aneekr Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Not so sure about the MPG statement in todays cars.. I'm in agreement with timmm55's assertion that manual tranny vehicles get better real world fuel economy than their AT counterparts, regardless of the respective EPA ratings (assuming the driver knows how to operate a manual transmission properly). Consumer Reports has found this to be the case, as a general rule. CR's fuel consumption test protocol is in many ways more conducive to real world figures than EPA's, even taking into account the US06, SC03, and Cold FTP test cycle fuel economy measurements incorporated in the 2008 revisions. I've had no trouble exceeding the EPA combined fuel economy figure for my 6-speed manual 2010 Ford Fusion without using hypermiling techniques. Click the Fuelly image in my signature for details. Edited May 16, 2012 by aneekr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Another thing to consider is that if you only have one car it probably should be an automatic. I work in a job where a broken bone is very possible and if you have a broken arm or leg, driving a manual car safely becomes a problem. I've been in a situation where I've had my hand in a cast (karate mishap) and couldn't drive my car. From that point on I've always bought automatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 I can't imagine ripping up twisties without a manual. Just as Buyer says above, the feedback from the vehicle is awesome, and you feel more in-tune. Even my little old 89 CRXsi would be a completely different driving experience with an automatic. Can you guys imagine an automatic-only Mustang? Or off-roading in an automatic? No way. I had an opportunity to chase an old 944 Porshe through Mulholland Drive and down into the canyons driving my friends modded S2000. I'll never forget that driving experience (even if the guy did smoke me). I can't stand paddle-shifters and slushbox manumatics either. I have driven them on 3-series BMW's and up to the S-class Mercedes (and a horrifying experience in a 1st-gen Chrysler 300M) and I still don't care for them. Thank God for motorcycles if they are going to take away my manuals in cars. There is a growing controversy about manual vs. auto on sporty cars in the Car and Driver community, and also the Porsche community. Lots of Porsche guys are swearing they will never buy another Porsche if they do the unthinkable and end the manual. As it is, it's not available on the Cayenne and Panamera. And PDK numbers are going up on both the 911 and Cayman/Boxster. Car and Driver is running a campaign now to try to save the manual. My opinon is that it will survive at least short term on sporty cars, but there will be no comeback on non sporting cars and trucks. Thank god for used vehicles. With modern internet sites, you can always find the era and options you like anywhere in country. And make a vacation trip out of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I'm in agreement with timmm55's assertion that manual tranny vehicles get better real world fuel economy than their AT counterparts, regardless of the respective EPA ratings (assuming the driver knows how to operate a manual transmission properly). I don't disagree but most shoppers are just going by the window sticker/EPA figures and there is nothing there that would encourage them to buy a manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I don't disagree but most shoppers are just going by the window sticker/EPA figures and there is nothing there that would encourage them to buy a manual. In Canada an automatic transmission is a $1,000 option, minimum, over a manual. That's a cost saving of between 3% to 6% on the cost of buying a new Focus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 IMO, there will ALWAYS be a certain number of drivers that prefer a manual on their daily driver, and most certainly on a second weekend, enthusiast car like myself. Now what that percentage will be is open to speculation, but it will ALWAYS be there. If new vehicle manufacturers can't meet that percenage, then used vehicle market will pick up the slack. Lots of these sporting cars are basically being treasured for future generations anyway to discover. Lots of these guys have sons and daughters that right now may not care about Dad's hobby, but someday they will discover it and desire those vehicles. There are lots or real young guys in the PCA and they are just as passionate about sports cars as their father. For that mattter, I even see some youngish females racing at PCA events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT-Keith Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) You're really not more "in tune" with a manual transmission, though. What you're actually controlling is a very small portion of the drivetrain that's largely controlled by electronics. With automatics, this is just one notch higher in terms of automation. Even modern manual transmissions come with rev matching, skip shift functions, anti-stall, hill start functions, and no-lift functions, etc. Manual transmissions are more automated than ever before. I do prefer automatics such as the 8-speeds found in the 2012 3 series, Lexus LS460, Audi A7, and the DCT found in the GTR and Audi's lineup. In particular, the new 8-speed torque converter automatics offer faster and more accurate shifts than manual trannys today. With a forward gears, the transmission control unit can keep the gear in the engines power band Funny because in the real world manuals still get better gas mileage in spite of the EPA figures. And less than 10% are into "driving please"? Plus the base economy cars? You think maybe, just maybe economy drives might actually like the "driving pleasure"? Manuals are still cheaper, initially and in the long run. I'm sure you have proof? Edited May 16, 2012 by GT-Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Even modern manual transmissions come with rev matching, skip shift functions, anti-stall, hill start functions, and no-lift functions, etc. Manual transmissions are more automated than ever before. Are you referring to automated manual transmissions like Ford's DCT or Porsche's PDK? Among passenger cars sold in the U.S. market with a traditional manual transmission (i.e., human actuated shifting and clutch operation), only hill start assist is even close to being a common feature. Rev matching, skip shift, anti-stall, and no-lift (aka power shifting) functions are all performed by the driver with vehicles that use traditional manual transmissions. I do believe certain versions of the Nissan 370Z have the only application of automatic rev matching (with MT), and only a couple GM vehicles have provisions to assist with no-lift shifting. I'm sure you have proof? The October 2008 issue of Consumer Reports has a mini article about real world fuel economy and performance comparisons between MT and AT versions of specific cars. Edited May 16, 2012 by aneekr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I don't disagree but most shoppers are just going by the window sticker/EPA figures and there is nothing there that would encourage them to buy a manual. the manual Fiesta I have is consistantly 3 mpgs better than the Auto...AND its driven harder..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 the manual Fiesta I have is consistantly 3 mpgs better than the Auto...AND its driven harder..... :shades: Interestingly enough, the Fiesta is one of the few models in which Consumer Reports got better mileage with the auto (DCT in this case) than the manual. 33 mpg overall in a non-SFE SE sedan 6AT, and 32 mpg overall in a SES hatchback 5MT. Maybe the more spiritedly the MT Fiesta is driven, the better it does in fuel efficiency compared to the AT. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 the manual Fiesta I have is consistantly 3 mpgs better than the Auto...AND its driven harder..... Do prospective Fiesta buyers look at the window sticker and compare MPG or do they say "I know I can get 3 mpg more in the manual regardless of what the EPA sticker says"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 You're really not more "in tune" with a manual transmission, though. What you're actually controlling is a very small portion of the drivetrain that's largely controlled by electronics. With automatics, this is just one notch higher in terms of automation. Even modern manual transmissions come with rev matching, skip shift functions, anti-stall, hill start functions, and no-lift functions, etc. Manual transmissions are more automated than ever before. I do prefer automatics such as the 8-speeds found in the 2012 3 series, Lexus LS460, Audi A7, and the DCT found in the GTR and Audi's lineup. In particular, the new 8-speed torque converter automatics offer faster and more accurate shifts than manual trannys today. With a forward gears, the transmission control unit can keep the gear in the engines power band I'm sure you have proof? How much does that 8 speed transmission cost to repair/replace when something goes wrong? $8-10k isn't uncommon for complex auto trannies. I'll stick with my 6-speed manual. No worries about overheating the fluid, harsh/surging shifts, hunting for gears, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 :shades: Interestingly enough, the Fiesta is one of the few models in which Consumer Reports got better mileage with the auto (DCT in this case) than the manual. 33 mpg overall in a non-SFE SE sedan 6AT, and 32 mpg overall in a SES hatchback 5MT. Maybe the more spiritedly the MT Fiesta is driven, the better it does in fuel efficiency compared to the AT. :lol: and I average 36 pretty much no matter what, and shes definitely NOT babied... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Do prospective Fiesta buyers look at the window sticker and compare MPG or do they say "I know I can get 3 mpg more in the manual regardless of what the EPA sticker says"? people look at the sticker for obvious reasons, however, in my own experience, and Ive had and driven both, car for car manuals always seem to do better, i have my thoughts on why, part of it may be the way i drive, dont rightfully know...LOVE the manuals though, alwways have, just more involving and fun as far as im concerned, mileage is just a bonus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 people look at the sticker for obvious reasons, I'm not debating the appeal of manuals for folks who enjoy manuals. I'm just saying that people don't usually buy manuals to get better fuel economy because the EPA ratings no longer favor manuals like they used to and that's what most buyers will go by unless they already know they can do better with a manual, in which case they're probably already decided to buy one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT-Keith Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 How much does that 8 speed transmission cost to repair/replace when something goes wrong? $8-10k isn't uncommon for complex auto trannies. I'll stick with my 6-speed manual. No worries about overheating the fluid, harsh/surging shifts, hunting for gears, etc. It really depends on the extent of the damage. I recently had my automatic transmission rebuilt in my 1997 Honda at the cost of $2200. The shop I took it to had a 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 with a repair bill of $6700(owned by a teenager who liked mudding). Transmissions breaking is just an ad hoc response as all that most people get is an engine oil change, completely neglecting the fact that other components need oil as well, or need to be cleaned/serviced. My mother put 90k miles on a 2005 Explorer, which already had 55k miles on it, without ever changing the transmission fluid. At 140k miles, the transmission was toast. You could make the argument that since ATs are a closed system, thus less prone to human error, that its actually more reliable. I will concede the point to you that, when AT breaks, it really breaks and you're out thousands of dollars provided you lack a warranty, but Man/Auto transmissions don't break easily, especially those with in-built cooling. Also, since when have manual clutches cost $1300 to replace? I was thinking more along the lines of $250. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I like manuals that have a nice slick shift but also like good automatic transmissions like ZF (they make GM's mushbox look like an antique.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I'm not debating the appeal of manuals for folks who enjoy manuals. I'm just saying that people don't usually buy manuals to get better fuel economy because the EPA ratings no longer favor manuals like they used to and that's what most buyers will go by unless they already know they can do better with a manual, in which case they're probably already decided to buy one. maybe, and understand your point of veiw...but I would say a majority buy Autos because they wouldnt have the first clue on how to drive a stick in the first place.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versa-Tech Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Hell, those of us who prefer them are probably fortunate they haven't said that manual trannies promote distracted driving as much as cellphones. (even though I'd say the opposite is true; a manual makes you focus more) I tend to agree with you. However, only concerning manuals versus automatics. Paddle actuated semi autos offer higher levels of awareness and faster response over either. This isn't so much of an opinion as it is scientific fact. I've seen numerous tests between average, skilled and professional drivers between manuals and semis and semis win out decisively in every catagory, most notably when fatigue sets in. Edited May 16, 2012 by Versa-Tech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I would say those driving a stick would have less propensity to text etc because they are FORCED to concentrate on driving more..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 At least we in Australia can still order manual transmission versions of I-6 turbo and V8 S/C 5.0 Falcon... Sucks to be on the other side of the planet hey....LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versa-Tech Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I would say those driving a stick would have less propensity to text etc because they are FORCED to concentrate on driving more..... Texting while driving will be illegal anyway. New hands off laws will go into effect soon, with a no tolerance policy that mandates the same treatment of intentional distracted drivers as anebriated drivers. That's right, if you are driving wrecklessly distracted with a cell phone within reach, you will be arrested amd charged with a felony. Your car and phone will be impounded as well. For repeat offenders, prison time is likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I tend to agree with you. However, only concerning manuals versus automatics. Paddle actuated semi autos offer higher levels of awareness and faster response over either. This isn't so much of an opinion as it is scientific fact. I've seen numerous tests between average, skilled and professional drivers between manuals and semis and semis win out decisively in every catagory, most notably when fatigue sets in. and yet in a majority of surveys given paddles most just left the trans in D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Texting while driving will be illegal anyway. New hands off laws will go into effect soon, with a no tolerance policy that mandates the same treatment of intentional distracted drivers as anebriated drivers. That's right, if you are driving wrecklessly distracted with a cell phone within reach, you will be arrested amd charged with a felony. Your car and phone will be impounded as well. For repeat offenders, prison time is likely. a good START, but based on experience wont stop many, but will generate $ for local counties and the like.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 I tend to agree with you. However, only concerning manuals versus automatics. Paddle actuated semi autos offer higher levels of awareness and faster response over either. This isn't so much of an opinion as it is scientific fact. I've seen numerous tests between average, skilled and professional drivers between manuals and semis and semis win out decisively in every catagory, most notably when fatigue sets in. On very competitve full out race cars, paddle semi auto trans are the way to go and do result in better lap times all other things equal. You can keep both hands on wheel and don't have to worry about missing shifts as racing a car on track takes unbelievable concentration. There are also sequential shifters with clutch and auto blipper meaning you don't have to lift slightly when shifting and you only clutch when you downshift. Upshifting is clutchless. So if you stay with conventional manual, you will get killed in your class if most everyone else is using the latest technology assuming all other variables are equal. For driving on public roads and doing ocassional autocross or DE event, I prefer conventional manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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