exactly my point, Ford took off with large design teams developing their key vehicles but, the efficiencies from the skunkworks aren’t just this type of battery or that control system…Ford compared what was done between the developments and discovered that much of the efficiency gains comes from not doing the conventional development way that Ford did…they need someone to think outside of the box and show them where all the unnecessary, redundant steps are in the process and look at new way to do everything…..especially cutting the  time to make vehicles. An ex Tesla engineering manager is the perfect person to show them how it’s done.

Edited April 12 by jpd80

[akirby]

5 hours ago, jpd80 said:

And that’s exactly my point, Ford took off with large design teams developing their key vehicles but, the efficiencies from the skunkworks aren’t just this type of battery or that control system…Ford compared what was done between the developments and discovered that much of the efficiency gains comes from not doing the conventional development way that Ford did…they need someone to think outside of the box and show them where all the unnecessary, redundant steps are in the process and look at new way to do everything…..especially cutting the  time to make vehicles. An ex Tesla engineering manager is the perfect person to show them how it’s done.

Again we agree just using different words.

 

I think they did some process reengineering 2 yrs ago based on what they knew at the time and what they learned from Mach-e and Lightning but Farley thought there was more to be done including low cost EVs.  So he formed the skunkworks team.  But you can’t just sit back and wait 2 years to see IF they find something new that would apply to other programs.   
 

There is risk in waiting for new processes and there is risk to moving ahead in parallel.  If it only cost them 1 year on T3 then moving ahead was better than waiting 2 years to start.

 

We all know Oakville was the wrong products in the wrong plant at the wrong time.  Period.

[jpd80]

43 minutes ago, akirby said:

Again we agree just using different words.

 

I think they did some process reengineering 2 yrs ago based on what they knew at the time and what they learned from Mach-e and Lightning but Farley thought there was more to be done including low cost EVs.  So he formed the skunkworks team.  But you can’t just sit back and wait 2 years to see IF they find something new that would apply to other programs.   
 

There is risk in waiting for new processes and there is risk to moving ahead in parallel.  If it only cost them 1 year on T3 then moving ahead was better than waiting 2 years to start.

 

We all know Oakville was the wrong products in the wrong plant at the wrong time.  Period.

Yes and to reinforce your point, BEV Silverado seems to be having issues with those Ultium gel packs, am I wrong in thinking GM took a short cut with this technology that now seems to be biting them in the rear…

[AM222]

On 4/11/2024 at 10:44 PM, akirby said:

Thats always been a problem with Ford.  Not enough resources to do everything and no appetite for building new plants or hiring more people.  They just seem to make do with what they have to keep costs down and end up making a lot of product compromises.

To put it nicely, Ford in the past couple of years hasn't been run/ managed that well. 

Every time Ford called a segment dead or referred to models in a segment as just "commodity products", it usually meant, our competitors beat us, we quit.

First to go are the cars, next in line are their 2-row SUV counterparts. 



 

Edited April 15 by AM222

[akirby]

5 hours ago, AM222 said:

Every time Ford called a segment dead or referred to models in a segment as just "commodity products", it usually meant, our competitors beat us, we quit.

First to go are the cars, next in line are their 2-row SUV counterparts. 

Fusion was #3 behind Accord and Camry and selling close to 300K.  Hermosillo was near capacity.  There were 8 competitors at one time and at least 3 of those (Kia, Hyundai and Nissan) were cutting prices to gain sales.  There was nothing to distinguish one from any other and outside of brand loyalists it was all about price.  Ford thought they could sell $30k Titaniums but buyers wanted $25k SEs with a $4K rebate.  That is the definition of commodity when the o ly way to get volume is to out cheap the competition.

 

Nobody beat Taurus or Continental.  The market just went away.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Sounds like the current market for 2 row SUVs, and no reason the same competitors and more can't move the price war to 3 row SUVs and even full size pickups. Ford and GM need to quit running to fortress market sectors and compete.

[AM222]

59 minutes ago, akirby said:

Fusion was #3 behind Accord and Camry and selling close to 300K.  Hermosillo was near capacity.  There were 8 competitors at one time and at least 3 of those (Kia, Hyundai and Nissan) were cutting prices to gain sales.  There was nothing to distinguish one from any other and outside of brand loyalists it was all about price.  Ford thought they could sell $30k Titaniums but buyers wanted $25k SEs with a $4K rebate.  That is the definition of commodity when the o ly way to get volume is to out cheap the competition.

 

Nobody beat Taurus or Continental.  The market just went away.

There's no rule that affordable volume models should be boring "commodity" models. 
Ford used to make sharp desirable mainstream models. There are really no excuses to why the competition still makes the vehicle types Ford abandoned and at the same time remain healthy without the need for drastic sacrifices.

I know small models are just secondary in the US but these are mainstream volume models in Europe, Asia, and other international markets. Ford's competitors know this, that's why they don't just kill off models. The development cost is spread to every vehicle sold around the world.

About the Continental (Ford sold this in very limited number of markets unlike its competitors), there are many big luxury sedans out there and most are RWD-based. This includes Hyundai's full-size G90. Even if you dislike the car, it exists in 2024 and the Continental didn't make it past 2020. 


Ford's real problem (at least in North America) is quality control. Despite its shrinking lineup, it's still the king of recalls, 3 Years in a row (2021, 2022, 2023), and there have been recalls this year. 
 

Edited April 15 by AM222

[AM222]

35 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Sounds like the current market for 2 row SUVs, and no reason the same competitors and more can't move the price war to 3 row SUVs and even full size pickups. Ford and GM need to quit running to fortress market sectors and compete.

For Q1 2024, behind the Ford F-Series (1st) and Chevy Silverado (2nd) are the following models: the Toyota Rav4 (3rd), Tesla Model Y (4th), and Honda CR-V (5th). 

Apparently after big trucks, compact/small SUVs are the next popular models in the US. 

Edited April 15 by AM222

[Andrew L]

2 hours ago, AM222 said:

There's no rule that affordable volume models should be boring "commodity" models. 
Ford used to make sharp desirable mainstream models. There are really no excuses to why the competition still makes the vehicle types Ford abandoned and at the same time remain healthy without the need for drastic sacrifices.

I know small models are just secondary in the US but these are mainstream volume models in Europe, Asia, and other international markets. Ford's competitors know this, that's why they don't just kill off models. The development cost is spread to every vehicle sold around the world.

About the Continental (Ford sold this in very limited number of markets unlike its competitors), there are many big luxury sedans out there and most are RWD-based. This includes Hyundai's full-size G90. Even if you dislike the car, it exists in 2024 and the Continental didn't make it past 2020. 


Ford's real problem (at least in North America) is quality control. Despite its shrinking lineup, it's still the king of recalls, 3 Years in a row (2021, 2022, 2023), and there have been recalls this year. 
 

 

I agree with you 100%.  I've been saying Lincoln without any kind of sedan seems sacrilegious, but those statements are pretty unpopular on this forum.  I still think they could pull it off with a C2 based Fusion and Zephyr since they are being sold in other countries but apparently that's not possible.  Quality Control and boneheaded moves with engineering seem to have hurt Ford long term.  I've posted about the FWD 3.7 internal water pump and my friend's 2.0 MKZ that needs a whole new engine at 69k miles.  Stuff like that shouldn't be happening period anymore.  Modern cars should be able to hit 200k miles with just basic maintenance.  The fact that both those engines may need a teardown or replacement before 100k is absurd.  

 

Ford seems to have issues with transmissions too which is a story old as time.  The DCT issue with the Focus and Fiesta come to mind but I have heard a lot of issues with the 10 speed as well.  

 

They need to get their heads out of their rear and start putting a serious effort into quality control.  

 

I am still a fan of Ford/Lincoln but all these issues that have popped up and what my friend have been through has shaken my confidence in Ford/Lincoln.  The cars I have owned from the brands have all be solid and never left me stranded but I would be hesitant to purchase anything from them recently unless it's an F150.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, AM222 said:

There's no rule that affordable volume models should be boring "commodity" models. 
Ford used to make sharp desirable mainstream models. There are really no excuses to why the competition still makes the vehicle types Ford abandoned and at the same time remain healthy without the need for drastic sacrifices.

I know small models are just secondary in the US but these are mainstream volume models in Europe, Asia, and other international markets. Ford's competitors know this, that's why they don't just kill off models. The development cost is spread to every vehicle sold around the world.

About the Continental (Ford sold this in very limited number of markets unlike its competitors), there are many big luxury sedans out there and most are RWD-based. This includes Hyundai's full-size G90. Even if you dislike the car, it exists in 2024 and the Continental didn't make it past 2020. 


Ford's real problem (at least in North America) is quality control. Despite its shrinking lineup, it's still the king of recalls, 3 Years in a row (2021, 2022, 2023), and there have been recalls this year. 
 

Sales of large luxury sedans declined significantly as well.  Has nothing to do with drivetrain.  Simple market shift over the last 3 decades.

 

And while a few people would pay a premium for a great midsized family sedan, the vast majority of sales is still people looking for a cheap appliance to get them from a to b.  That’s the market whether you like it or not.

 

As for why Ford doesn’t sell certain vehicles but competitors do, answer this question.

 

Why don’t Kia, Hyundai, Volkswagen, Honda, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, Porsche, Land Rover, Volvo or Mitsubishi sell full sized body on frame pickups or SUVs?  Thats a 3M+ market they’re just ignoring.  Toyota and Nissan tried with minimal results.

[AM222]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Why don’t Kia, Hyundai, Volkswagen, Honda, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, Porsche, Land Rover, Volvo or Mitsubishi sell full sized body on frame pickups or SUVs?  Thats a 3M+ market they’re just ignoring.  Toyota and Nissan tried with minimal results.

The full-size truck is mainly an American thing. Most non-American car companies think global. They'd rather invest in scalable global platforms. Kia will launch a mid-size pickup, they can sell this anywhere unlike full-size pickup trucks. 

 

The 2-row compact SUV is a segment common around the world and Ford wants to discontinue the Escape/Kuga. 

 

Ford relies heavily on models they can't market outdide North America as mainstream models. The F-Series is too big, the Mustang ends up being a premium model, the Bronco also ends up being a premium model limited to select left-hand drive markets. The Mach e is also premium (expensive outside the US) and is sold in very limited number of markets.

 

Edited April 15 by AM222

[Andrew L]

I am pretty sure I remember an article from MotorTrend or one of the car mags way back in the day that MB and BMW were considering a luxury pickup as well but when they saw how much of a disaster the Lincoln and Cadillac pickups were they cancelled them.  I don't foresee any luxury brand offering a large pickup ever.

[silvrsvt]

40 minutes ago, AM222 said:

Ford relies heavily on models they can't market outdide North America as mainstream models. The F-Series is too big, the Mustang ends up being a premium model, the Bronco also ends up being a premium model limited to select left-hand drive markets. The Mach e is also premium (expensive outside the US) and is sold in very limited number of markets.

 

The Mach E is roughly the same price in the UK and the EU as it is in NA market. The new Explorer EV starting price is even more. 

 

Ford is a NA centric manufacture. 

 

BMW and Mercedes would get taken down a notch or two in the cache dept once people realized that the stripper models are used as Taxis in Germany and other countries. 

[AM222]

40 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Ford is a NA centric manufacture. 

Pretty much, unlike its non-American competitors which are global (not just focused on their home market).

 

A lot rests on the shoulders of the Australian-developed T6, it's what's keeping Ford alive in Asia-Pacific, South Africa, South America etc. 

 

 

Edited April 15 by AM222

[akirby]

3 hours ago, AM222 said:

The full-size truck is mainly an American thing. Most non-American car companies think global. They'd rather invest in scalable global platforms. Kia will launch a mid-size pickup, they can sell this anywhere unlike full-size pickup trucks. 

 

The 2-row compact SUV is a segment common around the world and Ford wants to discontinue the Escape/Kuga. 

 

Ford relies heavily on models they can't market outdide North America as mainstream models. The F-Series is too big, the Mustang ends up being a premium model, the Bronco also ends up being a premium model limited to select left-hand drive markets. The Mach e is also premium (expensive outside the US) and is sold in very limited number of markets.

 

Completely missed the point.  Kia would kill to be able to sell 900k vehicles at the kinds of margins that Ford gets with F series.  But they can’t because they don’t have the experience or expertise nor are they willing to make the huge investment required.

 

A company has to play to its strengths and what works for one doesn’t work for another.  Companies that aren’t US based evolved differently.  And companies have to prioritize their resources.  
 

They cancelled Continental, Taurus, Fusion, MKZ, Focus, Fiesta and Ecosport.  But they added Ranger, Bronco, Maverick, Bronco Sport, Aviator, Mach-e, E-transit and Lightning.  And they’re working on at least 4 more new vehicles.   Escape isn’t going anywhere now and I think Edge will be back.

 

It’s a zero sum game unless you’re willing to build new plants and hire more people.  

[akirby]

3 hours ago, Andrew L said:

I am pretty sure I remember an article from MotorTrend or one of the car mags way back in the day that MB and BMW were considering a luxury pickup as well but when they saw how much of a disaster the Lincoln and Cadillac pickups were they cancelled them.  I don't foresee any luxury brand offering a large pickup ever.

Which further illustrates my point.  Each mfr has its niches of what they do well and that’s where they focus their resources.  For BMW its performance cars and small to midsize SUvs.  Kia is the same but mainstream.  For Ford its trucks and SUVs.

[AM222]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Completely missed the point.  Kia would kill to be able to sell 900k vehicles at the kinds of margins that Ford gets with F series.  

Only Ford executives/employees care about this really, not actual consumers. This doesn't mean much in global markets outside North America that don't get the F150. Ford needs more models in its global showrooms after it killed off its small models. Yes, these are important in global markets and yes its competitors have a widw range of models in global markets.

 

Edited April 15 by AM222

[joseodiaga4]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Which further illustrates my point.  Each mfr has its niches of what they do well and that’s where they focus their resources.  For BMW its performance cars and small to midsize SUvs.  Kia is the same but mainstream.  For Ford its trucks and SUVs.

Agree but in that case why is Ford so behind for example GM in the full size SUV segment? It seems that Ford only can focus in one thing or max two at the same

time.

[Andrew L]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

Which further illustrates my point.  Each mfr has its niches of what they do well and that’s where they focus their resources.  For BMW its performance cars and small to midsize SUvs.  Kia is the same but mainstream.  For Ford its trucks and SUVs.

 

Eh not really luxury branded pickups is not really a segment.  It was tried and it failed.  There's a reason why BMW and MB don't make full size pickups because no other luxury brand makes them.  I still see people in Lincoln groups saying Lincoln should bring back the Blackwood or Mark LT and in all honesty they shouldn't it would be a loser right out the gate.  No one wants a luxury branded pickup. 

 

Ford was known for their cars too along side their trucks.  Taurus was a huge seller in the 80s and 90s.  Hell even when sales slipped in the early 2000s if you combined the Taurus and Sable sales I believe it sold more than the Camry. 

 

To add to this Ford really needs something more value oriented and needs to stop propping up the Ford brand as if it's a premium brand.  Maverick is the only vehicle they sell that starts under 25k.

Edited April 15 by Andrew L

[akirby]

23 minutes ago, AM222 said:

Only Ford executives/employees care about this really, not actual consumers. This doesn't mean much in global markets outside North America that don't get the F150. 

 

Not just executives but also employees and shareholders.  And when you say things like Ford needs to or Ford should do something then that implies a business decision and I’m trying to explain why Ford is making these business decisions.

 

You seem to only care about the consumer view and that’s fine as a consumer.  But don’t try to rationalize the business decision based on that.

[akirby]

26 minutes ago, joseodiaga4 said:

Agree but in that case why is Ford so behind for example GM in the full size SUV segment? It seems that Ford only can focus in one thing or max two at the same

time.

Suburban had a long history before Expedition and Excursion.  Plus GM brand loyalty.  Hard to dethrone the market leader even with great products.

[Deanh]

3 minutes ago, akirby said:

Suburban had a long history before Expedition and Excursion.  Plus GM brand loyalty.  Hard to dethrone the market leader even with great products.

Ill never forget the backlash from Enviromentalists regarding the Excursions "size"...somehow the Suburban got a hall pass.....

[Andrew L]

4 minutes ago, Deanh said:

Ill never forget the backlash from Enviromentalists regarding the Excursions "size"...somehow the Suburban got a hall pass.....

 

Well Excursion was bigger than the Suburban but the Hummer definitely got it as well on the GM side for sure.  Excursion has a serious cult following now.