NickF1011 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Well, nick, I'd suggest checking Edmund's. The 2007 Five Hundred is neck and neck in reviews with the Avalon, and the Montego is actually ranked above it. I believe the 300, Impala, and others are rated below them. The only important reviews are done by those opening their pocket books. In that regard, the D3's have lost every comparison test that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Ahhh. I guess our trade-off for having cheaper gas is hot, muggy weather and hurricanes. Hey I like my hot, muggy weather and hurricanes just fine..... .....and all the Spring Breakers that come with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 curveball.....how is it that BMW has gotten away with using a 3 litre for as long as it has...that said its performance figures are ALWAYS right there with the competitions BIGGER displacement MORE horsepower versions....why can't Ford do the same...an engine doesn't have to be made bigger to be better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey I like my hot, muggy weather and hurricanes just fine..... .....and all the Spring Breakers that come with it. Unfortunately, we don't get the spring breakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The only important reviews are done by those opening their pocket books. In that regard, the D3's have lost every comparison test that matters. Well, as the people doing the surveys at Edmund's are car owners...thanks for agreeing with me! Enjoy your crow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Well, as the people doing the surveys at Edmund's are car owners...thanks for agreeing with me! Enjoy your crow. surveys smurveys...A recent survey stated that over consumption of Fast Foods such as McDonalds may be linked to Obesity..................it was in consumer Reports as the most blatantly inaccurate survey sponsored by Captain Obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The only important reviews are done by those opening their pocket books. In that regard, the D3's have lost every comparison test that matters. First year retail sales under $30k were decidedly 'won' by the Five Hundred. The Impala and LX sold more but at a higher fleet mix in V6 form, the Avalon sold about the same, but at a much ($3-5k on average) higher price point. Why draw the line at $30k? Because there's not much Five Hundred available beyond that point, and because in the real world people do have an upper price limit, regardless of how much car they really want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGallun Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) !. The Fusion is slow. 2 The competition has bigger engines, which make more power, AND still get better fuel mileage. Ford can start selling cars at Wal-Mart if you'd like? It would certainly fit in with the image their cars have thanks to the "cheaper, mediocre is ok" mindset of Fords decision makers... my fusion outruns or keeps up with accord auto v6, sontata v6, malibu SS(actually smoked it) G6 v6 my friends camry v6 got me by about half a car up to 80.. these are real world numbers.. not magazine or just feel from drving it for a few seconds.. fusion weighs less than most of its competetors, so even if they got my hp numbers, they in reality arent much or even faster.. only car in our class with a NA v6 that waxed me is a altima... Edited March 20, 2007 by MGallun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 "Hey I like my hot, muggy weather and hurricanes just fine..... .....and all the Spring Breakers that come with it." I enjoy our hurricanes as well, they are a very positive thing for the community. It helps renovate/remodel certain run-down neighborhoods, brings in new money, new roofs, paint-jobs all around, other than a few days of no electricity, there's nothing really bad about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 curveball.....how is it that BMW has gotten away with using a 3 litre for as long as it has...that said its performance figures are ALWAYS right there with the competitions BIGGER displacement MORE horsepower versions....why can't Ford do the same...an engine doesn't have to be made bigger to be better.... Even BMW is changing its game now. While still 3 liters, they are now offering it with twin turbos in the 335i. Then there is the upcoming V8 M3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 (edited) First year retail sales under $30k were decidedly 'won' by the Five Hundred. The Impala and LX sold more but at a higher fleet mix in V6 form, the Avalon sold about the same, but at a much ($3-5k on average) higher price point. Why draw the line at $30k? Because there's not much Five Hundred available beyond that point, and because in the real world people do have an upper price limit, regardless of how much car they really want. So Toyota sold every Avalon for $3-5K more and that disqualifies it? Give me a break. That pretty much justifies the entire argument that the Five Hundred didn't cut the mustard. Real world people are spending on average $25K-$26K for a new car. Adding another 5-6K to that is WELL within the means of a good portion of the car-buying populace (just look how many people can "manage" to afford an SUV which generally costs thousands more than an average car purchase). To ignore them (like Ford is doing) is idiotic. Every one of those potential sales is automatically lost to a competitor. It's even more idiotic when you take into account the slide in SUV sales. A lot of those people accustomed to paying more for an SUV are now willing to spend a similar amount for a car. Edited March 21, 2007 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I do, Ford had better worry a lot about the Tundra or it will do to the F150 what the Camry did to the Taurus.... "Those who do not learn from the past....." Apparently Toyoda has yet to learn from their past mistakes with the T-100/Tundra...they are on their 3rd generation (and on the market for 15 years plus too boot) and still can't come close to what GM or Ford is doing with Large Trucks, esp in the sales dept. It would be stupid to discount them as not as a competitor, but be running scared of them is something all together different. As for cars, well Ford has had issues with that for well over 30 years and has only gotten its shit together (or at least in CR eyes) in the past couple years.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Even BMW is changing its game now. While still 3 liters, they are now offering it with twin turbos in the 335i. Then there is the upcoming V8 M3. The TT 335 and V8 are the end of that trend though, not the beginning. There won't be any 4.6 or 6.0L-style 3-series beemers (I guess that is impossible anyway) as the higher performance products are going diesel moving forward. And hybrid. And higher mileage. Gas will be 3.50 by the end of the summer, and then the Pelosi/Reids will have us pulling out of (surrendering) Iraq and it will be all down-hill from there. I don't mean to debate politics, but higher HP is about to run it's course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 (edited) So Toyota sold every Avalon for $3-5K more and that disqualifies it? Give me a break. That pretty much justifies the entire argument that the Five Hundred didn't cut the mustard. No, it doesn't justify the argument. Ford can no more charge a premium, or even comparable prices for the Taurus than they can for the Fusion, and it has nothing to do with content, and it has everything to do with buyer perception. And something like 8,000 people stepped into the Edge last month. That's where a fair amount of your SUV out migration is going. Edited March 21, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
focus05 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 (edited) The TT 335 and V8 are the end of that trend though, not the beginning. There won't be any 4.6 or 6.0L-style 3-series beemers (I guess that is impossible anyway) as the higher performance products are going diesel moving forward. And hybrid. And higher mileage. Gas will be 3.50 by the end of the summer, and then the Pelosi/Reids will have us pulling out of (surrendering) Iraq and it will be all down-hill from there. I don't mean to debate politics, but higher HP is about to run it's course. Well, you made a political statement, so I'm going to address it. Most of Iraq's oil fields that are actually operating are being protected by private contractors. Most of our U.S. forces are occupied elsewhere. If we left, oil production would continue. The brilliance of money is that people do aything they can to make sure it doesn't run dry - much like Iraq's oil production. Now, all the U.S. companies that swept in and took over those fields behind our advancing forces might lose their stakes, however, that's the risk of business. Now, whether or not we pull out is not what I'm debating, but the reality is, if we did, we should expect, at worst, a short-term shock, not a long-term fallout. Now, the reality of the Fusion is that it is average. It's not crap. It's not fantastic. But, as far as quality, it is #1, and that's the most important. And that's helping get the Fusion on a lot more people's lists, and that is also important. Fusion on lists means more potential buyers, which will translate to more sales. As far as power, my parents, most of my friends and probably most average buyers have little concept of how much power a given car has. They know V6, and they know how it feels to drive it. The thing is, most can't tell between 7.0 to 60 or 6.1 to 60. So, the goal is to get it on people's lists. Some will buy, some won't. To the point about the Avalon v. 500 and the Fusion versus others in its class, Ford cannot command a premium in price, and the people who buy the Fusion want a competent, distinctive vehicle that is affordable (it undercuts the Camry by about $4000). Some people will find the combination compelling, others will not. Ford's going in position must be to build the highest quality vehicle possible at a price point that will pull people from Nissan, VW, GM and, if possible, Honda and Toyota. Ford needs to build rapport with conquest customers. Once quality is established, Ford's emphasis with their continual improvement should then be on making things *feel* good - like the touch of dash, the quality of the materials - and look good - like updating the center stack, maybe altering the front or rear slightly. The powertrain needs to be efficient, but it doesn't need to be 270 hp to be competitive in its class. 230-240 hp will do. Again, the average buyer won't care as long as it feels fast and the economy is on par with Camry. I guarantee it. And Ford isn't there to win the enthusiasts - we're a small part of the community - they're after the masses. And unfortunately, the masses won't return quickly, but through a high-quality, competent vehicle, Ford can slowly woo them back. A 270 hp engine won't boost Fusion's sales to 200,000 overnight or necessarily *keep* those sales in the long-term. A highly refined interior with maybe a drivetrain (especially I-4) that's slightly more refined overall (not more powerful) will go further. If Ford justs gains 10% in sales a year and doesn't have to push them out with bigger incentives, then the Fusion will be successful... and here is the key point in my mind, a successful Fusion will drag Ford up with it. Power, won't make it successful though. Competency, some personality, and quality will. That's what people will remember when they go to buy their next vehicle. Edited March 21, 2007 by focus05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Excellent reply !!! I predict that all the negatoids will completely ignore it.................... but good post none the less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Is that what this place is all about? a Bitch and Whine fest about how "WE" feel Ford should be run, based on our own little needs and wants? When our needs and wants aren't what the vast majority of people who buy Ford products are? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 (edited) No, it doesn't justify the argument. Ford can no more charge a premium, or even comparable prices for the Taurus than they can for the Fusion, and it has nothing to do with content, and it has everything to do with buyer perception. I agree. Typical statement from people today who aren't yet at the point of actually purchasing their first car: "I'm only going to buy a Toyota or Honda." "Why would I buy anything but a Hyundai - look at all the features that come standard." "My Pontiac sucks dick - what a piece of shit" etc. etc. Already biased. If I wasn't brought up to buy American vehicles, I'd be in a Subaru Legacy, a Nissan or a Honda. Honest. Edited March 21, 2007 by Roadrunner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 No, it doesn't justify the argument. Ford can no more charge a premium, or even comparable prices for the Taurus than they can for the Fusion, and it has nothing to do with content, and it has everything to do with buyer perception. And something like 8,000 people stepped into the Edge last month. That's where a fair amount of your SUV out migration is going. A "fair amount" is a "full amount". Ford is leaking customers from every pore, since they aren't building enough of the right products to keep those customers in the Ford showroom. And I completely disagree with it not being about content. There are things Ford could offer (and people WOULD buy) that would raise the prices. Optional engine? Check off another grand or so. HID's? Several hundred. Premium sound system? Tack on another several hundred. It all adds up pretty quickly. And looking at those 8000 Edge sales you mentioned, you've seen that a LOT of them have been the higher end models with rebates being slapped on the low end models to get rid of them, and that's with the Edge having an even higher base MSRP than the Five Hundred, by a significant margin. I think that supports my argument pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 A "fair amount" is a "full amount". Ford is leaking customers from every pore, since they aren't building enough of the right products to keep those customers in the Ford showroom. And I completely disagree with it not being about content. There are things Ford could offer (and people WOULD buy) that would raise the prices. Optional engine? Check off another grand or so. HID's? Several hundred. Premium sound system? Tack on another several hundred. It all adds up pretty quickly. And looking at those 8000 Edge sales you mentioned, you've seen that a LOT of them have been the higher end models with rebates being slapped on the low end models to get rid of them, and that's with the Edge having an even higher base MSRP than the Five Hundred, by a significant margin. I think that supports my argument pretty well. your arument fails at the fact that Avalon - to which we are comparing the Taurus tight now, does not have an optional enigne ... besides .. what happened to the "reasonable NickF1011" and who replaced you with a troll .. you knew all this you knew of the perception driven price difference between Japanese and US brands, you knew all of his, and all of sudden you forget because it is not in line with your argument? geez - the negatoism of this site needs to be infectious .. besides - last time I checked this thread was about the FUSION - not the Taurus - take your taurus bickering elsewhere . Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 (edited) What's funny about all of that is Ford hasn't always been slow to implement new technology. Take a look at the AdvanceTrac that was offered on the Focus a few years back or even how the Marks had HID technology when most German cars didn't even offer it as an option. Why things like bluetooth, keyless go and adaptive xenon headlights aren't even available on a Lincoln sure beats the hell out of me. Well actually I take that back, when the take rate on vehicles with high lux goods is low it's often silly to offer them up as no one wants them and they end up sitting around dealer lots. Quite frankly I find it a precarious position to be in. On a luxury marque such as Lincoln it isn't excuseable, from a mainstream brand perspective.......I dunno. As far as the Edge is concerned, things such as keyless go, backup cameras and HIDs should have been available from the get. Ford alleged that they were benchmarking the Nissan, but if they trully were they came out with the short end of the stick from an options stand point. As far as the rebate money is concerned, it's 500 dollars. That doesn't even cover destination and delivery costs. Edited March 21, 2007 by Michael Reynolds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 your arument fails at the fact that Avalon - to which we are comparing the Taurus tight now, does not have an optional enigne ... besides .. what happened to the "reasonable NickF1011" and who replaced you with a troll .. you knew all this you knew of the perception driven price difference between Japanese and US brands, you knew all of his, and all of sudden you forget because it is not in line with your argument? geez - the negatoism of this site needs to be infectious .. besides - last time I checked this thread was about the FUSION - not the Taurus - take your taurus bickering elsewhere . Igor Remember, I'm comparing the Five Hundred to the Avalon here, not the Taurus. In that respect, the Avalon doesn't NEED an optional engine to trump the lame duck Five Hundred in power. The comparison is slightly better with the new Taurus. Still not a win for Ford, but better. As for my trolling behavior. Yes. You're right. My girlfriend is in the market for a new car, and you know what? I can't give her one good reason to buy anything Ford sells right now. That annoys me. Sorry...back to bickering about the underpowered Fusion. :reading: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Remember, I'm comparing the Five Hundred to the Avalon here, not the Taurus. In that respect, the Avalon doesn't NEED an optional engine to trump the lame duck Five Hundred in power. The comparison is slightly better with the new Taurus. Still not a win for Ford, but better. As for my trolling behavior. Yes. You're right. My girlfriend is in the market for a new car, and you know what? I can't give her one good reason to buy anything Ford sells right now. That annoys me. Sorry...back to bickering about the underpowered Fusion. :reading: hehe fair enough .. and i see your point about the FH v. Taurus ... the comparison with the Avalon was unfavorable to the FH ... I will hold my judgement on the Taurus until it comes out. and about the other point - giving you GF reasons why to buy a Ford .. really .. PRICE .. they are cheaper with the same features .. The Fusion has less horses, but it is lighter, and thus the 0-60 is comparable. Is 1 extra MPG really worth $4k for a Camry? (assuming she is in the market for a midsize) you know what I am saying, you think the lower price is the RESULT of their inferiority - I say it is a smart business strategy how to get people to at least consider the Ford ... right now - if a Ford cost as much as a Toyota, people would ask "Why should I pay that much for a Ford when I can get Toyota for that money" - and this is regardless of the quality of the model .. this is based on the perception of BRAND quality, BRAND value for the money, BRAND longevity and BRAND prestige .. all factored in, Ford cannot charge as much as Toyota does . (PS I am not saying this position for Ford is undeserved - Ford dug this hole for itself - but I believe that is the situation today and for the coming years, and no matter how good the product RIGHT NOW could be - Ford would still have to factor in the perception legacy) Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 and about the other point - giving you GF reasons why to buy a Ford .. really .. PRICE .. they are cheaper with the same features .. The Fusion has less horses, but it is lighter, and thus the 0-60 is comparable. Is 1 extra MPG really worth $4k for a Camry? (assuming she is in the market for a midsize) The Fusion is about midpack in terms of engine performance, underpowered it is not. As far as fuel economy is concerned, if one is really concerned about how far they can go on a gallon of gas I really don't think that performance should be even uttered in the same sentence. Doesn't the Camry sip premium fuel anyhow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 The 500 isn't "anemic" as it sounds. It does 7.61 0-60, quarter in 15.9@ 90 from the Googling I could find. I couldn't find as much on the Avalon. I found results as low as 6 and as high as 8.4. I do believe the Avalon runs on premium only, so it'll cost you to get the higher HP and faster speeds. The 500's 6 speed does a damn good job of using all 200 some HP. I'll bet if you drive one back to back, you'd be surprised that there isn't really all that much difference. Plus, we're talking a "family sedan" here. Rocket power isn't typically necessary. Throw on top of that, the Avalon has had crap for a repair history. Between Toyota's sludge problem, and dropping trannies, I'll take a 500 any day of the week. And I'm not even talking about the updates coming out as a Taurus here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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