LAPD Police Vehicle Testing Results

[NickF1011]

So the Police Utility (Explorer) has 3.7 V6? This is the 2nd time we see published document from police agency saying so.

 

So why is the regular Explorer stuck with 3.5 V6? (by "stuck" I just mean different... not implying the 3.5 is inferior - seems weird that Ford would go to the trouble to engineer the 3.7 V6 for Explorer and not offer as option for civilian version)

 

If it is available in the PU, I'd expect it to make its way into the regular lineup too. Perhaps they are just waiting for production to settle down a little before throwing a Sport model into the mix.

[silvrsvt]

So the Police Utility (Explorer) has 3.7 V6? This is the 2nd time we see published document from police agency saying so.

 

So why is the regular Explorer stuck with 3.5 V6? (by "stuck" I just mean different... not implying the 3.5 is inferior - seems weird that Ford would go to the trouble to engineer the 3.7 V6 for Explorer and not offer as option for civilian version)

 

Ever give thought to the Lincoln "Aviator" :shades:

[jpd80]

So the Police Utility (Explorer) has 3.7 V6? This is the 2nd time we see published document from police agency saying so.

 

So why is the regular Explorer stuck with 3.5 V6? (by "stuck" I just mean different... not implying the 3.5 is inferior - seems weird that Ford would go to the trouble to engineer the 3.7 V6 for Explorer and not offer as option for civilian version)

 

I recall Ford saying that they wanted the performance and behavior of PI Ute and Interceptor to be as close

as possible to each other, a very important feature when you're trying to convince fleets to buy both vehicles....

 

Other than that, it puts the engineering out there for the Lincoln Aviator.....

Edited May 17, 2011 by jpd80

[Mark B. Morrow]

Unless the coachwork of the Charger has improved, I doubt that better fuel economy will convince those that have been burned by lousy build quality.

 

Burned indeed

[7Mary3]

Patrol out in an open area often will see speeds for a brief second or two of well more than 60 mph. Flip a u-turn to stop a drunk when they are traveling 50mph in the other direction and you are doing 45-50 and it becomes a necessity. You get fast braking, a hard turn, and then a quick acceleration. God forbid you have to avoid an obstacle and pull an evasive lane change in a FWD cruiser all while checking off with dispatch that you're pulling traffic and giving the vehicle info and location of the stop...yeah, FWD is really not ideal for a cruiser. Can you maneuver a car with FWD? Sure. However, they are not nearly as easy to do when hard on the gas as those tires are being asked to turn and continue applying power to the ground, both of which can easily overburden the available traction of the tires.

 

I can't wait to have the new ford PI on patrol. :shades:

 

Souds like this comes from someone who has been there, and done that. Regardless, I think the AWD PI is a contender. I am not sure about the FWD PI, though there are probably some departments that could use it. Mayberry, for instance...........

[Deanh]

Souds like this comes from someone who has been there, and done that. Regardless, I think the AWD PI is a contender. I am not sure about the FWD PI, though there are probably some departments that could use it. Mayberry, for instance...........

what I find humorous is the LA Sheriffs was involved EXTENSIVELY in the development of the Taurus PI....and I mean EXTENSIVELY!

Edited May 17, 2011 by Deanh

[7Mary3]

Because all police vehicles are used for pursuit, right?

 

Sure, most officers find out during briefing if they will be involved in a pursuit that day. Makes choosing a squad so much easier.................

[Deanh]

Sure, most officers find out during briefing if they will be involved in a pursuit that day. Makes choosing a squad so much easier.................

theres a crystal ball at the briefings now?....high tech indeed...

[RichardJensen]

Sure, most officers find out during briefing if they will be involved in a pursuit that day. Makes choosing a squad so much easier.................

If standardizing on RWD were such a priority, there would be NO PI Impala.

[7Mary3]

If standardizing on RWD were such a priority, there would be NO PI Impala.

 

Again, it is an issue for some departments. Tell me, how well did the Impala PI do against the CV PI sales wise? Or how about the old Taurus police car? The Intrepid?

[PREMiERdrum]

Again, it is an issue for some departments. Tell me, how well did the Impala PI do against the CV PI sales wise? Or how about the old Taurus police car? The Intrepid?

 

Did (does) the CVPI sell on its RWD setup alone, or on its reputation, overall merits, and availability of parts/ease of transition?

 

Those comparisons aren't valid because, unlike then, the CVPI won't be available when the Caprice, Police Interceptor, and Police Interceptor Utility come to market. It's not an option. Off the table. So, will departments chose the shoddily-assembled, thirsty, but fast RWD Dodge, the uncomfortable, RWD Chevy, or the FWD PI from the brand they've bought from for decades?

[RichardJensen]

Tell me, how well did the Impala PI do against the CV PI sales wise?

It did well enough.

[fordtech1]

These test were prototype vehicles correct?

 

That means to me that the regular NA 3.5 PI is tested with 263hp not the upgraded 290hp that will come in the next year.

 

Not that it will make a huge difference on numbers, but it should help.

[7Mary3]

Did (does) the CVPI sell on its RWD setup alone, or on its reputation, overall merits, and availability of parts/ease of transition?

 

Those comparisons aren't valid because, unlike then, the CVPI won't be available when the Caprice, Police Interceptor, and Police Interceptor Utility come to market. It's not an option. Off the table. So, will departments chose the shoddily-assembled, thirsty, but fast RWD Dodge, the uncomfortable, RWD Chevy, or the FWD PI from the brand they've bought from for decades?

 

Good points, but I think the CV PI's biggest advantage in the police car market was that it was the only available large RWD car for many years. The LASD favored Chevys most of the time (and in fact was largely responsible for the 1976 9C1 Nova) and bought Caprice's right up until the end in 1996. Not to say they didn't give other makes a chance, the Diplomat and the Fox platform LTD II were tried with generally poor results. When the old Caprice was available, the police car market was roughly 45% CV, 45% Caprice, and the rest Intrepid/Lumina/Mustang/Camaro. You couldn't really say the either the CV or Caprice had an advantage. As soon as the old Caprice was gone, Ford's police car share shot up to around 85%, which says to me the large RWD platform was more important than any sort of brand loyalty.

[goinbroke2]

And again everyone is picking flyshit out of the pepper.

 

If they all pass the minimum requirements, they will be on the list to purchase. The Statement of Work will have standards that have to be met. That said, the way the economy is going and the way mandates are being written, lowest price is most important and must be followed unless you have a DAMN good reason not to.

 

An example, we've bought CV's for EVER....but last year when they were due for replacement, the chargers were $8000 cheaper. We bought three. Then all the issues came up and we've been having nightmares ever since (rear door lock cables,ball joints, excessive accident damages etc) So, we needed three more this year. The fleet manager came to me and we talked for a bit.

We just purchased three new CV's and are expecting delivery in the next few weeks/month or so. :happy feet:

 

I won't go into all the issue's and why the price was $8000 cheaper, but here they learned their lesson so I wrote the SOW to reflect the better deal the CV was. In the end I negated $6500 of the $8000 and the remainder of the purchasing justification was based on the quality and familiararity of the CV's. All our lightbars/silent partners etc all fit. Radio trays, computor trays/cables etc all can be transfered instead of purchased.

 

I can see the merits of all the posts here, but this line "I'm pretty convinced Ford will be loosing most of this market to Chevy and Chrysler and will essentially assume the position formerly occupied by the Impala."

Now THAT is a keeper!

 

I'm sure that will be somebody's signiture in another 6 month's to a year from now!

[BORG]

And again everyone is picking flyshit out of the pepper.

 

If they all pass the minimum requirements, they will be on the list to purchase. The Statement of Work will have standards that have to be met. That said, the way the economy is going and the way mandates are being written, lowest price is most important and must be followed unless you have a DAMN good reason not to.

 

An example, we've bought CV's for EVER....but last year when they were due for replacement, the chargers were $8000 cheaper. We bought three. Then all the issues came up and we've been having nightmares ever since (rear door lock cables,ball joints, excessive accident damages etc) So, we needed three more this year. The fleet manager came to me and we talked for a bit.

We just purchased three new CV's and are expecting delivery in the next few weeks/month or so. :happy feet:

 

I won't go into all the issue's and why the price was $8000 cheaper, but here they learned their lesson so I wrote the SOW to reflect the better deal the CV was. In the end I negated $6500 of the $8000 and the remainder of the purchasing justification was based on the quality and familiararity of the CV's. All our lightbars/silent partners etc all fit. Radio trays, computor trays/cables etc all can be transfered instead of purchased.

 

I can see the merits of all the posts here, but this line "I'm pretty convinced Ford will be loosing most of this market to Chevy and Chrysler and will essentially assume the position formerly occupied by the Impala."

Now THAT is a keeper!

 

I'm sure that will be somebody's signiture in another 6 month's to a year from now!

 

Just make sure you quote me when you use that in your sig!

 

I certainly am hoping the Taurus and Explorer turn into the PI leaders, but the new Caprice is the closest to the CVPI and we know how loyal police agencies are to that car...it's seems hard to beat unless the price is ridiculous.

[silvrsvt]

I certainly am hoping the Taurus and Explorer turn into the PI leaders, but the new Caprice is the closest to the CVPI and we know how loyal police agencies are to that car...it's seems hard to beat unless the price is ridiculous.

 

I think the pricing will be similar to what the new PI will be, but what happens 3-5 years down the road when you need parts for it? Your going to be paying a big time premium on parts that need to be imported from the other side of the world.

 

Plus I haven't heard GM trumpeting any info about sales its made with the Caprice....either.

[PREMiERdrum]

Plus I haven't heard GM trumpeting any info about sales its made with the Caprice....either.

 

jpd can elaborate further, I'm sure, but the silence regarding the Caprice from GM has been deafening. Last I heard was no deliveries until January, and fleet managers haven't been given a firm date. There have also been no public large fleet commitments that we've heard of.

[BORG]

Neither the Caprice or Ford PI/UIs are available for purchase or preorder correct?

[7Mary3]

And again everyone is picking flyshit out of the pepper.

 

If they all pass the minimum requirements, they will be on the list to purchase. The Statement of Work will have standards that have to be met. That said, the way the economy is going and the way mandates are being written, lowest price is most important and must be followed unless you have a DAMN good reason not to.

 

An example, we've bought CV's for EVER....but last year when they were due for replacement, the chargers were $8000 cheaper. We bought three. Then all the issues came up and we've been having nightmares ever since (rear door lock cables,ball joints, excessive accident damages etc) So, we needed three more this year. The fleet manager came to me and we talked for a bit.

We just purchased three new CV's and are expecting delivery in the next few weeks/month or so. :happy feet:

 

I won't go into all the issue's and why the price was $8000 cheaper, but here they learned their lesson so I wrote the SOW to reflect the better deal the CV was. In the end I negated $6500 of the $8000 and the remainder of the purchasing justification was based on the quality and familiararity of the CV's. All our lightbars/silent partners etc all fit. Radio trays, computor trays/cables etc all can be transfered instead of purchased.

 

I can see the merits of all the posts here, but this line "I'm pretty convinced Ford will be loosing most of this market to Chevy and Chrysler and will essentially assume the position formerly occupied by the Impala."

Now THAT is a keeper!

 

I'm sure that will be somebody's signiture in another 6 month's to a year from now!

 

Wow, someone with some fleet vehicle spec. writing experience! Never ceases to amaze me how many REAL experts lurk around here. Anyway, absolutely true, particularly with municipal fleets. You write your spec., you test the vehicles, and cheapest one usually wins. In a private fleet, you usually have the luxury to say "I don't want to buy that one because it's a POS, case closed". However, in a municipal fleet you have to justify buying a more expensive vehicle. In this case, that's what happened. The Charger's excess operating costs and the savings of using some existing equipment in the new CVPI's justified the purchase of the more expensive Ford. BUT, note that they had to try the Charger to get the hard data to be able to say it indeed had higher operating costs. So, the two ways a municipal fleet can pick what police car they want to buy is to get creative with the spec. and/or try the one they don't want and *hope* it has problems. Case in point at one time the LASD didn't want any Diplomats or Gran Furys because of front suspension trouble they were experiencing with those cars. So, next purchasing go-around they actually wrote into the spec. that cars with transverse torsion bar front suspension would be ineligible to bid. A place I worked at wanted only GMC and Ford medium duty trucks, no Internationals. They wrote a spec. that required a gasoline engine of between 425 and 430 cubic inches. GMC had a 427, Ford had a 429. International only had a 404 and a 446, so they were disqualified!

[7Mary3]

jpd can elaborate further, I'm sure, but the silence regarding the Caprice from GM has been deafening. Last I heard was no deliveries until January, and fleet managers haven't been given a firm date. There have also been no public large fleet commitments that we've heard of.

 

There won't be any commitments until there are enough examples provided for testing. LASD is one of the first to do comprehesive testing on the Caprice, and the Ford PI too for that matter. You will start to see significant orders after the Michigan State Police and California Highway Patrol conduct their testing. Those two agencies are considered the 'standard' in police car testing.

[lfeg]

As to purchasing, in most county and municipal settings, the budget director, fiscal officer, or whatever the position is called has as much input as the police dept. From my experience (admittedly limited in this area) initial purchase price is only one part of the equation. The cost to keep a unit available for use is almost as important.

The cities I am familiar with love the CV because the cost to keep them available is so predictable. That comes from years with very little change. That is another reason the Impala is popular in some areas, very predictable costs. This factor will be a hinderance in the acceptance of both the new Ford PI & PU and the Chevy Caprice - no experience.

 

Another interesting point is that with the CV, I know of several cities that purchase extended service plans (often up to 100K miles) that cover routine maintenance and some wear parts on the CVs they purchase. One budget director told me that they prefer to pay for the ESP up front, that way there are fewer variable costs and surprises over the life of the car. He told me that over the last 7 or so years that saved them quite a bit on the transmission work their CVs needed. Maybe that is something that will help some places accept something different a little easier.

[jpd80]

Neither the Caprice or Ford PI/UIs are available for purchase or preorder correct?

First deliveries of Caprice were sent April but these were mainly detective models,

Holden are remaining very guarded about the number of sales to US PDs,

my guess is that they are struggling to convert interest into orders.....

Edited May 20, 2011 by jpd80

[7Mary3]

As to purchasing, in most county and municipal settings, the budget director, fiscal officer, or whatever the position is called has as much input as the police dept. From my experience (admittedly limited in this area) initial purchase price is only one part of the equation. The cost to keep a unit available for use is almost as important.

The cities I am familiar with love the CV because the cost to keep them available is so predictable. That comes from years with very little change. That is another reason the Impala is popular in some areas, very predictable costs. This factor will be a hinderance in the acceptance of both the new Ford PI & PU and the Chevy Caprice - no experience.

 

Another interesting point is that with the CV, I know of several cities that purchase extended service plans (often up to 100K miles) that cover routine maintenance and some wear parts on the CVs they purchase. One budget director told me that they prefer to pay for the ESP up front, that way there are fewer variable costs and surprises over the life of the car. He told me that over the last 7 or so years that saved them quite a bit on the transmission work their CVs needed. Maybe that is something that will help some places accept something different a little easier.

 

True on both points. I know of a fire department that was having nothing but problems with some 6.0L Powerstroke powered E-350 cutaway ambulances. Ford offered to extend the warranty and threw in an ESP at a very attractive price. The department decided to purchase more of the E-350's because with the warranty and ESP, the costs of that vehicle became predictable.

[blazerdude20]

maybe i'm missing something here? the PI, caprice, charger all handle well enough for standard police work. for a high speed pursuit it could be different. BUT aren't most agencies moving towards a no pursuit mentality? the possible costs to life, and money, out weigh the advantages since they can pick the perp up down the road.

 

imo it will be the charger vs PI. the caprice is going to cost more to buy, unless gm is seriously subsidizing, and more to maintain since the parts are sourced from Australia.