New Light & Medium Duty News

[Joe771476]

Yeah Bob, even class 6 Ford is now third. What happened? I think Freightliner and International are giving them away. Ford was number one for a while. Hino lags way behind Ford in class 6, a little behind in class 7. I don't know how well they'e going to do in class 8, but until Ford goes into class 8, no one is going to take them seriously in class 7. I almost didn't notice that Ford has moved past Dodge/Ram in class 3 thru 5 YTD!!! Also, International is now pushing gas engines in their school buses. And that recall including the mediums regarding the transmission selector jumping doesn't help!

Edited April 22, 2018 by Joe771476

[twintornados]

...When Ford builds their own 9 liter 6 banger then Ill be on board for additional engines. Until then not so much.

.

They already do that. Just not available in North America.

[twintornados]

Here is an interesting picture I stumbled across while looking up something else...looks like the Cargo line has landed in China...just through Ford's truck partner..

 

https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/48768-china-market-ford-cargo-heavy-tractor-arrives/

 

 

The trucks, produced by JMC Heavy-Duty Vehicle Company, the heavy truck joint venture of JMC and Ford Motor Company, wears the JMC badge. Ford holds a 32 percent stake in the joint venture.

The trucks are powered by JMC model JX6D 9- and 13-liter engines, based on Ford’s Ecotorq engines and produced under license.

Edited April 22, 2018 by twintornados

[Stray Kat]

Here is an interesting picture I stumbled across while looking up something else...looks like the Cargo line has landed in China...just through Ford's truck partner..

 

https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/48768-china-market-ford-cargo-heavy-tractor-arrives/

 

 

Is that the Ecotorq that started life as a Fiat design? Or is that a true Ford based engine?

[twintornados]

Is that the Ecotorq that started life as a Fiat design? Or is that a true Ford based engine?

.

From what I have read, the EcoTorq 7.3L and 9.0L is an all new Ford design....designed to meet Euro 6 emissions moving forward.

[sullynd]

 

Not bad looking, though it looks a bit like an Autobot.

[SteelyD]

 

SK-Glad to hear that because the 3 mos YTD numbers for 650/750 don't look good. Although today I did see two brand new 650/750s that one of the big sign/highway marking companies has. One was an attenuator, the other a dump pulling a tag trailer that had a mini excavator on it.

 

Also new Work Truck mag came this week and again Ford had a separate commercial truck ad booklet enclosed.

 

In looking at that, they are posting a GCWR max of 50,000 pds. In a lot of the older ad copy they were silent on GCW ratings.

 

So while I'm glad to see them publishing a GCWR rating, I do think however, that 50,000 lb rating is a commentary on the capability of the 6.7/Torqueshift combo. In the "old days"-KTP era- F-750/800/8000's were used by many companies as P & D tractors. This was at the same time they were building Louisvilles with in essence the same power train options in the respective LN/L 750/800/8000 series and with the same ratings. The choice was "premium heavy truck cab" -or save a few bucks with the smaller F series package.

 

IMO, there is no reason why a 750 today could not carry a higher GCWR rating given available frame specs, axle specs, tire specs etc. Is the cab a compromise?-yes-but if anything it is a better environment than the old F cab when they did compete in that tractor market.

 

So what is keeping them from doing that?? In my opinion the current power trains just don't have it to handle the higher weight as well as the wind factor associated with pulling a 13' high box trailer.

 

My same broken record speech-time for an alternative to the 6.7/Torqueshift to give Ford a good shot at additional volume.

The Scorpion is doing the job it was intended to do and doing it well. Ford is in the market where it wants to be at this time. Your speculation on where it coulda woulda shoulda be is just that, speculation.

[Bob Rosadini]

The Scorpion is doing the job it was intended to do and doing it well. Ford is in the market where it wants to be at this time. Your speculation on where it coulda woulda shoulda be is just that, speculation.

Ok- I guess you are of the opinion that continual lost market share is not a bad thing. Uh-losing market share is an objective of the Power Stroke/Torque shift combination??

 

As a stockholder, I take the position that while the competition gets tougher, to do nothing to arrest a decline in volume will ultimately lead to one thing- a decision to abandon the market. If OHAP has a break even point, at what point does the lost volume make each sale a less profitable one?

 

Asset utilization-be it a truck fleet or a manufacturing facility is key to survival and profitability. And again, I'm not suggesting Ford spends significant dollars to say get back into highway class 8. I'm simply suggesting that given the trucks current component availability, it would not take much to compete in another segment of class 7, namely the tractor market.

 

And by the way, why would you suppose Ford would warranty a 750 with a 37,000 lb GVW-but only provide a GCW warranty for 50,000 lb . Can you give me a sound a explanation for that?

 

And as I've previously pointed out, Ford was a key player in the utility fleets in this part of the country with many running 750 bucket trucks, pole cats etc. These things are usually loaded to the max with all the gear they carry- to say nothing of occasionally pulling a pole trailer or large cable reel. Do I see any new OHAP 750's in that service? NO way. What's changed? From Bluediamond specs to OHAP specs-frame options the same-tire/wheel specs the same, Axles, spring options etc-all the same. Only thing different? No diesel option other than the Power Stroke/Torque shift combo.

 

And don't get me wrong. I'm sure that combination is doing well in many applications. As I point out to many of my associates who continue the "Powerjoke" story of the 6.0/6.4 era, how many 550's at 19,500 are doing well with no issues.. You just don't see them usually in anything above 26,000 GVW. And for sure I have NEVER seen a 750 tractor in anything but a Ford ad.

[Bob Rosadini]

 

Yeah Bob, even class 6 Ford is now third. What happened? I think Freightliner and International are giving them away. Ford was number one for a while. Hino lags way behind Ford in class 6, a little behind in class 7. I don't know how well they'e going to do in class 8, but until Ford goes into class 8, no one is going to take them seriously in class 7. I almost didn't notice that Ford has moved past Dodge/Ram in class 3 thru 5 YTD!!! Also, International is now pushing gas engines in their school buses. And that recall including the mediums regarding the transmission selector jumping doesn't help!

Joe-I'm afraid it goes beyond price. I think we continue to see greater confidence in the Navistar Cummins/Allison combo as well as the F'liner DD/Allison combo. Let's hope the 7.? liter gas job gets here soon.

And you are right about class 3-5. Ford has inched ahead. But I must say,I know too many people who have gone the Ram/Cummins route for 19,500 lb service trucks and claim fewer problems than they have experienced with their F-550 Power Strokes. Hate to say it, but it has not been a decision based on the Rams being less costly.

[Bob Rosadini]

.

From what I have read, the EcoTorq 7.3L and 9.0L is an all new Ford design....designed to meet Euro 6 emissions moving forward.

TT-Hope you are right but I'm still of the belief it is the Fiat design. I have to believe if it was a Ford design with no restrictions on using it beyond Euro, we would see it-in particular as I did not think there was much difference between Euro 6 and our latest EPA regs.

[twintornados]

TT-Hope you are right but I'm still of the belief it is the Fiat design. I have to believe if it was a Ford design with no restrictions on using it beyond Euro, we would see it-in particular as I did not think there was much difference between Euro 6 and our latest EPA regs.

.

Ford is licensing out the Ecotorq design to JMC in China for both the 7.3L and 9.0L......I don't believe they would be able to license out a design that wasn't theirs in the first place.

[twintornados]

Not bad looking, though it looks a bit like an Autobot.

.

An angry one at that.....lol

[Bob Rosadini]

.

Ford is licensing out the Ecotorq design to JMC in China for both the 7.3L and 9.0L......I don't believe they would be able to license out a design that wasn't theirs in the first place.

Ah good point. Hmn-wonder what happened to.."One Ford"

[jpd80]

.

From what I have read, the EcoTorq 7.3L and 9.0L is an all new Ford design....designed to meet Euro 6 emissions moving forward.

7.3 was original Ecotorque

9.0 was second gen buy in from Fiat to meet Euro 5

13.0 Gen 3 is the all Ford design Ecotorque good for euro 6.

 

With a little work I'm sure the 13.0 liter would meet US EPA, what an engine to have in class 7 and 8,

that would get sales humming.....those big trucks need big engines otherwise they just fall flat against

the competition, you need something that can tow 25-40 tons down the road in relative ease.

Edited April 23, 2018 by jpd80

[twintornados]

7.3 was original Ecotorque

9.0 was second gen buy in from Fiat to meet Euro 5

13.0 Gen 3 is the all Ford design Ecotorque good for euro 6.

 

With a little work I'm sure the 13.0 liter would meet US EPA, what an engine to have in class 7 and 8,

that would get sales humming.....those big trucks need big engines otherwise they just fall flat against

the competition, you need something that can tow 25-40 tons down the road in relative ease.

.

I'll have to find where I read it, but it claimed 7.3 and 9.0 Ecotorq is an "all Ford" design...and both were designed with Euro 6 in mind...

 

ADD ON: Found it....

 

https://www.fordtrucks.com.tr/tr-en/history

 

 

 

In 2003, production started for the H298 series Cargo trucks, as well as the 100% indigenous 7.3 L Ecotorq engine with power values of 260 PS/320 PS/360 PS/380 PS, a result of 100% Ford Engineering. The Cargo product range continued to expand with the addition of the H476 series, a 100% indigenous 9.0 L Ecotorq engine and the road trucks.

Edited April 23, 2018 by twintornados

[SteelyD]

Ok- I guess you are of the opinion that continual lost market share is not a bad thing. Uh-losing market share is an objective of the Power Stroke/Torque shift combination??

 

As a stockholder, I take the position that while the competition gets tougher, to do nothing to arrest a decline in volume will ultimately lead to one thing- a decision to abandon the market. If OHAP has a break even point, at what point does the lost volume make each sale a less profitable one?

 

Asset utilization-be it a truck fleet or a manufacturing facility is key to survival and profitability. And again, I'm not suggesting Ford spends significant dollars to say get back into highway class 8. I'm simply suggesting that given the trucks current component availability, it would not take much to compete in another segment of class 7, namely the tractor market.

 

And by the way, why would you suppose Ford would warranty a 750 with a 37,000 lb GVW-but only provide a GCW warranty for 50,000 lb . Can you give me a sound a explanation for that?

 

And as I've previously pointed out, Ford was a key player in the utility fleets in this part of the country with many running 750 bucket trucks, pole cats etc. These things are usually loaded to the max with all the gear they carry- to say nothing of occasionally pulling a pole trailer or large cable reel. Do I see any new OHAP 750's in that service? NO way. What's changed? From Bluediamond specs to OHAP specs-frame options the same-tire/wheel specs the same, Axles, spring options etc-all the same. Only thing different? No diesel option other than the Power Stroke/Torque shift combo.

 

And don't get me wrong. I'm sure that combination is doing well in many applications. As I point out to many of my associates who continue the "Powerjoke" story of the 6.0/6.4 era, how many 550's at 19,500 are doing well with no issues.. You just don't see them usually in anything above 26,000 GVW. And for sure I have NEVER seen a 750 tractor in anything but a Ford ad.

Write a letter to the board advocating your view. Tell them you are a stock holder.

[hwyman3]

7.3 was original Ecotorque

9.0 was second gen buy in from Fiat to meet Euro 5

13.0 Gen 3 is the all Ford design Ecotorque good for euro 6.

 

With a little work I'm sure the 13.0 liter would meet US EPA, what an engine to have in class 7 and 8,

that would get sales humming.....those big trucks need big engines otherwise they just fall flat against

the competition, you need something that can tow 25-40 tons down the road in relative ease.

 

 

A 13L PowerStroke does have a nice ring to it

[Joe771476]

Chevy marketing 4500, 5500 and 6500 HD medium including crew cabs made with Navistar frames according to Construction Equipment magazine. International unveils Class 6-7 MV (medium vocational) series. Oh yeah, VW is eyeing a complete takeover of Navistar. Another bastion of American trucking gone! Why do foreign companies buy American truck mfrs. but not the other way around? Don't we have enough ambition, passion, money to buy the VW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volvo truck divisions? Sickening.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Joe771476

[hwyman3]

Chevy marketing 4500, 5500 and 6500 HD medium including crew cabs made with Navistar frames according to Construction Equipment magazine. International unveils Class 6-7 MV (medium vocational) series. Oh yeah, VW is eyeing a complete takeover of Navistar. Another bastion of American trucking gone! Why do foreign companies buy American truck mfrs. but not the other way around? Don't we have enough ambition, passion, money to buy the VW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volvo truck divisions? Sickening.

 

 

Looking at the International website, I really don't notice much difference between the MV and the Durastar, except the badges.

 

I have often wondered the same thing myself about the European Companies taking over American Heavy Truck manufacturers, Volvo getting Mack, Mercedes with Freightliner now VW getting Navistar.

[Bob Rosadini]

 

 

Looking at the International website, I really don't notice much difference between the MV and the Durastar, except the badges.

 

I have often wondered the same thing myself about the European Companies taking over American Heavy Truck manufacturers, Volvo getting Mack, Mercedes with Freightliner now VW getting Navistar.

I think big change is in interior-dash layout with several options.. As for exterior I think only visible change is elimination of vent window.

[7Mary3]

VW kind of walked that Navistar takeover statement back the other day. I am not too sure they will make a move for NAV, they have a good partner in NAV as it is and VW doesn't have to deal with their issues. I certainly do see more cooperation between VW's truck group and NAV, no question. And, I think you will see VW spin their truck group off in the foreseeable future.

[twintornados]

... And, I think you will see VW spin their truck group off in the foreseeable future.

.

If they put the truck group up, odds on favorite that one of the Chinese conglomerates will buy it in a heartbeat.

[7Mary3]

.

If they put the truck group up, odds on favorite that one of the Chinese conglomerates will buy it in a heartbeat.

Not a sale, a spin-off. VW truck becomes a separate entity with it's own stock. Shares would be distributed to holders of VW shares. This is done to better reflect the value of the individual operations.

[bzcat]

Why do foreign companies buy American truck mfrs. but not the other way around? Don't we have enough ambition, passion, money to buy the VW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volvo truck divisions? Sickening.

 

Paccar is a US company and they own DAF and Leyland.

 

US companies spin off their truck and bus operations because their shareholders demanded so. Ford and GM both did the same thing in the name of shareholder value. So they are not in a position to buy other truck companies when they come up for sale. It's all about corporate priorities. But this is not just limited to US companies... Renault-Nissan and FCA also divested from trucks.

 

Daimler, VW and Volvo (and Toyota and Tata) identified trucks and buses as a strategic area for them so they continue to invest in them.

[351cid]

VW kind of walked that Navistar takeover statement back the other day. I am not too sure they will make a move for NAV, they have a good partner in NAV as it is and VW doesn't have to deal with their issues. I certainly do see more cooperation between VW's truck group and NAV, no question. And, I think you will see VW spin their truck group off in the foreseeable future.

NAV is poison to any corporation right now. The pending lawsuits over the MaxxForce is mind boggling. No one in their right mind would want any of that.