Mercury's Fate Anounced Today

[2b2]

Will there is a point to the Milan and thousands it sells each month, people likes its styling and those people are not going to jump on a Fusion.

 

Where is my friend 2b2?

I'm here now, SaintLaz1 - I was out in the boondocks/offline all day

MUTUAL CONDOLENCES!

 

imho, tho they may have cashflow

Ford's Imagination Is BANKRUPT

&

- they've been STARVING Merc for 10 years

- and Killing Merc just as the market is getting ready to re-discover 'Premium'

&

really LINCOLN has NOT Existed for some time (no Continental = no Lincoln)

so they'll be rebadging the Mercs as Lincolns & Titaniums

 

Ford might as well toss Lincoln into the garbage too. Lincoln has never met it's potential either. It was never a Cadillac (or Lexus or BMW or ....) fighter.

 

Really, just make it "ONE FORD" and be done with it.

 

This really pisses me off. Mercury was squandered for the last 10 or 20 years. This is Ford's fault. They could have done so much with the Mercury brand. When they ditched PAG I had hopes they'd invest in new products for their "lost brand." The only reason it was lost is my their own neglect.

 

They basically lost a company that produced 500,000 cars a year. That's inept......maybe Ford shouldn't be in business either.

QuotedForTruth

 

Mercury ... 500K sales was 32 years ago...

438,000 in 1999

 

Lincoln had better improve,or it's on the road to extinction too.

?...are you oblivious to how far they have come in a mere 5 years?

with their BANKRUPT Imagination, NO part of Fomoco looks too good to me just now.

&

I'm well aware of Lincoln being LESS OF AN EMBARRASSMENT - THAT'S ALL

 

Mercury isn't going away, it's being rebranded "Titanium" .

QuotedForTruth

 

wonder who'll be first to offer aftermarket waterfall grille?

 

But you can't replace the "Titanium" label with "Mercury".....

WANNA BET?

 

 

final word:

MERCURY DID NOT DIE

IT WAS SLOWLY MURDERED!

[twintornados]

final word:

MERCURY DID NOT DIE

IT WAS SLOWLY MURDERED!

:angel: It was too little, too late.....May Mercury rest in peace....I know I will cherish my 1976 Montego MX all the more....was planning on a Milan next year....now? Maybe an MKZ, if they get rid of the "bow wave" grille...I liked the first iteration of it much better....I also liked the grille style on BORG's MKX.

Edited June 3, 2010 by twintornados

[630land]

"438,000 in 1999"

 

11 years ago is an eternity in the marketplace. Badge jobs are dead, deal with it.

[atomcat68]

Mercury's sales were just going to cycle down to 0 in a few years anyway. It looks like only Ford addicts like us knew the brand still existed. I'm one of the few people left who can say I owned one. I had it for 7 years and turned it in when I had my mid life crisis for a Mustang.

[Joesplace]

What a shame they let it come to this...Merc had some important history in the 60's and 70's... some much for the wish to see a XR-7 again

[Marginal Economist]

This is the right time to say goodbye to Mercury. With only the Mariner and the Milan left, Fusion and Escape can pcik up the production and not miss a beat. This was not true 18 months ago. Ford dealers are screaming for Fusion and this will help.

 

It will be very hard for the stand alone LM stores - I expect to see many more dualed Ford - Lincoln stores in 12 months.

[fordmantpw]

Funny note...my parents picked up their new Milan today. I called them about 3:00 Central and told them the news about 10 minutes before they picked it up. The salesman at the dealer hadn't heard it yet!

[rmc523]

I'm just hoping Lincoln gets a version of the next Escape, then I think the dealers will be in good shape. I would be very interested in such a vehicle.

 

 

I pretty sure that one was going to happen whether Mercury lived or not, at least there was plenty of talk of a Lincoln Escape for a while there.

 

Will there is a point to the Milan and thousands it sells each month, people likes its styling and those people are not going to jump on a Fusion.

 

Where is my friend 2b2?

 

 

In mourning LOL.

 

Your perspective down under made me think of another thing too: One Ford. The only remaining market left for Mercury was the United States. In the long term, Ford is going to want to eventually spread Lincoln internationally. With Mercury still sucking away resources for one market, it makes that more difficult as it seemed unlikely that Mercury was ever going to spread its wings internationally again. It just simplifies things considerably.

 

 

That's a very good point that I never thought of!

 

lets see:

1. Refreshed MKS

2. Redone MKZ in 2013/14

3.MKX this year

4.Escape/Kuga Crossover

5. Navigator update

6. C-sized Sedan?

7. RWD Flagship? :D

 

 

 

My guesses are/were (in no particular order):

-MKG (Escape) for 2012

-MKS refresh for 2012

-MKT refresh for 2013,

-c-segment vehicle (I assume there'll be a sedan to go along with the MK'G')

-Navigator redesign

-MKX refresh this year, full redesign in 2014

-MKR of some sort

 

 

This is all the press release said about it: Lincoln's first-ever C-segment vehicle

 

 

I think short-term that means just the MKG (Escape), but I agree with Nick in saying a sedan of some sort will probably eventually make it's way into the lineup.

 

so let me get this correct: the Lincoln LS failed because it was RWD???

 

Or did it fail because internal beuracracy at FoMoCo resulted in an expensive platform from the get-go coupled with a product lauch that was never class leading to begin with and was left for Dead almost from the get-go? But I get it now, it had nothing to do with poor execution, management, and that often-emulated-never-duplicated Ford Bean Counter philosophy? RWD doesn't work for Lincoln. The MKZ/zephler are the idols of the industry and Ford has re-written the history books on how to build a luxury sedan people want to buy. Gotcha!!! Thanks for clearing that up!

 

 

Maybe Ford is learning from it's mistakes by not just throwing a new Lincoln on an expensive, limited RWD platform and is instead waiting to do it right? Did you ever think of that?

 

they NEED a Halo car to draw attention to the marque.....so here goes, RWD, 3.7 eco 400 plus hp 2 door coupe with dramatic styling and BIG bragging numbers....sound familar? MKR anyone.....

 

 

Yes please!!!!

 

with their BANKRUPT Imagination, NO part of Fomoco looks too good to me just now.

 

We all know you have a never-ending love of Mercury for reasons not completely known to me, but on the contrary to what your saying, perhaps the death of Mercury WILL lead to better, more distinct products that WILL look good to you. Mercury is being sacrificed for the good of the company.

[2b2]

My guesses are/were (in no particular order):

-MKG (Escape) for 2012

-MKS refresh for 2012

-MKT refresh for 2013,

-c-segment vehicle (I assume there'll be a sedan to go along with the MK'G')

-Navigator redesign

-MKX refresh this year, full redesign in 2014

-MKR of some sort

 

with their BANKRUPT Imagination, NO part of Fomoco looks too good to me just now.

...on the contrary to what your saying, perhaps the death of Mercury WILL lead to better, more distinct products that WILL look good to you. Mercury is being sacrificed for the good of the company.

you forgot the MKZ, Rmc - sorry NO MKR - at least not as part of those 7

Still feel so positive about Lincoln?

otoh

there's a thread you-know-where for ideas on how FoMoCo can build a believable Focus-based luxury car...

[rmc523]

you forgot the MKZ, Rmc - sorry NO MKR - at least not as part of those 7

Still feel so positive about Lincoln?

otoh

there's a thread you-know-where for ideas on how FoMoCo can build a believable Focus-based luxury car...

 

Oops, forgot about an MKZ redesign - my c-segment sedan was just a guess, so that and an MKR could be interchangeable.

[NickF1011]

so let me get this correct: the Lincoln LS failed because it was RWD???

 

Or did it fail because internal beuracracy at FoMoCo resulted in an expensive platform from the get-go coupled with a product lauch that was never class leading to begin with and was left for Dead almost from the get-go? But I get it now, it had nothing to do with poor execution, management, and that often-emulated-never-duplicated Ford Bean Counter philosophy? RWD doesn't work for Lincoln. The MKZ/zephler are the idols of the industry and Ford has re-written the history books on how to build a luxury sedan people want to buy. Gotcha!!! Thanks for clearing that up!

 

There is nothing inherently different now that would make a new RWD platform for Lincoln any less of a failure. If Ford can share such a platform across far more vehicles, then it becomes a possibility. But yeah. If Ford tried to launch another LS-type vehicle now without volume Ford products sharing it to support the platform, it would fail. The MKZ isn't the solution, but on a shared platform that makes a lot of money, it certainly isn't the problem.

[nelsonlu]

Oddest dealer pairing I've seen locally is Ford-Kia.

 

Not that odd... One dealership close to where I work (which, however, is shutting down) is an FLM/Kia dealership. Kia effectively serves as the "lowest level" brand for the dealership, I think.

[akirby]

There is nothing inherently different now that would make a new RWD platform for Lincoln any less of a failure. If Ford can share such a platform across far more vehicles, then it becomes a possibility. But yeah. If Ford tried to launch another LS-type vehicle now without volume Ford products sharing it to support the platform, it would fail. The MKZ isn't the solution, but on a shared platform that makes a lot of money, it certainly isn't the problem.

 

Bingo. The LS was stuck with expensive Jag based, low volume performance engines limited to 4.2L (yes they could have supercharged them but they were still expensive). If they could have at least used the less expensive 4.6L mod V8 that would have helped some but choosing to share a platform with Jag and then being hamstrung by the marketing types who wouldn't let them compete with each other AND not having a good business case for European sales to help amortize the platform pretty much guaranteed failure.

 

I heard inside sources that said the original business case was based on 100K annual units globally and that it was never achievable.

 

However that platform did help the engineers understand handling and driving dynamics on a production sedan (based on F1 training) and it gave us Selectshift and rain sensing wipers and a few other goodies 11 years ago.

 

I wonder if the electric parking brake will also make a return to Lincoln? Always thought that was neat although I think it had reliability issues.

[morgande]

Maybe Ford is learning from it's mistakes by not just throwing a new Lincoln on an expensive, limited RWD platform and is instead waiting to do it right? Did you ever think of that?

 

Pay me now, vs pay me later. The more Ford waits for the right 'time' to introduce RWD, the more chance of either:

1. There will never be a 'right' time and Lincoln will never see RWD again.
   
2. By the time Ford finally does figure out how to do global RWD on the cheap, Lincoln will be dead anyway and it won't mater
   

 

Sometimes it better to take the pain up front, verses limping along with bandages and half-effort attempts until you find the optimal time to execute. Some might be a critic of GM for investing so much into Cadillac, but I applaud them. If GM wants Cadillac relevant, they have to take the pain up front and that's exactly what they are doing. If they risk waiting, Cadillac falls further from grace and you get to a point where the brand isn't worth saving anymore. I'd argue their execution could probably be a little better, but I at least applaud the effort. And based on Sales, it appears they are in a far better position than Lincoln is.

 

There is nothing inherently different now that would make a new RWD platform for Lincoln any less of a failure. If Ford can share such a platform across far more vehicles, then it becomes a possibility. But yeah. If Ford tried to launch another LS-type vehicle now without volume Ford products sharing it to support the platform, it would fail. The MKZ isn't the solution, but on a shared platform that makes a lot of money, it certainly isn't the problem.

 

The MKZ is the problem. Or at least its a symptom of the problem. Just because its overall development cost is low because its badged doesn't justify a half-effort attempt to compete in the first place. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. What does Ford want MKZ to be? An ES fighter? It can't possibly be an ES fighter. Lincoln isn't build to compete with Lexus. The product placement strategies are all wrong. The execution is all wrong. Everything is at a miss match.

 

Toyota makes a very basic Camry. And then prices the ES as a great step up into the Lexus brand from a Camry. The Camry isn't watered down, but its not world-class either. Its just kind of there. Ford made the Fusion very much so world class. They had to make it better than a Camry in order to compete, and so they did. The result is the Fusion is a far better car than the Camry. But now the issue is that the MKZ isn't much of a step up. Its not much different than a Fusion. And its going to be hard to make the MKZ an attractive entry point for Lincoln when the Fusion offers what it does. There is less value to move from a Fusion to a MKZ vs moving from a Camry to an ES.

 

Pound for pound, there is little that MKZ has that Fusion doesn't. Same power trains. Same technology features. Remember the MyLincoln system, how is it any different than MyFord? Where is the value add? I can go on and on. And I won't even mention Cadillac because the MKZ doesn't compete with the CTS.

 

The bean-counters philosophy combined with the chicken-egg paradigm means that Lincoln won't be seeing RWD anytime soon if ever. It's a pipe dream at best. So how would you address this? Build a better MKZ? Even if you hang completely different sheet metal on it, give it standard AWD, and 300hp it still has to deal with the fact that the Fusion undercuts its at almost every major point. And even then, I hardly doubt that Ford would even go that route.

 

Seems to me like your happy enough with low volume, high profit margin vehicles. They might only appeal to die-hard brand loyalist, or bargain basement shoppers who don't want to spend the money for something more up market. It might make you a little bit of money in the short run, but it is killing you in the long run.

[NickF1011]

The MKZ is the problem. Or at least its a symptom of the problem. Just because its overall development cost is low because its badged doesn't justify a half-effort attempt to compete in the first place. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. What does Ford want MKZ to be? An ES fighter? It can't possibly be an ES fighter. Lincoln isn't build to compete with Lexus. The product placement strategies are all wrong. The execution is all wrong. Everything is at a miss match.

 

Toyota makes a very basic Camry. And then prices the ES as a great step up into the Lexus brand from a Camry. The Camry isn't watered down, but its not world-class either. Its just kind of there. Ford made the Fusion very much so world class. They had to make it better than a Camry in order to compete, and so they did. The result is the Fusion is a far better car than the Camry. But now the issue is that the MKZ isn't much of a step up. Its not much different than a Fusion. And its going to be hard to make the MKZ an attractive entry point for Lincoln when the Fusion offers what it does. There is less value to move from a Fusion to a MKZ vs moving from a Camry to an ES.

 

Pound for pound, there is little that MKZ has that Fusion doesn't. Same power trains. Same technology features. Remember the MyLincoln system, how is it any different than MyFord? Where is the value add? I can go on and on. And I won't even mention Cadillac because the MKZ doesn't compete with the CTS.

 

The bean-counters philosophy combined with the chicken-egg paradigm means that Lincoln won't be seeing RWD anytime soon if ever. It's a pipe dream at best. So how would you address this? Build a better MKZ? Even if you hang completely different sheet metal on it, give it standard AWD, and 300hp it still has to deal with the fact that the Fusion undercuts its at almost every major point. And even then, I hardly doubt that Ford would even go that route.

 

Seems to me like your happy enough with low volume, high profit margin vehicles. They might only appeal to die-hard brand loyalist, or bargain basement shoppers who don't want to spend the money for something more up market. It might make you a little bit of money in the short run, but it is killing you in the long run.

 

What are you talking about? Camry content and pricing is aligned nearly identically to the Fusion in every respect. Just because the Fusion currently does it better doesn't in any way mean that's not where Toyota is aiming the Camry. Camry pricing goes well north of $30K and encroches on intro level ES territory already, exactly as the Fusion does to the MKZ:

 

Camry base price: $19,595

Camry loaded price: ~$33,000

ES base price: $35,175

 

Fusion base price: $19,695

Fusion loaded price: ~$33,000

MKZ base price: $34,225

 

The only difference currently between the MKZ and ES is that Ford needs to take the MKZ a little further in its differentiation, which is inevitably going to happen down the line with the next redesign. It is already being seen on all the other newer Lincoln models like the MKS and MKT. The MKZ is simply waiting its turn. Otherwise, the Fusion/MKZ and Camry/ES business models are identical in basically every respect.

Edited June 3, 2010 by NickF1011

[morgande]

What are you talking about? Camry content and pricing is aligned nearly identically to the Fusion in every respect. Just because the Fusion currently does it better doesn't in any way mean that's not where Toyota is aiming the Camry. Camry pricing goes well north of $30K and encroches on intro level ES territory already, exactly as the Fusion does to the MKZ:

 

Camry base price: $19,595

Camry loaded price: ~$33,000

ES base price: $35,175

 

Fusion base price: $19,695

Fusion loaded price: ~$33,000

MKZ base price: $34,225

 

The only difference currently between the MKZ and ES is that Ford needs to take the MKZ a little further in its differentiation, which is inevitably going to happen down the line with the next redesign. It is already being seen on all the other newer Lincoln models like the MKS and MKT. The MKZ is simply waiting its turn. Otherwise, the Fusion/MKZ and Camry/ES business models are identical in basically every respect.

 

What are you talking about? Who mentioned anything about price? Your arguing that the business models are the same because the price points are the about the same? I'm saying that a ES is a far more logical 'step up' to the Camry than the MKZ is to the Fusion. The business models are 'similar', but the execution is all wrong. Look at what you get in a Camry verses what you get in Fusion. Do you see the disparity? There are a lot of luxury-like features that are available in a Fusion that you can't get in a Camry. You have to 'step up' into an ES to get those kinds of amenities. If you can get the same feature...pound4pound...on a lower class vehicle, when why buy the higher class vehicle? Whats the value add? THAT is my point! There is nothing that Lincoln offers that is special over the Ford equivalent. THAT is my point!

[NickF1011]

What are you talking about? Who mentioned anything about price? Your arguing that the business models are the same because the price points are the about the same? I'm saying that a ES is a far more logical 'step up' to the Camry than the MKZ is to the Fusion. The business models are 'similar', but the execution is all wrong. Look at what you get in a Camry verses what you get in Fusion. Do you see the disparity? There are a lot of luxury-like features that are available in a Fusion that you can't get in a Camry. You have to 'step up' into an ES to get those kinds of amenities. If you can get the same feature...pound4pound...on a lower class vehicle, when why buy the higher class vehicle? Whats the value add? THAT is my point! There is nothing that Lincoln offers that is special over the Ford equivalent. THAT is my point!

 

I expect you to complain about the next generation Camry then when it debuts with basically all of the features now available in the Fusion. As I said, the only difference at all is that the Fusion does better what the Camry is supposed to do too. And frankly, there really isn't anything that the ES offers that is a gigantic step above the Camry either. That's why the ES and MKZ are both entry level luxury vehicles.

 

You shouldn't artificially decontent your mass production vehicles simply for the purpose of offering those options uniquely on your luxury lines, because if you do, your competitors will offer them and leave you behind -- witness exactly where the Camry is now in comparison to its competitors like the new Fusion and Sonata.

 

The reasons for buying luxury vehicles these days go beyond the options the vehicle offers. It has more to do with the experience now. What image does the vehicle portray? What kind of driving style does it transmit? What does the dealership experience bring over other "ordinary" brands? Expanded warranties, free loaners, etc. Those are the reasons to buy a luxury car these days, not the fact that it offers a voice-activated audio system and all-wheel drive when the more "ordinary" version of it doesn't.

Edited June 3, 2010 by NickF1011

[Edstock]

What are you talking about? Who mentioned anything about price?

YOU did.

 

"Seems to me like your happy enough with low volume, high profit margin vehicles. They might only appeal to die-hard brand loyalist, or bargain basement shoppers who don't want to spend the money for something more up market. It might make you a little bit of money in the short run, but it is killing you in the long run."

 

You talk about money, you talk about price.

 

I wish the MK Z had been more differentiated from the Fusion/Milan. But Ford didn't have the powertrains, and didn't want to spend for a different roof or better side-window technology. This seems to be changing, but it does not happen overnight.

[ANTAUS]

Akirby, I believe the LS wasn't able to accept the 4.6L because it was too tall, and the front suspension of the LS would not have accomodated it isnt that true?

[NickF1011]

Akirby, I believe the LS wasn't able to accept the 4.6L because it was too tall, and the front suspension of the LS would not have accomodated it isnt that true?

 

I believe width was an issue as well. It was simply poor platform planning on Ford's part.

[morgande]

I expect you to complain about the next generation Camry then when it debuts with basically all of the features now available in the Fusion. As I said, the only difference at all is that the Fusion does better what the Camry is supposed to do too. And frankly, there really isn't anything that the ES offers that is a gigantic step above the Camry either. That's why the ES and MKZ are both entry level luxury vehicles.

 

You shouldn't artificially decontent your mass production vehicles simply for the purpose of offering those options uniquely on your luxury lines, because if you do, your competitors will offer them and leave you behind -- witness exactly where the Camry is now in comparison to its competitors like the new Fusion and Sonata.

 

You still don't get my point. The step-up only works when there is enough disparity between model A, and model B. If model A encroaches too much into model B, then Model B has to evolve into something else entirely to make sense. It has to go in a completely different direction to maintain relevance. Im not saying that the Fusion should de-evolve to give the MKZ breathing room. I'm saying take the MKZ into a whole new category.

[NickF1011]

You still don't get my point. The step-up only works when there is enough disparity between model A, and model B. If model A encroaches too much into model B, then Model B has to evolve into something else entirely to make sense. It has to go in a completely different direction to maintain relevance. Im not saying that the Fusion should de-evolve to give the MKZ breathing room. I'm saying take the MKZ into a whole new category.

 

Please explain to me what the ES offers that makes it such a must-have luxury item over the Camry (or the MKZ for that matter). Now point out which of those items will likely still not be available on the next generation Camry or are not already available on vehicles like the Fusion, Sonata, Accord, or Altima. Just because the Camry is trailing the pack as far as midsize sedan features go doesn't make the ES any more desirable a luxury vehicle.

 

The ES sells based solely on the things I stated: image and ownership experience. It has basically nothing to do with the features it offers over the Camry or other competitors, because frankly, there aren't (m)any.

[morgande]

YOU did.

 

"Seems to me like your happy enough with low volume, high profit margin vehicles. They might only appeal to die-hard brand loyalist, or bargain basement shoppers who don't want to spend the money for something more up market. It might make you a little bit of money in the short run, but it is killing you in the long run."

 

You talk about money, you talk about price.

 

I wish the MK Z had been more differentiated from the Fusion/Milan. But Ford didn't have the powertrains, and didn't want to spend for a different roof or better side-window technology. This seems to be changing, but it does not happen overnight.

 

You taking that out of context. I was saying that the MKZ is basically appealing to set of buyers who are Ford Loyalist (or Lincoln Loyalist), and who don't want to spend a lot of money. That has nothing to do with the comparison of a Fusion/MKZ and a Camry/ES based on price points. The value add of the ES over the Camry has nothing to do with price.

[akirby]

Akirby, I believe the LS wasn't able to accept the 4.6L because it was too tall, and the front suspension of the LS would not have accomodated it isnt that true?

 

Nope - it fit in the engine bay just fine. In fact several LS owners got a ride around the test track in a 4.6L equipped LS with a manual trans. The problem was that the lower suspension was in the way and the engine could not be installed on the assembly line because they're installed from the bottom.

 

Also in 2004 two Lincoln engineers entered a Roush prepared supercharged 4.6L Lincoln LS in the C&D One Lap of America. It fit but wasn't practical for production.

[morgande]

Please explain to me what the ES offers that makes it such a must-have luxury item over the Camry (or the MKZ for that matter). Now point out which of those items will likely still not be available on the next generation Camry or are not already available on vehicles like the Fusion, Sonata, Accord, or Altima. Just because the Camry is trailing the pack as far as midsize sedan features go doesn't make the ES any more desirable a luxury vehicle.

 

The ES sells based solely on the things I stated: image and ownership experience. It has basically nothing to do with the features it offers over the Camry or other competitors, because frankly, there aren't (m)any.

 

Interior shot of 2010 Fusion:

http://z.about.com/d/alternativefuels/1/0/u/L/-/-/10FusionHybrid_24.jpg

 

Interior shot of 2010 MKZ

http://www.clutchd.com/wp-content/gallery/19_march_2009-2010-lincoln-mkz/2010-lincoln-mkz-5.jpg

 

Interior shot of 2010 Camry

http://images.newcars.com/images/car-pictures/original/2010-Toyota-Camry-Hybrid-Sedan-Base-4dr-Sedan-Interior-Front-Seats-2.png

 

Interior shot of 2010 ES

http://image.modified.com/f/26253733/modp_0909_05_o+2010_lexus_es_350+interior.jpg