Kris Kolman Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Primary market... Its their only real market (yes I know they sell in the middle east but that doesn't count). Perhaps the isolation is the problem... Lack of a international market results in lack of imagination. And to suggest that Lincoln simply airdrop the NA market internationally doesn't seem wise. Its my belief that for Lincoln to make this move internationally successful they need to consider these markets in their entire product plan. The question is could a MK-CMax be part a valuable item in the international product line? I contend that when considering those markets just such a vehicle would make sense... And I go back to the examples out there from established luxury makes that Lincoln will be competing with. And would be a fairly easy vehicle to make happen due to significant parts sharing with the MK-Escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Primary market... Its their only real market (yes I know they sell in the middle east but that doesn't count). Perhaps the isolation is the problem... Lack of a international market results in lack of imagination. And to suggest that Lincoln simply airdrop the NA market internationally doesn't seem wise. Its my belief that for Lincoln to make this move internationally successful they need to consider these markets in their entire product plan. The question is could a MK-CMax be part a valuable item in the international product line? I contend that when considering those markets just such a vehicle would make sense... And I go back to the examples out there from established luxury makes that Lincoln will be competing with. And would be a fairly easy vehicle to make happen due to significant parts sharing with the MK-Escape. I have no problem with Lincoln offering a product like this, but at the same time, fix what you already have and will generate sales and profits so you can purse these markets. From my uninformed assumptions of the Chinese automarket...it seems like they are closer to NA expectations of Luxury cars vs small luxury cars that are becoming "popular" in Europe. Personally, I'd rather see Lincoln launch a MK-Escape, MK-Explorer, replace the MKS with a CD3+4 platform first, then worry about coming out with a compact based car with in the next 3-4 years. Pursing a compact and RWD sedan/coupe are the last things they should be doing at this point in time, because there is other "low-lying" fruit that is easier to pick and play to Ford's strengths in CUV/SUV dept. It makes no sense to purse whitespace products when your bread and butter products are suffering. There is only one somewhat successful Lincoln Product at this time and thats the MKX...I'm going to make a big assumption the MKZ will be a hit, but I have a feeling we are going to have the problem of people thinking its just a tarted up Fusion. The MKS and MKT are doing terrible after their refresh and need serious help, but I think the MKT sales should go up a decent amount with it filling in for the Black Taxi market...but not excactly the best way of growing Lincoln as a luxury brand IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 From my uninformed assumptions of the Chinese automarket...it seems like they are closer to NA expectations of Luxury cars vs small luxury cars that are becoming "popular" in Europe. . In the Chinese market, many buyers in the luxury segment are more concerned with back seat amenties than the drivers seat. So if Lincoln is going to try to be sucessful in that market, they will need to shift focus to that area. At least for that market. That is why many luxury cars marketed in China are long wheelbase variants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 It's not so much about Lincoln going downmarket, its more of a fact that Ford is going upmarket. And there hasn't been much differences in 'shared' products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) We also have to remember that Ford's plan for Lincoln has evolved since the start of development of the 2013 MKZ three to four years ago, I'm sure that in the depths of the financial crisis Ford would have been happy for MKZ to continue on as a reskinned variation of the global Fusion/Mondeo but in the last 18 months, Ford has now decided that more differentiation is needed via different top hats and Lincoln is now getting its own styling studio. Those decisions would result in all kinds of delays to product dlivery as Lincoln scrambles to develop the now necessary top hats for vehicles planned, maybe this is why Aviator hasn't arrived yet - it's arguably more important than a compact..... Edited October 4, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I personally don't want to see anymore of any MK anything. I'm getting tired of this alphanumeric naming of vehicles regardless of the make! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I personally don't want to see anymore of any MK anything. I'm getting tired of this alphanumeric naming of vehicles regardless of the make! I don't want to see any more hit an d miss with D3, Ford has shown thy can deliver an excellent Explorer and Taurus but the Lincoln variants are not quit there.IMO, MKS could or should be on the longer 117.9" wheelbase to make it more of a town car replacement and Aviator should replace that dreadful looking MKT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I don't want to see any more hit an d miss with D3, Ford has shown thy can deliver an excellent Explorer and Taurus but the Lincoln variants are not quit there. IMO, MKS could or should be on the longer 117.9" wheelbase to make it more of a town car replacement and Aviator should replace that dreadful looking MKT. I believe D3 is dead. I can foresee CD4+ plus replacing the Taurus and if the rumors are treu the MKS is moving to FRAP, it could bode well for a Lincoln RWD Architecture based on the next mustang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) I believe D3 is dead. I can foresee CD4+ plus replacing the Taurus and if the rumors are treu the MKS is moving to FRAP, it could bode well for a Lincoln RWD Architecture based on the next mustang. Work on bigger CD4 sedan has started but still around three years offas in it being a 2016 model delivered in 2015. Edited October 7, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Work on bigger CD4 sedan has started but still around three years off as in it being a 2016 model delivered in 2015. I guess MKS will have to limp along until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) I have no problem with Lincoln offering a product like this, but at the same time, fix what you already have and will generate sales and profits so you can purse these markets. I'm with you there... I would not put a compact MPV in the mold of the C-Max high on the list either. Was only countering that it would provide value... Not as high up on a compact Escape based SUV... For me I would put the lack of a legitimate large SUV as the most critical situation with Lincoln... A true SUV based off the Explorer to replace the MKT outright has to be number one on Lincoln's priority list right now. I would actually look at a single vehicle to replace both the MKT and the Navigator in the lineup as the days of a old-school half-ton luxury SUV seem in the past. Instead of continuing to chase the dwindling old-school sales with the Navigator an Explorer based MKT could rebrand the model to take on the Audi Q7, Infiniti JX, and Mercedes GL directly. I would let the black taxi market be served by a D3 based MKS... While I know many are wishing for a change in tact I worry about the business case for PI only D3 production. Seems to me there is too much production moving off the Chicago line and Ford is going to find itself quickly in a poor position just as it makes a large commitment to D3 thru the PI. Maybe a short and long wheelbase MKS should be retained to avoid that situation. A long wheelbase MKS could be a good black taxi and could have some traction in China. Edited October 9, 2012 by Kris Kolman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Not as high up on a compact Escape based SUV... For me I would put the lack of a legitimate large SUV as the most critical situation with Lincoln... A true SUV based off the Explorer to replace the MKT outright has to be number one on Lincoln's priority list right now. I would actually look at a single vehicle to replace both the MKT and the Navigator in the lineup as the days of a old-school half-ton luxury SUV seem in the past. The Navigator is a cheap product since most of its engineering is going to be shared with the Expedition and a lesser extent the F-150....it just needs different sheetmetal/interior...I'd like to see Lincoln do a Poor man's Range Rover Sport with the Navigator. I'd like to see Lincoln Explorer to replace the MKT also... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The Navigator is a cheap product since most of its engineering is going to be shared with the Expedition and a lesser extent the F-150....it just needs different sheetmetal/interior...I'd like to see Lincoln do a Poor man's Range Rover Sport with the Navigator. If a badge engineering job along the lines as the current Navigator, then yes it is cheep... But does that makes sense in the future Lincoln lineup. And if not do the economics support more extensive modifications? I too would love to see a Range Rover type vehicle in the Ford/Lincoln lineup, but I also see it as far away as a BMW 3-Series competitor. The Range Rover Sport is actually a midsized vehicle similar in size to the Grand Cherokee (based on a shrunken Discovery). The Navigator is a much larger vehicle and I don't see in the same mold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 If a badge engineering job along the lines as the current Navigator, then yes it is cheep... But does that makes sense in the future Lincoln lineup. And if not do the economics support more extensive modifications? I too would love to see a Range Rover type vehicle in the Ford/Lincoln lineup, but I also see it as far away as a BMW 3-Series competitor. The Range Rover Sport is actually a midsized vehicle similar in size to the Grand Cherokee (based on a shrunken Discovery). The Navigator is a much larger vehicle and I don't see in the same mold. I don't consider the current Navigator to be badge engineered - it has unique sheetmetal and interior. It does share doors and probably the greenhouse but that doesn't qualify as a rebadge. The first gen Fusion and Milan was badge engineering at it's finest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I too would love to see a Range Rover type vehicle in the Ford/Lincoln lineup, but I also see it as far away as a BMW 3-Series competitor. The Range Rover Sport is actually a midsized vehicle similar in size to the Grand Cherokee (based on a shrunken Discovery). The Navigator is a much larger vehicle and I don't see in the same mold. I'm thinking styling then size/performance. Heck the Explorer steals from RR in some of its design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I'm thinking styling then size/performance. Heck the Explorer steals from RR in some of its design. It will be interesting to see where Lincoln goes with the design language when it comes to SUVs. I haven't like the bow wave look when applied to the MKT... Too ponderous and will only get worse for the more upright MK-Explorer and Navigator. But then I really like the Aviator Concept and first look MKX with its 1961 Continental inspired design language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I would let the black taxi market be served by a D3 based MKS... While I know many are wishing for a change in tact I worry about the business case for PI only D3 production. Seems to me there is too much production moving off the Chicago line and Ford is going to find itself quickly in a poor position just as it makes a large commitment to D3 thru the PI. Maybe a short and long wheelbase MKS should be retained to avoid that situation. A long wheelbase MKS could be a good black taxi and could have some traction in China. What reason will the D3 continue production as a police/black car when the rest of the Ford line up moved-on?. The Panther's case was yes it was the same platform car for 30 years but it went though sevreal body changes over the years and the full-size famliy car market was significant when first introduced as well as the fleet market and less regulations and a diffrent corporate thinking thought the 80-90's. the D3 would just die in all forms around 2016 replaced by whatever Ford will have then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 What reason will the D3 continue production as a police/black car when the rest of the Ford line up moved-on?. The Panther's case was yes it was the same platform car for 30 years but it went though sevreal body changes over the years and the full-size famliy car market was significant when first introduced as well as the fleet market and less regulations and a diffrent corporate thinking thought the 80-90's. the D3 would just die in all forms around 2016 replaced by whatever Ford will have then. It probably depends on whether they keep Explorer on D3 or not. I don't think they would keep the PIs on D3 if it's the only one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 It probably depends on whether they keep Explorer on D3 or not. I don't think they would keep the PIs on D3 if it's the only one. Looking at the timing of things, I wouldn't expect D3 to completely go away till 2017 at the earliest. I'd expect the PI and PIU to be in production without in the much way of changes till at least 2017 or so. Would make sense to ride out the D3 for a while, then replace them with CD3+4 products or even maybe a new RWD program platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What reason will the D3 continue production as a police/black car when the rest of the Ford line up moved-on?. The Panther's case was yes it was the same platform car for 30 years but it went though sevreal body changes over the years and the full-size famliy car market was significant when first introduced as well as the fleet market and less regulations and a diffrent corporate thinking thought the 80-90's. the D3 would just die in all forms around 2016 replaced by whatever Ford will have then. Your showing a misunderstanding of the government customer. Agencies buying PIs are also buying a series of communications and computer equipment for each car. This equipment in some federal applications can be as expensive as the car itself. They also run their own maintenance shops and no doubt needed to invest into new equipment unique to the PI. These agencies aren't about buying the newest and coolest thing out there. For Ford to change a handful of years after they made such a investment you will see a lot of them dropping Ford the next go around. The government customer is a lot different different than you or I. When they invest in a certain direction they expect that company to support them for the long haul. Which means a far slower development cycle than the retail segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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