chevys Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/news/ford...esel-f-150.html I was wondering all along about how you could make a business case for this engine and it seems Ford is wondering now as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 (edited) http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/news/ford...esel-f-150.html I was wondering all along about how you could make a business case for this engine and it seems Ford is wondering now as well. blame the additional taxes levied on diesel fuel...I would embrace diesel more if the two fuels were similar in cost as in Europe......also 5.4 09 is rated at 20mpg's freeways as well.... Edited October 15, 2008 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Sometimes I think Ford spends more money vacillating back and forth on products than if they just went ahead finished developing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Sometimes I think Ford spends more money vacillating back and forth on products than if they just went ahead finished developing them. true story....but how can they ignore the diesels true strnghth...economy whilst TOWING....and the diesel would help the Expedition as well.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 blame the additional taxes levied on diesel fuel...I would embrace diesel more if the two fuels were similar in cost as in Europe......also 5.4 09 is rated at 20mpg's freeways as well.... The 20mpgs isn't on the 5.4L to my understanding. More for the 4.6L SFE models. Either way, I think they are noticing a big shift from diesels, even in the SD's due to the cost difference you mention. If the SD's 6.4L's are taking a hit, then how would people react to the 4.4L in the 150's? At the time it was announce, it was a great idea and being the cost was so similar for both fuels, it would be beneficial. Now, it would take much more time for the diesel to pay itself off and with the new EPA requirements, you aren't getting the power out of diesels that you once did. Sometimes I think Ford spends more money vacillating back and forth on products than if they just went ahead finished developing them. Agree 100%. Too many good ideas and money spent that Ford flushes down the drain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 The 20mpgs isn't on the 5.4L to my understanding. More for the 4.6L SFE models. Either way, I think they are noticing a big shift from diesels, even in the SD's due to the cost difference you mention. If the SD's 6.4L's are taking a hit, then how would people react to the 4.4L in the 150's? At the time it was announce, it was a great idea and being the cost was so similar for both fuels, it would be beneficial. Now, it would take much more time for the diesel to pay itself off and with the new EPA requirements, you aren't getting the power out of diesels that you once did. Agree 100%. Too many good ideas and money spent that Ford flushes down the drain. straight from the brochure 4.6 2v = 19, 4.6 3v 20, SFE package 4.6 =21, 5.4= 20...all hwy of course.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 (edited) The 20mpgs isn't on the 5.4L to my understanding. More for the 4.6L SFE models. Either way, I think they are noticing a big shift from diesels, even in the SD's due to the cost difference you mention. If the SD's 6.4L's are taking a hit, then how would people react to the 4.4L in the 150's? At the time it was announce, it was a great idea and being the cost was so similar for both fuels, it would be beneficial. Now, it would take much more time for the diesel to pay itself off and with the new EPA requirements, you aren't getting the power out of diesels that you once did. Agree 100%. Too many good ideas and money spent that Ford flushes down the drain. imagine the boost to diesel sales AND truckers if the Govt removed the levies it burdens diesel with....THAT alone would spike sales, more sales = mores sales tax, more DMV fees etc etc......good for the economy long term I would say.... Edited October 15, 2008 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I wonder how big the Russian market is for a non-Federal emissions 4.4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Ford Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Even if cost saving are diminished, it should be a more capable engine than the 5.4 maybe. Maybe the problem is the performance of upcoming gas engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goinbroke2 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 :shades: Now that would seriously suck. Gas is 1.09 a Litre here and diesel is 1.22 I think. That is $4.12 an American gallon for gas and $4.61 for diesel. Or $4.94 Can gas and $5.53 Can Diesel A 4 door one ton with a gasser gets what 15mpg Canadian? I get 25mpg. So, 25miles / 5.53 =4.52 miles per dollar for diesel or, 15miles / 4.94 =3.03 miles per dollar for gas Unless I'm looking at it backwards somehow....don't think so. Or to go 25 miles with a gasser getting 15mpg would cost $8.25 Of course one thing you can't do with a gasser that you can with a diesel is burn *cough cough furnace oil cough cough* at .92 a litre or $4.17 a Canadian gallon. 25miles / 4.17 = 5.99 miles per dollar. Not that I would ever burn tax free furnace oil in my old IDI 7.3....... :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I agree with Tom's comment... I too believe Ford wastes more money, on the wishywashyness of it, than just getting it done. Same with concepts...if your not going to build it, WHY design one? Just DO IT.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
focus05 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I think the real challenge for Ford is not how you justify it against their 5.4, but how you justify it against their 3.5 Ecoboost. If the 5.4 is rated at 14/20, that 3.5 is probably rated 17/23(or 24) in truck applications - probably spot on what the diesel would be rated. The diesel would have more torque, yes, but the 3.5 would be vastly cheaper, use less expensive fuel and not carry the emissions burden. It doesn't sound to me like the 4.4 is dead. It will show up in the Super Duty when they cut off Navistar even if it never makes the F-150. That might just mean a debut in 2011 instead of 2010. And if they get sufficient volume and can work out the manufacturing costs for the F-150, they might drop the diesel in just for kicks for the few who will swear by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMSA-XJR9 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I agree with Tom's comment... I too believe Ford wastes more money, on the wishywashyness of it, than just getting it done. Same with concepts...if your not going to build it, WHY design one? Just DO IT.... Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpc655 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I mentioned a few weeks ago that timing was pushed further. Looks like i was right..unfortunately. This is one of ford's problems, they want to make sure they're decision is right before releasing something, the problem is by then their too late! By the time they know if the market wants a diesel, GM will already have one out there and ford will be 2 or 3 years behind. Although it's not mentioned..i'm still hearing ford's in talks to buy diesels from GM. time will tell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Meanwhile, VW can't satisfy demand for diesel jetta's here, and they are going to build a Civic fighter stateside, likely with a diesel. Ford will figure out it's a good idea around 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 (edited) the business case is there. This engine should not be entirely an F150 engine. The fact is, the Powerstroke is too much engine for many applications. It keeps growing and growing for pissing rights. The 4.4 should be made available on 250s and 350s. Why? Because many of these trucks are not hauling horse trailers on 5000k trips. They are used by construction companies that never leave the city. a 25mpg F250 would be in high demand by small fleets. After all, the 5.4 in a 250 is a serious gas hog. The V10 and Powerstroke are as well when used as city vehicles (compared to a 300hp 4.4 diesel) This engine also needs to be made available for the Econoline. One reason the Sprinter kicked ass is because of the fuel savings for city livery service. When rolled out across 3 truck platforms (not including Expedition), that is an easy 100k units. Thats a pretty damned solid business case. Edited October 16, 2008 by J-150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I agree with Tom's comment... I too believe Ford wastes more money, on the wishywashyness of it, than just getting it done. Same with concepts...if your not going to build it, WHY design one? Just DO IT.... It will go in the Navigator and Expedition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 true story....but how can they ignore the diesels true strnghth...economy whilst TOWING....and the diesel would help the Expedition as well.... That is really the problem. The F150 doesn't get used for a lot of towing. Most folks who tow a lot upgrade to the F250 or F350. Actually, the 4.4L would be perfect in an F250 or E250, and I do expect that it will show up there. BTW, I agree with the comments on reducing diesel costs. The trucking industry would love it and in the end we all would share in the benefit (what product doesn't get put on a diesel powered truck somewhere betwwen its source and its point of sale ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 It will go in the Navigator and Expedition. I would think that the E Series would see it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I would think that the E Series would see it too. it should. the more vehicles that see it, the better the business case. In Canada, diesel is pretty damned close to gasoline in price. Then factor in a number of bio-diesel plants opening up (that could sell it cheaper than dino-diesel) and you have a vehicle that can save you 10-20% in fuel costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomaro Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 (edited) I think you guys are getting all riled up for nothing about the RUMOR of no diesel in the F-150. Someone remember this thread just in case Ford offers an Ecoboost powerplant that is equal to the 4.4 diesel in terms of power, towing, and economy. Maybe ecoboost with direct injection is better than we have been lead to believe. Edited October 16, 2008 by atomaro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I think you guys are getting all riled up for nothing about the RUMOR of no diesel in the F-150. Someone remember this thread just in case Ford offers an Ecoboost powerplant that is equal to the 4.4 diesel in terms of power, towing, and economy. Maybe ecoboost with direct injection is better than we have been lead to believe. no ecoboost will ever equal a diesel in longevity, which is a very important factor in trucks used for work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGolden Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 no ecoboost will ever equal a diesel in longevity, which is a very important factor in trucks used for work. My dad has a fleet of superduty trucks, ~12 as of now. He has had mainly powerstrokes over the past 10 years and puts around 50-60k a year on them. They always get fully loaded and sometimes run offroad. He started buying a few gas engines, 5.4 and v10, as replacements a few years ago. He discovered that they have no trouble going 300k miles. He basically gets rid of the trucks with around 300k on them becasue the chassis and body are shot, not because the engine didnt last long enough. There are sacrifices in driveablilty though, at least with the 5.4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Meanwhile, VW can't satisfy demand for diesel jetta's here, and they are going to build a Civic fighter stateside, likely with a diesel. Ford will figure out it's a good idea around 2012. Correction: VW doesn't WANT to satisfy demand for diesel Jettas here. They are keeping supply levels artificially low to keep prices high. VW can do no wrong though. That "German-engineered" Chrysler minivan is going to take over the market for sure. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 no ecoboost will ever equal a diesel in longevity, which is a very important factor in trucks used for work. How do you know that? What specifically on the EcoBoost powertrains would make them inherently less reliable than a diesel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.