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Joe771476

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Bob

thank you for that wonderful picture! It brings back very nice memories of visiting KTP and watching the class8 trucks being built!

At that time late 70’s early 80’s ford built all midrange and class 8’s there.

I sold manual transmissions to ford manufactured by Clark Equipment for class 5,6,7.first made in Rockingham NC and later made in Valinos Brazil.

The DSO engineering was done at the plant, not in Dearborn.

If you really think about KTP today, ford might need to keep mid range truck there because just Navigator and Expedition volumes would not be enough to keep the massive plant open!

AGAIN, great picture

edselford

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18 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Ok, time for a bit of...."the way we were".  

KTP  Assembly Line.jpeg

I really miss those 9000s!  One of my favorite Fords!

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I was a teenager in the 1970s when I saw my first Louisville truck, doubly impressed because it was a Ford and it was Right Hand Drive.

Back in the can do days..........

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Same here- I was working at a Mercury dealership when the Ford dealer across the street got in their first 1970 Louisville. Was only an LN500 gasser with the 300 cube 6, but everyone was impressed with the cab layout, instrument panel, wiring and plumbing, and other details. That Louisville was the talk of both dealerships for days...

 

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Ford's "Heavy Truck" sales were 750 for the month.  Perhaps jpd can break those down into models.

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On 5/5/2021 at 5:20 AM, rmc523 said:

Ford's "Heavy Truck" sales were 750 for the month.  Perhaps jpd can break those down into models.

Not yet but the F650 will be most of them, the F750 is usually 70-200 depending on total sales.

Either way you slice it I think the Medium Duty Trucks are a lower priority, it feels like that anyway.......

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23 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Not yet but the F650 will be most of them, the F750 is usually 70-200 depending on total sales.

Either way you slice it I think the Medium Duty Trucks are a lower priority, it feels like that anyway.......

Low numbers but better than same period 2020.  And the Covid shutdowns didn't take place  u til lat Feb., early March??

 

On 5/3/2021 at 12:34 PM, edselford said:

Bob

thank you for that wonderful picture! It brings back very nice memories of visiting KTP and watching the class8 trucks being built!

At that time late 70’s early 80’s ford built all midrange and class 8’s there.

I sold manual transmissions to ford manufactured by Clark Equipment for class 5,6,7.first made in Rockingham NC and later made in Valinos Brazil.

The DSO engineering was done at the plant, not in Dearborn.

If you really think about KTP today, ford might need to keep mid range truck there because just Navigator and Expedition volumes would not be enough to keep the massive plant open!

AGAIN, great picture

edselford

Edsel- never knew about DSO engineering working in plant.  Makes a lot of sense to me.  Crazy sales request comes in?  What better way then to go down on the floor and see what the real issue might be.

I was fortunate to  get a trip to KTP when the sales districts took turns bringing customers down.  Ford plane-a converted Convair 340/440 airliner that sat about 20 picked us up day 1 and got us back late day 2.

That would have been early-mid 80's-ouch 35+ yrs ago🙄

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On 5/2/2021 at 8:20 PM, iamweasel said:

 

Only way Ford would have made it to #1 is if they bought Detroit Diesel before Daimler did.  That was the golden ticket...best engines back then and still the best engines today, and the prime reason Freightliner outsells every other truck brand by a 3-to-1 margin.

 

Even if Ford built the best trucks on the planet today, they still would struggle to sell them because they don't have a dealer network that can handle it.  They would need some major investment on the dealer side to build service bays and parts inventories to handle it.  (Not to mention a culture change....handling commercial truck customers is a lot different than your Mustang, Explorer or even your typical Super Duty customer.)

You nailed it Weasel!   And there are no mediums to be found on the lots!  Not one!

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Posted (edited)

I guess the only way Ford sells trucks is by letting the dealers do it on youtube!  Sad.  They should be knocking on customers' doors, not just mailers.

 

(140) 2021 Ford F-750 Manassas, Chantilly, Woodbridge, Fairfax, Gaithersburg MD - YouTube
 

(140) 2020 Ford F600 XL 4x4 Chassis with Godzilla 7.3 Gas Engine...What is Different From the F550? - YouTube

 

Edited by Joe771476

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Bob- the LN series would look good today!

Your time frame is right on! Early 80’s was a very good time in the auto industry. The original Ford Explorer was introduced and a few years later the GM Blazer. Mid range trucks were doing well, basically the suppliers were trying to improve quality and make higher production volumes by running all out.(difficult to do)

Now everyone working on Electric vehicles weather SUV’s or commercial vehicles.

Probably need new type of battery to succeed in commercial class 4 thru 7.

current tech has issues with battery range reductions due to temperature, using heater or a/c and changes in Vehicle load!

edselford

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Posted (edited)

Anybody see this?  American car industry held hostage by foreign countries.  But how do they get them there?  Flatbed every one of them?  geesh.

 

(143) Ford trucks parked indefinitely at Kentucky Speedway, other Kentuckiana lots amid chip shortage - YouTube

Edited by Joe771476

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Joe,

This is an interesting situation which the people in Washington DC should take responsibility for!

Almost 30 years ago, I traveled throughout China looking for possible manufacturing partners to make 4WD transfer cases for the Chinese Market!

At that time, a good year making cars in China was about 1.3 million units! The leader was VW/Audi.

Everywhere I traveled to about one dozen very large cities, we would have dinners with the top people and reps from the communist central government. The Mayors were the most powerful people and all were very gracious.

Each dinner I would get the same questions,

”why does the US government want to buy everything from China? What are your people going to do for jobs? You are going to have massive unemployment/underemployment!

Well this was 30 years ago and nobody in China thought there would be new jobs in the US to replace the old jobs now done in China.

They were right and it appears the US government was wrong.

China did not ask us to make things for the US, we asked them to!

You can put all the spin on the chip problem that you want like cnn/fox/msnbc.  Etc but people have short memories 

Flint was a vibrant city. Now it’s a burned out hulk because gm shut down Buick City and decided to get engines and cars from Mexico and now China.

Fair Trade is different than Washington’s free trade! 
We always have to have a villain. This time the villain is us!

edselford

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Posted (edited)

Washington is not the answer, “just in time” global supply of parts with practically no stockpiles of parts is the big reason why corporations are getting hit badly. No one wants to pay for warehousing parts but that buffer is exactly what was needed while suppliers ramp up. It’s now up to corporates to decide if this current shortage is just the result of a hundred year event or the shape of things to come.

Edited by jpd80

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They copied JIT from the Japanese, forgetting that the auto industry and suppliers in Japan are fairly centralized so their supply lines are short. Doesn't work so well in a spread out continent like North America where suppliers and assembly plants are often a thousand or more miles apart and the weather can shut down transportation for days.

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7 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

They copied JIT from the Japanese, forgetting that the auto industry and suppliers in Japan are fairly centralized so their supply lines are short. Doesn't work so well in a spread out continent like North America where suppliers and assembly plants are often a thousand or more miles apart and the weather can shut down transportation for days.

Worked pretty well up until COVID restrictions hit the US Auto industry 

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Wasn't Joe's question directed toward the physical question of moving these "chip less" vehicles to these storage lots??  I guess Joe they drive them-they are always not far from assembly plant.  Question I have is how do they  run?  Or are most of these missing chips function in non critical applications?  That is they are the memory in the switrch that controls seat settings for driver 1 vs driver 2?  In other words non power train applications???

 

As for "Kanban"- yeah it makes sense-as long as you don't get hit with a pandemic or a teamsters strike or ship aground ion the Suez canal etc etc.

 

Bigger issue and to Edsel's point, IMO same old story....need for a better quarterly report.  Your competitor is sourcing his production on China, or Vietnam or India etc.  And you still are manufacturing in Newark- and your employees all wear shoes, and have medical insurance, and a 401k plan etc.  What do you do???  

3F0C8213-C473-46B0-879F-7A61EED543A7_1_105_c.thumb.jpeg.21f1c03f95855a84c0508e94dd4f94c2.jpeg

Unfortunately the financial people always win at the expense of the guy on the line.

 

The Bronco?  Beats me.  I'm typing away and all of a sudden the image is there.  It's mine, I've posted it before so figured I'd leave it- I think I had pulled up an album before and did not close it.  Sorry!

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Posted (edited)
On 4/22/2021 at 10:12 AM, bzcat said:

Ford Otosan is a relatively small unit of the huge Koc comglormate - one of the largest company in Turkey and controlled by one of the richest family there. So the cliff notes version is that Otosan doesn't need a partner or need to acquire someone to stay independent since it is already just a unit of a huge company - actually a unit of TWO huge companies... Koc Holdings and Ford Motor Company.

 

Both Koc and Ford are happy with the arrangement and they are not going to change. Ford doesn't have any ambition to compete with the big boys like Daimler, Volvo, Traton, Toyota, and Isuzu in medium and heavy trucks and it doesn't need any more volume on the light commercial vans now that it has VW in its camp. And Koc benefits from steady business from Ford that require only limited capital investment.

 

Koc's other automotive assets include Tofas, which is a joint venture that makes Fiat vehicles in a similar arrangement with Stellantis as Ford Otosan; and Otokar, which makes buses and military vehicles. Otokar is likely to be interested in CNH/Iveco but we don't know if Koc's joint venture agreement with Ford prohibits it from entering into direct competition with Ford Otosan (it probably does, which is why Otokar doesn't sell trucks).

 

Also, Ford's long term strategy in medium and heavy trucks are very unclear. There were 4 parts to this business until very recently:

1. Ford Otosan

2. JMC via Jiangling Ford

3. Ford Cargo (Brazil)

4. Ford US

 

On the face of it, this looks like enough assets to stitch together a global player with enough scale and volume but parts of these business have suffered from under-investment for years if not decades so it would take a lot of capital to catch up with the market leaders. Ford closed down Brazil rather than invest so that tells you a lot about what Ford thinks of the medium and heavy trucks business... it's not something they are that interested in. Ford Otosan's heavy truck business exists mainly because Koc brought that part of the business to the joint venture. Same with JMC which inherited the Jiangling Isuzu business when it was restructured. Ford Otosan still sees new investment because of Koc. Meanwhile JMC is pretty much in terminal decline like Ford Cargo in Brazil... eventually, Ford will have to put in real money to update that business and there is no indication that Ford will do that with no other medium duty cab forward products elsewhere.

 

And that leaves the US part in a big question mark too. The F-series super duty will get needed investments but F-650/750, stripped chassis, and E-series will all need investments for electrification... Doesn't feel like that is something Ford is committed to doing while all of the competitors have already committed.

 

 

 

Well, we know what Ford's plan for JMC's heavy duty truck business. They are getting rid of it.

 

https://www.autohome.com.cn/news/202105/1152229.html#pvareaid=102624

 

According to this article, JMC's board of director (which Ford has effective control of) approved selling the heavy truck business of JMC. Google translate does a serviceable job of getting the point across:

 

Quote

JMC Board of Directors approved at a price not less than 764 million yuan, and property rights trading market by Shanxi limited liability company public bidding, the sale of a wholly-owned subsidiary of Jiangling Heavy-Duty Truck Co., Ltd. (Abbreviation: Jiangling Heavy Duty Truck) 100% equity

~~~

After the sale of Jiangling Heavy Duty Truck, Jiangling Motors will further focus on the company's superior resources, focus on areas with high growth potential, and accelerate the implementation of the strategy of "becoming a leader in the light commercial vehicle industry and a provider of Ford's cost-effective products".

 

Sounds like JMC will now go all in on Transit and pickup trucks, and other Ford branded products. I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation Transit and Ranger are headed to China.

Edited by bzcat

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1 hour ago, bzcat said:

 

Well, we know what Ford's plan for JMC's heavy duty truck business. They are getting rid of it.

 

https://www.autohome.com.cn/news/202105/1152229.html#pvareaid=102624

 

According to this article, JMC's board of director (which Ford has effective control of) approved selling the heavy truck business of JMC. Google translate does a serviceable job of getting the point across:

 

 

Sounds like JMC will now go all in on Transit and pickup trucks, and other Ford branded products. I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation Transit and Ranger are headed to China.

Hah- as long as the Transit and  Ranger are HEADED to  China and not COMING from China.

As for Ford selling the Chinese heavy truck business, more of the Ford definition of "commercial vehicles".  They should start using the phrase "Light" commercial vehicles in any reference to trucks.

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32 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Hah- as long as the Transit and  Ranger are HEADED to  China and not COMING from China.

As for Ford selling the Chinese heavy truck business, more of the Ford definition of "commercial vehicles".  They should start using the phrase "Light" commercial vehicles in any reference to trucks.

JMC heavy trucks was selling rebranded Cargos

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I never understood JMC in the first place.  Jiangling Heavy Truck was partnering with Isuzu for commercial trucks, but Isuzu appeared to have a much more successful arrangement with Qingling.  Isuzu is a very highly regarded truck in China.

 

  https://www.qinglingisuzu.com/

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

I never understood JMC in the first place.  Jiangling Heavy Truck was partnering with Isuzu for commercial trucks, but Isuzu appeared to have a much more successful arrangement with Qingling.  Isuzu is a very highly regarded truck in China.

 

  https://www.qinglingisuzu.com/

 

All the foreign car companies have multiple partners in China. 

 

Isuzu and Jiangling goes back a long ways. Jiangling Isuzu still exists (under a new name) and still makes pickup trucks but it is no longer part of JMC. Qingling Isuzu ran parallel to Jiangling Isuzu which is normal business practice in China. Ford is actually one of the few foreign car companies that didn't have two full joint ventures in China. 

 

Original version of Jiangling Motors Corporation (JMC) had five business units:

1. Jiangling Isuzu (49% owned by Isuzu)

2. Jiangling Ford (50% owned by Ford)

3. JMC (Isuzu based pickup trucks) 100% owned by JMC

4. JMC Heavy Trucks (Isuzu based cab forward trucks) 100% owned by JMC

5. The infamous Landwind (Isuzu based SUVs) brand 100% owned by JMC

 

Noticed the majority of JMC's business was based on Isuzu licensed technology and platforms. Jiangling Ford had only one product - Transit.

 

A fews ago, after losing control of Chang'an Mazda and FAW Mazda, Ford decided to change Jiangling Ford into an all-purpose JV instead of one that only makes vans. But Ford didn't want the Jiangling name to be associated with Landwind because of the controversy over the deathtrap SUV it was selling in Europe . The Isuzu JV and Landwind were transferred to the holding company Jiangling Motors Corporation Group (JMCG). The Isuzu JV was renamed Jiangxi Isuzu to avoid confusion.

 

What was left of Jiangling Motors (JMC, JMC Heavy Trucks, Jiangling Ford) were recapitalized and Ford became the largest owner of the new Jiangling Motors. So under this arrangement, JMC became a Ford brand and Ford then launched Yusheng SUV brand and Ford Everest SUV to fill the void left behind by Landwind, which had become a separate company owned by JMCG. 

 

So this is roughly what the ownership looks like now:

 

JMCG 30% --> Jiangling Motors (JMC) <-- Ford 40% (biggest shareholder and controlling interest) [the reminder 30% is owned by Chang'an and Jiangxi Provincial Govt]

JMCG 100% --> Landwind 

JMCG 50% --> Jiangxi Isuzu <-- Isuzu 50%

 

And because Ford controls JMC, it counts all the vehicles sold by JMC in its worldwide sales. Selling the JMC heavy trucks and launching Ford based pickup truck to replace the Isuzu one will complete the de-Isuzu-fication of JMC.

Edited by bzcat

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Thanks, that puts it in a better perspective.  Looks like a rationalization, it gets Ford out of the heavy truck business in China and opens the door for more Ford light commercial. 

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23 hours ago, jpd80 said:

JMC heavy trucks was selling rebranded Cargos

 

jp- The only "Ford" I ever saw a picture of was what I would call a "high tilt" with a lot more cladding to further disguise it from a Ford- and it was not the new F-Max.  Did they also do a version of the "low tilt" Cargo that Otosan shows on their site as what I would call a vocational-with big planetary rears and often  a dual axle front end.?

4 hours ago, bzcat said:

 

All the foreign car companies have multiple partners in China. 

 

Isuzu and Jiangling goes back a long ways. Jiangling Isuzu still exists (under a new name) and still makes pickup trucks but it is no longer part of JMC. Qingling Isuzu ran parallel to Jiangling Isuzu which is normal business practice in China. Ford is actually one of the few foreign car companies that didn't have two full joint ventures in China. 

 

Original version of Jiangling Motors Corporation (JMC) had five business units:

1. Jiangling Isuzu (49% owned by Isuzu)

2. Jiangling Ford (50% owned by Ford)

3. JMC (Isuzu based pickup trucks) 100% owned by JMC

4. JMC Heavy Trucks (Isuzu based cab forward trucks) 100% owned by JMC

5. The infamous Landwind (Isuzu based SUVs) brand 100% owned by JMC

 

Noticed the majority of JMC's business was based on Isuzu licensed technology and platforms. Jiangling Ford had only one product - Transit.

 

A fews ago, after losing control of Chang'an Mazda and FAW Mazda, Ford decided to change Jiangling Ford into an all-purpose JV instead of one that only makes vans. But Ford didn't want the Jiangling name to be associated with Landwind because of the controversy over the deathtrap SUV it was selling in Europe . The Isuzu JV and Landwind were transferred to the holding company Jiangling Motors Corporation Group (JMCG). The Isuzu JV was renamed Jiangxi Isuzu to avoid confusion.

 

What was left of Jiangling Motors (JMC, JMC Heavy Trucks, Jiangling Ford) were recapitalized and Ford became the largest owner of the new Jiangling Motors. So under this arrangement, JMC became a Ford brand and Ford then launched Yusheng SUV brand and Ford Everest SUV to fill the void left behind by Landwind, which had become a separate company owned by JMCG. 

 

So this is roughly what the ownership looks like now:

 

JMCG 30% --> Jiangling Motors (JMC) <-- Ford 40% (biggest shareholder and controlling interest) [the reminder 30% is owned by Chang'an and Jiangxi Provincial Govt]

JMCG 100% --> Landwind 

JMCG 50% --> Jiangxi Isuzu <-- Isuzu 50%

 

And because Ford controls JMC, it counts all the vehicles sold by JMC in its worldwide sales. Selling the JMC heavy trucks and launching Ford based pickup truck to replace the Isuzu one will complete the de-Isuzu-fication of JMC.

Bzcat- you and a few others sure have an understanding of the Chinese market.  Apparently Detroit doesn't have any reservations about proprietary rights?

Seems  to me like a dance with the devil.  And yes I do understand the size of the market.  I just scratch my head...is it possible to win with these guys???

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Bob, it’s my belief that JMC was using the superseded Cargo, not the F-Max, probably why it could sell off as a going concern.

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1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Bob, it’s my belief that JMC was using the superseded Cargo, not the F-Max, probably why it could sell off as a going concern.

 

Oh, they are using a copy of F-Max alright...

Ford F-Max

image.png.0bd8623e0ed22b4e486d67389af54087.png

 

JMC Weilong HV5
image.png.baeb9935e770769e6fe00d839dca5c11.png

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