Ford’s Lincoln luxury sales sputter even after Super Bowl ads

[rmc523]

I don't know. Only MKZ I've seen on the road jumped out at me visually going the opposite direction in rush hour traffic on the interstate. I'd say it had plenty of presence.

 

I'd have to agree - I've seen 2 on the road - the first I wasn't really paying attention to the cars driving by while at a red light and this dark gray vehicle caught my eye, and to my surprise it was a new MKZ, and I thought it looked fantastic. The second one I saw at night coming the opposite direction down the road, what made me notice it was the accent lights where the fog lights would be - couldn't quite tell what it was (haven't seen enough of it with the lights on), but then as it passed saw it was an MKZ.

 

I think short it being on fire, Borg wouldn't be impressed....

 

Cue disclaimer - "'Phoenix' flames showed in the LMC ad are not real, do not attempt."

[Deanh]

Not really....I've been in a 7 series taxi in Germany

 

Prob the nicest Cab I've ever been in though lol...but not impressed with its vinyl seats etc....

funny, Greece was the same, taxis are all mercedes....

[BORG]

? Z could be any MORE different than the Fusion side by side, is the Fusion avail with the 3.7?...sure its avail with the 2.0 eco, but go ahead poo poo that then call Land Rover, because they MUST also have Ford roots if they have the same drivetrain right?....

 

The same 3.7 in a Mustang, F-150 and Ford Edge of course (not to mention in Ford cop cars). And what if the Fusion ST gets the 3.7, does that change things?

 

And we can debate how different they look, but you can see the Fusion at the base of it, even the forward portion of the greenhouse obviously belongs to the Fusion since it's quite unique to the car. The MKZ actually shares more with the Ford than the MKS or MKT, so did we step backwards or does it even matter?

 

But that's not the big issue, it's the fact that they have a virtually untouched Fusion underpinning it. Now I understand Lincoln is not appealing to fickle customers who care about these things, but how do you come to respect Lincoln as a distinctive brand when the differentiation is so superficial to the point they are fooling the customer? Should we just applaud Ford for their business acumen rather than making a respectable Lincoln?

[Deanh]

The same 3.7 in a Mustang, F-150 and Ford Edge of course (not to mention in Ford cop cars). And what if the Fusion ST gets the 3.7, does that change things?

 

And we can debate how different they look, but you can see the Fusion at the base of it, even the forward portion of the greenhouse obviously belongs to the Fusion since it's quite unique to the car. The MKZ actually shares more with the Ford than the MKS or MKT, so did we step backwards or does it even matter?

 

But that's not the big issue, it's the fact that they have a virtually untouched Fusion underpinning it. Now I understand Lincoln is not appealing to fickle customers who care about these things, but how do you come to respect Lincoln as a distinctive brand when the differentiation is so superficial to the point they are fooling the customer? Should we just applaud Ford for their business acumen rather than making a respectable Lincoln?

Fusion St will be getting a hell of a lot more than 305 hp.....think 350 or so, if not Im seriously dis-appointed, and I doubt I will be, it NEEDS to have better #s than the SHO......( 2.3 eco maybe, 2.7 nano maybe ) so if its drivetrains you are stuck on why did you give Audi a free pass, last i looked that 2.0 has done the rounds a few times....Z looks NOTHING like the Fusion and to say so borders on nit picking, 99% wouldnt even know they are even remotely related if parked side by side, and seriously, who REALLY cares whats under the Emperors new clothes..if its a good drivetrain, its a good drivetrain..segue back to my Audi comment and mention of Landrover....

[akirby]

But that's not the big issue, it's the fact that they have a virtually untouched Fusion underpinning it. Now I understand Lincoln is not appealing to fickle customers who care about these things, but how do you come to respect Lincoln as a distinctive brand when the differentiation is so superficial to the point they are fooling the customer?

 

You keep ignoring this question: how does Lexus get away with it? And don't say it's because they have other bespoke platforms because the people buying an ES or RX don't give a rats behind what platform the GS, LS and IS ride on.

[Deanh]

You keep ignoring this question: how does Lexus get away with it? And don't say it's because they have other bespoke platforms because the people buying an ES or RX don't give a rats behind what platform the GS, LS and IS ride on.

And, IMO thats just plain smart, spreads the costs raises profitability and with fewer drivetrains increases dependability due to higher overall quality....remember when Fords stable included Aston, Jaguar, Volvo, Mazda and Landrover, truth is Ford was spread too thin, and this was slowly getting streamlined ( ie, versions of Ford engines in the Jag and LR ) and guess what...their "issues" declined significantly...now they dont have distractions and can concentrate their expertise solely on their core product, and I dont think, per Borgs wish list, seperate, entirely different, seperately developed drivetrains are the answer...concentrate on the core and refine it constantly...its worked REAL well for Lexus/ Toyota....

[2b2]

...And what if the Fusion ST gets the 3.7, does that change things?

that's why the Fusion ST is waiting for...

...because they MUST also have Ford roots if they have the same drivetrain right?....

many new engines coming which could be divvied-up for increased differentiation

new 2.3 4cyl

-- EB in the Fusion ST

-- possible Atkinson in MKZ-Hybrid

1.5 3cyl, mainly for Fords

gen2 1.6 4cyl, mostly for Lincolns (might also get a bit larger, plasma-coat?)

and of course

the NANO(s), 2.7 or 2.9 could be split by Brand, & Either could provide an EB for Every Lincoln

 

add in the 8(?) speed transmission and Lincoln Drive Control Std on every Lincoln

= Ta-Da!

 

 

...Cue disclaimer - "'Phoenix' flames showed in the LMC ad are not real, do not attempt."

&

shucks

[FordBuyer]

The same 3.7 in a Mustang, F-150 and Ford Edge of course (not to mention in Ford cop cars). And what if the Fusion ST gets the 3.7, does that change things?

 

And we can debate how different they look, but you can see the Fusion at the base of it, even the forward portion of the greenhouse obviously belongs to the Fusion since it's quite unique to the car. The MKZ actually shares more with the Ford than the MKS or MKT, so did we step backwards or does it even matter?

 

But that's not the big issue, it's the fact that they have a virtually untouched Fusion underpinning it. Now I understand Lincoln is not appealing to fickle customers who care about these things, but how do you come to respect Lincoln as a distinctive brand when the differentiation is so superficial to the point they are fooling the customer? Should we just applaud Ford for their business acumen rather than making a respectable Lincoln?

 

I believe your expectations for Lincoln are much greater than Ford's. They are spending about $1 billion over four years to upgrade the dealership experience and Ford plaforms with same drivetrains. I don't know about you, but I don't expect a hell of a lot, and if Ford can disguise the Ford underneath a lot better which is doable, then they will sell 125,000-150,000 Lincolns/year and be happy. I guess you could call that successful in that Cadillac spent a lot lot more and doesn't sell much more than 130,000/year. Also Ford faces vexing problem of making the Fusion so nice and gave it so much road presence that it made it hard to satisfy the increased expecations of influential road testers reviewing the MKZ. Better though to make the Ford brand so desirable since it's the bread winner and high volume player even it it makes Lincoln's job that more difficult.

[Deanh]

I believe your expectations for Lincoln are much greater than Ford's. They are spending about $1 billion over four years to upgrade the dealership experience and Ford plaforms with same drivetrains. I don't know about you, but I don't expect a hell of a lot, and if Ford can disguise the Ford underneath a lot better which is doable, then they will sell 125,000-150,000 Lincolns/year and be happy. I guess you could call that successful in that Cadillac spent a lot lot more and doesn't sell much more than 130,000/year. Also Ford faces vexing problem of making the Fusion so nice and gave it so much road presence that it made it hard to satisfy the increased expecations of influential road testers reviewing the MKZ. Better though to make the Ford brand so desirable since it's the bread winner and high volume player even it it makes Lincoln's job that more difficult.

what I find amusing is the seeming dis-dain for Ford Platforms....time to study up people, they are currently world class, so stop looking down judgemental noses....

[BORG]

what I find amusing is the seeming dis-dain for Ford Platforms....time to study up people, they are currently world class, so stop looking down judgemental noses....

Ford makes consistently good hardware, but so does everybody else. The playing field is extremely level now, it's hard to standout, especially to the consumer. There isn't much disruption in the marketplace, everybody copies each other.

 

The real divergence is apparent in the luxury car segments were there is a very wide variety of capabilities falling under similar pricing. Each one tries to earn their customers money differently.

Edited March 4, 2013 by BORG

[Deanh]

Ford makes consistently good hardware, but so does everybody else. The playing field is extremely level now, it's hard to standout, especially to the consumer.

exhibit A) the Mk Z looks like nothing else on the road......

[BORG]

exhibit A) the Mk Z looks like nothing else on the road......

 

The interior is more innovative than the exterior, nothing quite like the MKZ on the inside. The outside is more familiar territory.

Edited March 4, 2013 by BORG

[NickF1011]

Nah, the MKZ exterior is not that unique, but the interior is innovative.

 

By that standard, very few cars on the road at all are in any way unique. Yes, it's still a 3-box sedan, but so is the Audi S8 or Cadillac CTS or BMW 7-series.

[Deanh]

The interior is more innovative than the exterior, nothing quite like the MKZ on the inside. The outside is more familiar territory.

made my head turn when i saw it, irrespective of me knowing what it was...sidebar, was riding behind a brand new Aston ZAGATO this morning with dealer plates on it....wild looking car....

Edited March 4, 2013 by Deanh

[BORG]

By that standard, very few cars on the road at all are in any way unique. Yes, it's still a 3-box sedan, but so is the Audi S8 or Cadillac CTS or BMW 7-series.

 

There are a few cars that come along and break the mold momentarily and set the stage for popular design trends to come, such as the the Taurus, Lexus RX, CLS, Sonata/Optima, Evoque, but the MKZ isn't one of those designs. It's a well done derivative of a design breakthrough ushered in by the Sonata, which then inspired the Fusion the MKZ is built on.

Edited March 4, 2013 by BORG

[silvrsvt]

There are a few cars that come along and break the mold momentarily and set the stage for popular design trends to come, such as the the Taurus, Lexus RX, CLS, Sonata/Optima, Evoque, but the MKZ isn't one of those designs. It's a well done derivative of a design breakthrough ushered in by the Sonata, which then inspired the Fusion the MKZ is built on.

 

Seriously? The RX just set the framework for a successful CUV, not the styling direction. Sonata/Optima...over-styled and if anything influenced by the CLS and def not a design breakthrough like the 1986 Taurus... the Evoque is just a grossly over styled 3 box CUV

[BORG]

Seriously? The RX just set the framework for a successful CUV, not the styling direction. Sonata/Optima...over-styled and if anything influenced by the CLS and def not a design breakthrough like the 1986 Taurus... the Evoque is just a grossly over styled 3 box CUV

Every CUV today, including every Ford Crossover and SUV outside of the Flex looks the way it does because of the RX. It is the most influential design of the modern era. The Sonata is the first car to sustainably innovate beyond the '86 Taurus (the 1996 Taurus and 2nd-gen LH cars tried), and indeed it's probably inspired by the CLS...but the Taurus was inspired by an Audi as well...so why is the Taurus celebrated? Because it's a car that changed popular design. The Sonata, like the CLS, is among the first to break the 3-box design mold which is the big achievement here and what the MKZ aims to do as well.

Edited March 4, 2013 by BORG

[Deanh]

Seriously? The RX just set the framework for a successful CUV, not the styling direction. Sonata/Optima...over-styled and if anything influenced by the CLS and def not a design breakthrough like the 1986 Taurus... the Evoque is just a grossly over styled 3 box CUV

have to agree on the Evoque...everytime I see one I just dont get it, its like a cartoon....I hear the drivetrain rocks though...lol

[twmalonehunter]

There are a few cars that come along and break the mold momentarily and set the stage for popular design trends to come, such as the the Taurus, Lexus RX, CLS, Sonata/Optima, Evoque, but the MKZ isn't one of those designs. It's a well done derivative of a design breakthrough ushered in by the Sonata, which then inspired the Fusion the MKZ is built on.

 

Borg, sometimes you just need to quit talking so as to maintain some semblence of credibility. The Sonata was hardly a breakthrough design. Have you ever seen a VW CC or an S class MB? And the Sonata was not a particularly attractive iteration of that design language. I swear I think you just post on here to aggravate everyone.

[2005Explorer]

Cue disclaimer - "'Phoenix' flames showed in the LMC ad are not real, do not attempt."

 

Whenever I hear Phoenix and flames ad I think of this gem... lol

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9xqm00ODns&list=PLTouJYbGnvUZFVzRZGDKX1-MczSnBS63I

[Edstock]

The Sonata is the first car to sustainably innovate

 

Borg, just what the hell are you talking about? How the hell do you, or Hyundai "sustainably innovate"? Just how does "sustainable" innovation differ from non-sustainable innovation? Other than being sustainable, that is.

 

And, will the Sonata "Bloated Carp" styling innovate? Is it sustainable?

[FordFanForEver]

In the February sales CC today, Ford has reiterated (like they said last month) that the MKZ will not be fully stocked on dealer lots until early April. I just went to my Lincoln dealership last weekend and they didn't have a single one on the lot. Have patience, chill out, and wait to write the epitaph until they show us what they can do when fully stocked.

 

One dealer by me has 19 MKZ's another dealer about 20 miles further has 17 MKZ's. I reckon it depends on where you live and which dealers place orders first.

Edited March 5, 2013 by FordFanForEver

[FordFanForEver]

Have not seen a MKZ on the road yet but I did stop by our Mazda dealer to check out the Fusion based, Lincoln based Mazda 6. Would a sporty Fusion compete with Mazda 6?

[Extreme4x4]

Every CUV today, including every Ford Crossover and SUV outside of the Flex looks the way it does because of the RX. It is the most influential design of the modern era. The Sonata is the first car to sustainably innovate beyond the '86 Taurus (the 1996 Taurus and 2nd-gen LH cars tried), and indeed it's probably inspired by the CLS...but the Taurus was inspired by an Audi as well...so why is the Taurus celebrated? Because it's a car that changed popular design. The Sonata, like the CLS, is among the first to break the 3-box design mold which is the big achievement here and what the MKZ aims to do as well.

 

The Explorer design language is a derivative of every Explorer since the original 1990 model. The side glass shape, which is now the standard for all SUV's and most CUV's, came from those humble roots.

 

You cannot look at the Explorer anywhere, and see RX.

 

Sorry.

[BORG]

Borg, just what the hell are you talking about? How the hell do you, or Hyundai "sustainably innovate"? Just how does "sustainable" innovation differ from non-sustainable innovation? Other than being sustainable, that is.

 

And, will the Sonata "Bloated Carp" styling innovate? Is it sustainable?

 

The 1996 Taurus and the LH cars were innovators, but did not inspire global design change. And the Fusion is the one with the fish mouth, not the Hyundai.