Mercury Dead, Lincoln Lineup to Expand

[nelsonlu]

I'm not sure where there is overlap between Ford and Lincoln, that FOMOCO will find success.

 

Using Toyota/Lexus as an example, is there a Toyota model that would be considered nicer than a "lesser" model Lexus (ES350 - Avalon), or vice versa, that sells in any quantity?

 

Does the A4 sell substantially better than the Passat or vice-versa?

 

I'm not sure that Lincoln can be successful selling a "premium" Focus, when a well-equipped Fusion could presumably be had for the same (or less) money.

 

There needs to be more exclusivity on the Lincoln side. Maybe it would be ok to have a Focus-based Lincoln if a really special model (SVT?) were available? But could Ford do it profitably?

 

The Prius is arguably a nicer car than the Lexus HS. (I know, they're not really on the same platform, but...)

[silvrsvt]

I am disappointed to see Mercury get axed. Under the One Ford Plan, I imagine the Lincoln will be facing the same scenario soon. After all, if a Mustang GT can hit $42,000 with options, then what would a Lincoln have to cost in order to be "above" a Ford name plate?

 

 

Ford doesn't have snob appeal. A $40K ES350 or RX doesn't stop it being bought by people who could get a cheaper Camary or Highlander. Then there is this little fact that Lincoln doesn't even have a RWD coupe in its lineup to worry about the Mustang..you can sit get the GT for 30K or so, only when you load up the options does it get expensive.

 

Perhaps thats the biggest issue with Lincoln...it needs a better/improved image.

 

 

[silvrsvt]

 

And I'm upset. I just want to know when Ford will stop shrinking?

 

Ford as a brand is up in market share this year. Ford needed to shrink...there is no reason to dump cars on the market and make no $$$ on them just to keep plants open. They need to right-size and regrow properly. Its like trimming back a bush or tree..more you cut the better it grows back.

[akirby]

What else is in the "MKS segment"? Oldsmobile? Pontiac? Seriously, what does it compete with? And "one of the top sellers in its segment" really is not high praise.

 

The MKS outsells everything except the E class and BMW 5 series. That includes all of the Japanese luxury makes (Acura RS, Lexus GS, Infinit M) plus the Audi A6 and everything else.

 

If the MKS is a sales failure then they need to cancel the RS, GS, M, A6 and everything else that sells even less.

Edited June 6, 2010 by akirby

[timmm55]

 

 

Have u seen any comparos on MKS or MKT? In the case of the S, the car is not rated very well at all. A typical Ford half-effort is what it is. Just good enough is good enough. Reviewers like the twin-turbo. They just don't lke what happens when the road curves.

 

 

 

TTAC isn't a Ford Fan site..at all.......but they like it.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-2010-lincoln-mks/

 

Edmunds doesn't like it.........(same 1 of 3 persons who has a Fusion floor mat "layer" problem?)

http://www.edmunds.com/lincoln/mks/2010/review.html

 

It's rated well, except for handling. It's not the most agile......but it's BIG and is heavy. Also fast and comfortable. And a techo delight.

[RileyWells]

This is very disappointing.

I currently own an '07 MKX purchased at a Lincoln / Mercury dealer that was easily the equal of any Lexus or Infiniti dealer regarding service or the quality of the facility. Unfortunately, the dealership folded and I was forced to use a local Ford dealer for service.

The Ford dealer is OK but not nearly the personal service and the facility itself is just plain Kaka.

Though I am happy with my car, it now feels like I own a very expensive Ford. I just don't see the perq of owning a premium brand.

Ford has to differentiate the Lincoln experience from the Ford experience or not compete in that segment.

Next car I'll be looking at Caddy and maybe even hold my nose and consider a fancy Toyota.

BTW. I'm one of those customers that moved from Ford to Mercury to Lincoln. I thought that was always the idea to retain customers.

[rmc523]

Next car I'll be looking at Caddy and maybe even hold my nose and consider a fancy Toyota..

 

You're not gonna look at the 2011 MKX?

 

Didn't know they made those..... :shades:

[630land]

Two reasons Mercury is dead:

 

Quotes from The Detroit News:

 

1." Ford Motor Co. passed on government aid, avoided bankruptcy and now builds cars and trucks that rival Toyota and Honda in quality. Against the backdrop of one of the worst car markets in history, Ford has not just stopped losing share but is steadily regaining it." [Ford needs more Fusions and Escapes cars to sell and beat Camry/Accord, CRV/RAV4, no need for rebadges anymore]

 

2. "Brand loyalty is becoming a thing of the past with consumers more willing to consider products from manufacturers they have never shopped before" [No one in the real world outside SE MI knows or cares about 'brand image/history/traditions', they want the best car for $$, not stupid rebadge throwbacks to 1950's excess.]

 

So, what's done is done, and the whiners have to get over it and move on.

[StangBang]

This is the one thing I'll be watching. Will Ford have enough gonads to give us something bold like the Lincoln C? Or will the new C-class vehicle be a watered-down (up?) Focus with a new grille and tail lights?

 

If they know what's right, Lincoln needs to do a C concept and not just rebadge and regrille a Focus. The "Town Clown Car" as I call it...

 

It will have to make a statement of it's own being an expressive, somewhat funky premium lifestyle vehicle that you cannot get over at the Ford dealer. It just may work the same way that Mini's are sold alongside BMW's, or Smart Cars sold at Mercedes dealers.

 

If it shows up as a rebadged Focus, it will be laughed at... But hey I predicted the Lincoln "MKY" a couple of years ago!

 

The signs have been there quite a few months now since the reveal of the Lincoln C Concept. They have been taking it seriously and as Ford has been doing in recent years with concept vehicles, it is usually a prelude to what they are actually going to do.

 

Edited June 7, 2010 by StangBang

[akirby]

How many times does Ford have to say "it will not be a rebadge" before people actually believe it? Not to mention they have the MKS and MKT as proof.

[ANTAUS]

. And then there's products that no matter what they do, it'll still look like it's Ford mate, like the Navigator. You can only hide a box so much. The MKT did a good job on looking very different than it's Ford counterpart...but the new MKX still looks close to an Edge

[PREMiERdrum]

. And then there's products that no matter what they do, it'll still look like it's Ford mate, like the Navigator. You can only hide a box so much. The MKT did a good job on looking very different than it's Ford counterpart...but the new MKX still looks close to an Edge

 

That's because they still share the same greenhouse (much like the Fusion/Milan/MKZ), since this was just an MCE. Each new generation will see unique top hats and sheet metal between the Ford and Lincoln models.

 

That having been said, I do think that the new MKX and Edge look more differentiated from eachother than the 1st generations.

[akirby]

That's because they still share the same greenhouse (much like the Fusion/Milan/MKZ), since this was just an MCE. Each new generation will see unique top hats and sheet metal between the Ford and Lincoln models.

 

That having been said, I do think that the new MKX and Edge look more differentiated from eachother than the 1st generations.

 

Yes they do but they do still share the greenhouse and doors just like the Fusion and MKZ. That's just something that couldn't be avoided right now due to the added cost. But rest assured that the new models will get unique tophats, sheetmetal, interiors and engines. I don't know why people refuse to believe that.

[lincmerc51]

Cross-post from another thread:

Mercury is outselling Lincoln with fewer models. Yes, the Lincolns have higher margin so they might bring in the same or even a bit more in $$$s over time. But more customers is a good thing too. I've said I definitely will miss Mercury. But really Ford killed it years ago when they left it to wither. And aiming the product at women - eliminating 50% of potential customers right at the gate - was stupid. Just stupid. Especially considering Mercury's history. Your grandma's Merc was a much sportier and competitive car than what they've been selling lately. Mercury 'Sable'. Gimme a break. I want a Mercury Marauder. A Cougar Eliminator. A Cyclone GT. No, I can get a Sable or a Milan. Is there a powder-puff case in the console?

OK, back to the new millenium. I could be wrong. I often am. But I dont see the demise of Mercury as a good thing for anyone. First off, they haven't announced anything, but they'll be selling fewer cars, they'll have one less car line so it figures that some people, both on the line and in white collar positions, will lose their jobs over this. Then there are the LM dealers. Some will be bribed, others kicked to the curb, others will go from LM to FL. Is this a way to build a luxo brand? Team it with your bottom-feeder brand? How many Toyota-Lexus dealers do you see out there? I know from experience that the service you get when you bring your Lincoln to a FLM dealer like mine is crapppy. Big $$$ buyers are NOT going to put up with it. SO more money to service depts will be required. Mercury has a better 'quality' rating than Ford. SOme in here laugh at people who bring that up. Not a good attitude. Where do u think that perception comes from? My bet is a good measure is from taking the car to a service dept in a LM store, where they will be more attentive.

The sales figures tell the tale. Lincoln dealers will lose more than 50% of their sales right at the outset. The thought that this will be made up by sales of 'NEW' Lincoln vehicles is really grasping at straws. I mean seriously, how many MORE people are going to buy a $39,000 Lincoln Mariner than bought a $32,000 Mercury Mariner? Especially when there is the RX3X0 and RDX just for two competitive examples. Ford's recent redesigns have not exactly been home runs either. Volvo-based (the OLD volvo platform) and Mazda-based platform-sharing or badge-engineering, whatever you want to call it almost thruout the lines is the new way? Well, the Taurus (despite the name change which I thought was stupid) and the MKS (despite the letter name which I think is stupid) are selling very poorly. THough the Taurus is a nice, competitive vehicle, the MKS is only nice. It is not competitive in it'smarket, whatever that is (Buick? Chrysler? ...) The MKX has a worse than ave reliability AND dead last comparo results and they're removing the only design feature - the full-width tail lights - that I liked about the car. Even though I own 2 Lincolns and am positive about them, I advised my brother against a MKX. There are so many better vehicles in that segment. The MKT borders on ridiculous-looking. Do buyers agree with me? it's not selling well either. In fact, the Navigator outsells it, even in this economy. I just don't get it as to the target market for the MKT? Cant tow anything (much), can't put anyone besides double amputees in the third row. And the thing costs well over $50,000 when purchased as a Lincoln. It's square sibling the Flex isnt selling either. I predicted it wouldn't.

I just don't see how a customer walks into a FL showroom and picks a T over a Flex or an S over a Taurus when the content and price points are considered. Just putting a Lincoln badge on and raising the price 30% is not a winning strategy anymore.

I've got 2 Lincolns - an LS and a Navigator - in the driveway. We love them. They are seriously #1 quality vehicles based on our experience. Yet if and when we can afford another vehicle it almost certainly will not be a Lincoln - or any Ford product. Lincoln has nothing that interests me at this time. Mercury not for decades. THough as I've said, I was really hoping they had a modern COugar in the works - THAT would have been a vehicle that would have doubled at least, IMHO, traffic and maybe sales at LM showrooms. But that's not to be.

As my wife said just last night - our next car should be an Infiniti. The Lincolns do not measure up to what Infiniti is producing. The one advantage that Lincoln has right now is the twin turbo engine. But, you can put a twin turbo in a land yacht and it's still a land yacht. OK, the S isn't really THAT floaty, but it's no M45 or G37 or certainly even Lincoln LS when it comes to handling.

Another huge issue that will bite at Ford's competitiveness is the UAW. By them refusing to face reality NOW means that later will be worse. ANd when it costs Ford more than anyone else to build a car, they'll either sell fewer cars, make less money per car, or move all production outside the US.

OK, that's my uplifitng message for the week.

[lincmerc51]

TTAC isn't a Ford Fan site..at all.......but they like it.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-2010-lincoln-mks/

 

Edmunds doesn't like it.........(same 1 of 3 persons who has a Fusion floor mat "layer" problem?)

http://www.edmunds.com/lincoln/mks/2010/review.html

 

It's rated well, except for handling. It's not the most agile......but it's BIG and is heavy. Also fast and comfortable. And a techo delight.

 

Consumer Reports (sorry) doesn't like it. Motor Trend gives it 3 out of 5 stars.

[silvrsvt]

I just don't see how a customer walks into a FL showroom and picks a T over a Flex or an S over a Taurus when the content and price points are considered. Just putting a Lincoln badge on and raising the price 30% is not a winning strategy anymore.

 

Thats whats going to change with Mercury out of the way...not to mention Lincoln has slightly more snob appeal then Ford does. Lincoln does have its work cut out for them, but at the same time they seem to have decent products that can be improved upon over the next couple years that keep gaining traction with buyers.

 

Another huge issue that will bite at Ford's competitiveness is the UAW. By them refusing to face reality NOW means that later will be worse. ANd when it costs Ford more than anyone else to build a car, they'll either sell fewer cars, make less money per car, or move all production outside the US.

OK, that's my uplifitng message for the week.

 

Guess you haven't been paying attention, but the costs associated with UAW are nearly at par with Transplant workers.

[rmc523]

Team it with your bottom-feeder brand? How many Toyota-Lexus dealers do you see out there? I know from experience that the service you get when you bring your Lincoln to a FLM dealer like mine is crapppy. Big $$$ buyers are NOT going to put up with it. SO more money to service depts will be required. Mercury has a better 'quality' rating than Ford. SOme in here laugh at people who bring that up. Not a good attitude. Where do u think that perception comes from? My bet is a good measure is from taking the car to a service dept in a LM store, where they will be more attentive.

 

I do agree with you here about being unsure about the F-L dealer pairing and the showroom/service dept experience - we can only hope that the newly combined dealers will elevate to proper "Lincoln" levels.......and I hardly consider today's Ford a "bottom feeder" brand.

 

I mean seriously, how many MORE people are going to buy a $39,000 Lincoln Mariner than bought a $32,000 Mercury Mariner? Especially when there is the RX3X0 and RDX just for two competitive examples. Ford's recent redesigns have not exactly been home runs either. Volvo-based (the OLD volvo platform) and Mazda-based platform-sharing or badge-engineering, whatever you want to call it almost thruout the lines is the new way?

 

A Lincoln "Mariner" that will have more features and a better interior/exterior than the Mariner ever would've.

 

Which redesigns are you referring to? All the redesigns I can think of have been successful.

 

Well, the Taurus (despite the name change which I thought was stupid) and the MKS (despite the letter name which I think is stupid) are selling very poorly. THough the Taurus is a nice, competitive vehicle, the MKS is only nice. It is not competitive in it'smarket, whatever that is (Buick? Chrysler? ...)

 

Taurus is selling a ton better since the redesign....I see 2-3 minimum daily. As stated in another thread, it is only behind the 5-series and E-class in it's segment - yes it's ahead of the Infiniti M you're going crazy over.

 

The MKX has a worse than ave reliability AND dead last comparo results and they're removing the only design feature - the full-width tail lights - that I liked about the car.

 

Wow, so a 4 year old vehicle doesn't do well in a comparison? Gee that's unheard of! I will agree with you on the taillights.....that was a favorite of mine.

 

can't put anyone besides double amputees in the third row.

 

The MKT's problem in the 3rd row is not the legroom, but the headroom because of the exterior design/sloping roof.

 

I just don't see how a customer walks into a FL showroom and picks a T over a Flex or an S over a Taurus when the content and price points are considered.

 

The T and Flex offer completely different looks and feels - the buyer will chose which they prefer. Right now I'll give you the Taurus > MKS argument, as they are pretty similar - I'm sure that'll change with the S' redesign.

 

As my wife said just last night - our next car should be an Infiniti. The Lincolns do not measure up to what Infiniti is producing. The one advantage that Lincoln has right now is the twin turbo engine. But, you can put a twin turbo in a land yacht and it's still a land yacht. OK, the S isn't really THAT floaty, but it's no M45 or G37 or certainly even Lincoln LS when it comes to handling.

 

Don't measure up? Why? How? Lincoln is aimed at a different type of buyer than the Infiniti, so you can't say it's offerings "don't measure up" to another brand's when it's vehicles aren't geared toward the same selling points.

 

And as I stated before, MKS is outselling the M, so....

[lincmerc51]

Thats whats going to change with Mercury out of the way...not to mention Lincoln has slightly more snob appeal then Ford does. Lincoln does have its work cut out for them, but at the same time they seem to have decent products that can be improved upon over the next couple years that keep gaining traction with buyers.

 

 

I don't see how that changes. How much money is freed up with Mercury gone? I mean looking at what they've done to Merc over the last 5 to 10 years, it couldn't have cost much more than $8.00 in person-hour costs TOTAL over and above the Fords they're based on. Seriously, if they spent much money on these rebadged clones, then that alone is a huge problem. To say 'that will change...' is easy. To actually DO it in a time frame that the market will absorb is MUCH tougher. Lincoln is now rebadged mazdas and volvos. That's it. What EXACTLY are they going to do to change that? A rebadged Focus? They started down the road to a real Lincoln brand with the LS, and then GAVE UP. I'm sorry for my negative attitude, but I dont see any hope for this deal. I predict Ford will be just Ford in 10 years. They will not be able to 'remake' Lincoln. They dont have the imagination or even the historical knowledge of their 'own' brand to do it. When they dropped the recent 'Continental Concept', an absolute knockout design to base future Lincolns on, and went with this cow-catcher grille monstrousity and then renamed the cars after nonsensical letters to boot, I knew the end was near. They also lack the resources. And there will be fewer resources once this scrapping of Mercury is done.

I disagree that Lincoln has 'decent products...' Lincoln has nothing that is a segment leader, or even threatening to take that title. Yeah, the MKS is a nice car. But that's it. So many obvious faults (like the trunk and the price and the handling) that it's just not ever going to be a winner. Just what will a salesman do to move a customer from a Taurus to a MKS and pull an extra $15,000 out of their pockets? I just dont see it. The Taurus is a fine car for it's segment. The S puts a diff face on and raises the price. What else is there? THere's little to nothing that one can get in an S over the Taurus. Just WHAT is going to bring a luxo car buyer into a 90% Ford showroom? ANd then... Let's see, I can have this beautiful Ford for under $35,000 OR I can pay over $50,000 and get this Lincoln with a toothy grin and a tiny trunk opening and just about everything else is the same. Gee, I wonder what I should do?

 

 

Guess you haven't been paying attention, but the costs associated with UAW are nearly at par with Transplant workers.

 

Maybe I'm not? What do I have worng? Last I heard, the UAW had bowed to obama and government motors and italian government motors and taken big hits in compensation etc. thus reducing their costs of mfging a car.

OTOH, Ford asked the UAW to take a similar hit and the workers flipped em the bird. Resulting in Ford having the highest cost of anyone to build vehicles. What am I missing? Seriously.

[NickF1011]

Maybe I'm not? What do I have worng? Last I heard, the UAW had bowed to obama and government motors and italian government motors and taken big hits in compensation etc. thus reducing their costs of mfging a car.

OTOH, Ford asked the UAW to take a similar hit and the workers flipped em the bird. Resulting in Ford having the highest cost of anyone to build vehicles. What am I missing? Seriously.

 

You're missing that the difference between the different UAW agreements isn't very significant.

[lincmerc51]

I do agree with you here about being unsure about the F-L dealer pairing and the showroom/service dept experience - we can only hope that the newly combined dealers will elevate to proper "Lincoln" levels.......and I hardly consider today's Ford a "bottom feeder" brand.

 

 

 

A Lincoln "Mariner" that will have more features and a better interior/exterior than the Mariner ever would've.

 

Which redesigns are you referring to? All the redesigns I can think of have been successful.

 

 

 

Don't measure up? Why? How? Lincoln is aimed at a different type of buyer than the Infiniti, so you can't say it's offerings "don't measure up" to another brand's when it's vehicles aren't geared toward the same selling points.

 

And as I stated before, MKS is outselling the M, so....

 

Well, there's always Hope that F-L service will Change. (UGH)

 

The Escape is such a cheap and under performing vehicle for it's segment that an entirely new design is needed if you're going to make a Lincoln version which would compete in any way with what the others are offering. And I'm talking the platform, not the sheetmetal. THe Mariner is seriously as far as I can see that platform advancing. What else could Lincoln possibly add to that little thing to make it worth $40,000 or more? If this is going to be the new 'Shrek-mobile' they've been showing then all I have to say is "GOOD LUCK WITH THAT". If that's the future of Lincoln, I'm glad I'm moving into the Buick demographic now I mean seriously, almost exclusively young folks are buying the Elements and Scions and Cubes that this thing takes it's cue from. How in the h*ll does Ford think they're going to get these people to pay over $40,000 for something like this with a Lincoln badge? Especially when the average Lincoln owner is, well, we're a dying breed.

 

The Taurus redesign is good. I like the new Taurus. I might even drive a SHO, were one available with a manual transmission. The Fusion - yeah, it's a great new car as well. I drove the hybrid version and was impressed. Still, much too pricey for me these days. Doing very well. (No feather in the cap of the UAW though is it?) The rest? Meh. I never thought the Flex would sell and it isn't. THe T is just a more expensive, less useful, eye-straining version of the Flex. It's DOA IMO. The Navigator outsells it and probably always will, til the democrats force them to kill it. The Edge has never been competitive and the X is a typical rebadge of a non-competitive vehicle. Sure, it's 4 years old now. New one due out and it's just a facelift, right? That's going nowhere fast. Transit Connect? Very limited market. New F-150? Very nice, but again, Nancy Pelosi will kill it if she can. FInally the MKZ is better than it used to be. So it can beat it's former self up in a comparo. OTOH, up against a Lexus or Mercedes or BMW or Acura or infiniti or .... it just does not compete. Even the new Mazda 6 beats it I would think.

 

The S is outselling the M? I'll take your word. But what are the price points? THe M is a more expensive car isn't it? Here in California, I dont see too many Ms, but the only S I've ever seen is on the dealer lot.

 

Maybe we have a fundamental difference here in who the Lincoln target audience is? You say it's a different audience from Infiniti? I sortof agree, if only becasue Infiniti has actually built sport-luxury vehicles while Lincoln has only ever built one of those and they killed it with prejudice. So, if Lincoln is aiming at sport-luxury, they miss completely. Just luxury? OK, so who are it's competitors? I read within the last couple years that 'Lincoln no longer intends to compete with Cadillac. Rather, they are trying to build a better Buick.' I don't know if they're even doing that. WHO does Lincoln now compete with???

[NickF1011]

The Escape is such a cheap and under performing vehicle for it's segment that an entirely new design is needed if you're going to make a Lincoln version which would compete in any way with what the others are offering. And I'm talking the platform, not the sheetmetal.

 

While getting old, the Escape has been anything but under performing. It was the best-selling compact SUV in the country again in May. The Escape is due for a complete remodel in the next 18 months (2013 MY). No Lincoln version has been or would be planned prior to that.

 

The Edge has never been competitive and the X is a typical rebadge of a non-competitive vehicle. Sure, it's 4 years old now. New one due out and it's just a facelift, right? That's going nowhere fast.

 

What the hell are you even talking about here? The Edge has been amongst the top two or three best-selling midsize CUV's since its launch (it was also #1 in May).

Edited June 9, 2010 by NickF1011

[lincmerc51]

While getting old, the Escape has been anything but under performing. It was the best-selling compact SUV in the country again in May. The Escape is due for a complete remodel in the next 18 months (2013 MY). No Lincoln version has been or would be planned prior to that.

 

 

 

What the hell are you even talking about here? The Edge has been amongst the top two or three best-selling midsize CUV's since its launch (it was also #1 in May).

 

Did u edit to tone it down!?

 

Best selling is not equivalent to being a good competitive vehicle.

[suv_guy_19]

Best selling is not equivalent to being a good competitive vehicle.

 

And what makes it uncompetitive?

[NickF1011]

Did u edit to tone it down!?

 

Edited to expand it.

 

Best selling is not equivalent to being a good competitive vehicle.

 

Competitive powertrains, competitive features, competitive fuel economy, competitive interior volume. What exactly isn't "competitive"?

[Edstock]

Best selling is not equivalent to being a good competitive vehicle.

 

For a troll, you sure are funny! You'd look good in a Buick.