7Mary3 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, SteelyD said: You seem to be well informed on GM business. Why do you post on BON? I try to be well informed on GM, Ford, FCA, Navistar, Isuzu, and DTNA as a part of my profession. I post here because there are some very knowledgeable contributors on these forums. Edited December 31, 2019 by 7Mary3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 (edited) For anyone curious about the approximate breakdown of F Series sales, my research leads me to think that a 72,000 sales month would be roughly: F150 ~50,000.....60% EB, 30% V8, 5% 3.3, 5% Diesel F250 ~8,850.......60% diesel, 40% 6.2 gas F350 ~4,450........90% diesel, 10% 6.2 Gas F450 ~2,300........100% diesel F550~4,250.........100% diesel F650~1,950..........25% diesel, 75% 6.8 Gas F750~200..............Unknown By no means 100% accurate but I'm comfortable it's close enough for discussion purposes. F450 to F750 fairly accurate data, F150, F250 and F350 are approximate sales splits. I hope this helps with moving conversations forward, don't have much color on the GM twins except for 2/3s 1500, 1/3 HDs but i suspect that they would follow a similar pattern to Ford. Love to know people's thoughts on how the 7.3 V8 will transform sales and whether Ford will be forced to make more "production room" or will we see some shift away from the 6.7 diesel Edited December 31, 2019 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailhiker Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 6 hours ago, jpd80 said: Love to know people's thoughts on how the 7.3 V8 will transform sales and whether Ford will be forced to make more "production room" or will we see some shift away from the 6.7 diesel I'm thinking Ford is being proactive by offering the 7.3 V8. There might be increased pressure to regulate/tax diesel engines/fuel in the near future. Having a capable and solid gas alternative might mean a great deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 6 hours ago, jpd80 said: Love to know people's thoughts on how the 7.3 V8 will transform sales and whether Ford will be forced to make more "production room" or will we see some shift away from the 6.7 diesel The 7.3 gasser is a great move on Ford's part. With diesel engines becoming more complex and expensive, not to mention the higher price of fuel, having a capable V8 gasser is a must. A diesel just doesn't make financial sense if you aren't towing heavy regularly. I tow about 13k lbs of fifth wheel, and if I were to replace my truck today, I'm not sure if I would go back with the 6.7L diesel or the new 7.3L gasser. I don't NEED 1050 ft-lbs of torque, but dang it sure is fun and makes towing easy! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 6 hours ago, jpd80 said: For anyone curious about the approximate breakdown of F Series sales, my research leads me to think that a 72,000 sales month would be roughly: F150 ~50,000.....60% EB, 30% V8, 5% 3.3, 5% Diesel F250 ~8,850.......60% diesel, 40% 6.2 gas F350 ~4,450........90% diesel, 10% 6.2 Gas F450 ~2,300........100% diesel F550~4,250.........100% diesel F650~1,950..........25% diesel, 75% 6.8 Gas F750~200..............Unknown By no means 100% accurate but I'm comfortable it's close enough for discussion purposes. F450 to F750 fairly accurate data, F150, F250 and F350 are approximate sales splits. I hope this helps with moving conversations forward, don't have much color on the GM twins except for 2/3s 1500, 1/3 HDs but i suspect that they would follow a similar pattern to Ford. Love to know people's thoughts on how the 7.3 V8 will transform sales and whether Ford will be forced to make more "production room" or will we see some shift away from the 6.7 diesel As always JP thx for stats. Not sure about those 450/550 power splits based on what I see around here. Looking at the truck rags, I would say 25-30% of 450/550's in stock are gas. As for 7.3 I know-I'm a broken record on that one. Home run unless Ford gets greedy on the 7.3 pricing. So many buyers in class 6 and 7 need power but if they have a 5 dollar calculator they know they can't payout that high upfront premium for diesel as the MPG benefit is just not there based on annual mileage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 There is BIG demand in the Class A and Class C motorhome market ! Also, I would expect that rental trucks (E350/450 and F600/650) would be 100% gas. I am not sure what else the 3.3L diesel gets installed in, but if the volumes stay that low, it might hit the chopping block. Related, but slightly off topic. Are the International Class 7 (bottom end of Class 8 ) that cheap that Ford can not seem to break into the short haul "beverage delivery" tractor market ? Ford has not cracked the municipality dump truck market either. Maybe the 7.3L and 10 speed will make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Another thing to consider is Ford's JV with JMC in China. That gives Ford ready access to COE options as well as the entire Cargo line from the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Cargo cabovers are a possibility, but consider cabovers are still a small percentage of the medium duty market and here in the U.S. and there are very strong competitors. My guess is a platform consolidation. The 450 and 550 as basically part of the regular F series Super Duty product line, while the much lower volume 650 and 750 are unique. Maybe Ford is thinking along the lines of one medium duty platform from 450 up, borrowing components from the Super Duty platform as much as possible. "Med Duty as you know it has a short life" could mean a lot of things........ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 minute ago, 7Mary3 said: Cargo cabovers are a possibility, but consider cabovers are still a small percentage of the medium duty market and here in the U.S. and there are very strong competitors. My guess is a platform consolidation. The 450 and 550 as basically part of the regular F series Super Duty product line, while the much lower volume 650 and 750 are unique. Maybe Ford is thinking along the lines of one medium duty platform from 450 up, borrowing components from the Super Duty platform as much as possible. "Med Duty as you know it has a short life" could mean a lot of things........ 7 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: As always JP thx for stats. Not sure about those 450/550 power splits based on what I see around here. Looking at the truck rags, I would say 25-30% of 450/550's in stock are gas. As for 7.3 I know-I'm a broken record on that one. Home run unless Ford gets greedy on the 7.3 pricing. So many buyers in class 6 and 7 need power but if they have a 5 dollar calculator they know they can't payout that high upfront premium for diesel as the MPG benefit is just not there based on annual mileage. Thanks Bob, keep in mind that those stats are historic and patchy. The gas diesel splits on Class 4,5 and 6 is a little hard, the sales mix of stripped chassis F59, F53 and E-Series accounts for around 2,000/mth and 4,000/mth respectively and would seem to be mostly gasoline engine based units...which makes es me think about the F5\450 stripped chassis diesel only, may be leaving space for the E450 stripped chassis gasoline units....lots of variables depending on ordering patterns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: Cargo cabovers are a possibility, but consider cabovers are still a small percentage of the medium duty market and here in the U.S. and there are very strong competitors. My guess is a platform consolidation. The 450 and 550 as basically part of the regular F series Super Duty product line, while the much lower volume 650 and 750 are unique. Maybe Ford is thinking along the lines of one medium duty platform from 450 up, borrowing components from the Super Duty platform as much as possible. "Med Duty as you know it has a short life" could mean a lot of things........ If F650 buyers embrace the F600 , that leaves open a chance to change F650 and F750... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Imagine this as part of a redesigned MD truck line from Ford with a 7.3L gas ....I believe that JMC is going to be a key player in Fords' medium duty plans for cab sourcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 7 hours ago, theoldwizard said: There is BIG demand in the Class A and Class C motorhome market ! Also, I would expect that rental trucks (E350/450 and F600/650) would be 100% gas. I am not sure what else the 3.3L diesel gets installed in, but if the volumes stay that low, it might hit the chopping block. Related, but slightly off topic. Are the International Class 7 (bottom end of Class 8 ) that cheap that Ford can not seem to break into the short haul "beverage delivery" tractor market ? Ford has not cracked the municipality dump truck market either. Maybe the 7.3L and 10 speed will make a difference. For sure I too have questioned why Ford has done nothing -at least on what I see around here with the beverage guys. As for the big guys here (New England, Coke and Pepsi) F'liner and International rule with the 27' "bay" delivery trailers. Again, I think Ford would have a chance for starters if they at least offered an Allison, and even though we are talking about a diminishing load, I think the Ford transmission issue is a turn off -even more so than the PowerStroke. The beer guys here? Forget it. Most use tandem straight job boxes with railgates, and there are also a lot of 35' tandem trailers-with both single and tandem tractors. Not exactly something something that most guys would want to trust a 6.7 mated to a 350 lb transmission. As for municipals, Ford does very well with 550's as a lot of departments are using them for local roads, intersection clean ups etc. When it comes to the big stuff, again International and F'liner rule. 26 rears and minimum of 14 fronts. And while you can get a 750 with a 37,000 plate (23/14), again the engine/trans option-in particular the trans issue- makes them a "no sale". LN-8000's (and even LN-900's) in the old days were popular -but they were manuals or Allisons in back of 3208's 7.8 Fords, 8.3 Cummins, or Ford 401/477/534 gas. And just thinking, the Mass Turnpike Authority had L-9000's - not sure what big block power they had but they were beasts. IFEG- Where are you? You always jump in when it comes to municipals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, theoldwizard said: There is BIG demand in the Class A and Class C motorhome market ! Also, I would expect that rental trucks (E350/450 and F600/650) would be 100% gas. I am not sure what else the 3.3L diesel gets installed in, but if the volumes stay that low, it might hit the chopping block. The 3.3 V6 in F150 is the atmo V6, the V6 Powerstroke is a 3.0 diesel and as mentioned before by Icecapades, Ford just doesn't advertise the V6 powestroke is available in F150, the 3.3 gas V6 may become a hybrid like in Explorer but I have a hunch that maybe the F150 hybrid is a 5.0 V8 with the Mustang. Ford continues to play to its strength in class 2b-3 and 4-5-6...I don't see enough committment in the MDs at the moment, they feel like a comb over until something else is ready. Duratorq 9 liter reworked as a large gas engine? Edited January 1, 2020 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 39 minutes ago, jpd80 said: If F650 buyers embrace the F600 , that leaves open a chance to change F650 and F750. Good point, because the F-600 covers a lot of the F-650's territory. The F-650 offers a little higher GVW, longer wheelbase options, dock height body (22.5" wheels), and air brakes. If you don't need any of that, an F-600 will do just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 hours ago, twintornados said: Imagine this as part of a redesigned MD truck line from Ford with a 7.3L gas ....I believe that JMC is going to be a key player in Fords' medium duty plans for cab sourcing. I see it, but you are talking about a truck that Isuzu, Chevy, and Fuso already offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: Good point, because the F-600 covers a lot of the F-650's territory. The F-650 offers a little higher GVW, longer wheelbase options, dock height body (22.5" wheels), and air brakes. If you don't need any of that, an F-600 will do just fine. And clearly Ford is offering the F600 to see how many will change, if they do F650 and F750 may get an early shower. All of this feels like Ford moving chess pieces around.... Edited January 1, 2020 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 On municipals, around here I see some F550 dumps with 9 foot plows on them in the winter, with a few F450s scattered around. There are a few places that still use the older "large body" Chevy and GMC 4500s and 5500s. No F650/750s anywhere to be seen. With the plows used in the winter season, a 14K front will not cut it. Most dump/spreader/plow trucks around here are at the heavy end of class 7 (both SA and tandem). International and F'liner are the big players, with some Western Stars in the mix. In the class 5 end, I have seen a few on the new Chevy/International with temp tags on them, probably for private contractors. On the State side, International is the big player with about an 80/20 mix of tandem/SA. I may have said this before, but a friend is an installer at an upfitter that specializes in plow/spreaders, and most cab and chassis that come in are internationals. The installers love them because they come in with all the necessary holes and brackets already in place from the factory. And much of the wiring is that way also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelyD Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 On 12/30/2019 at 10:32 AM, RichardJensen said: Curious, then, that Ford's been the engineering lead on the past two JV RWD transmissions. No use posting on here. This thread is reserved for the truck experts to show off their supposed knowledge of all except Ford. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) Interesting also that JMC builds 9.0L and 13.0L Ecotorq motors using CGI in the block and head of the 9L and in the head of the 13L. Both motors are China CN5 emissions compliant (as of the article date of 2017) which, from what I have found, is equal to US emission standards, and are likely to be China 6a compliant as the new emission regs will go into effect there in July of this year. That 9.0L would go nicely in F750...but I am only repeating myself here on that point Edited January 1, 2020 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) According to a Motorhome mag, the two biggest players are Freightliner and Spartan in the large category. Ford is the only gas engine supplier and according to the article only offers the F53 chassis. I thought there was another one, F59? Edited January 2, 2020 by Joe771476 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 Ford should buy the rights to this! 28) Watch - Discover 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 24 minutes ago, Joe771476 said: According to a Motorhome mag, the two biggest layers are Freightliner and Spartan in the large category. Ford is the only gas engine supplier and according to the article only offers the F53 chassis. I thought there was another one, F59? Ford offers F53, F59, E350 and E450 in strip chassis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Freightliner (FCCC) offers a gas engine stripped chassis, but I don't think it's offered for motorhome use. It uses the GM 6.0L coupled to an Allison 2000 series transmission, and seems to be the current favorite of UPS. I seem to remember rumors of a gas engine Spartan motorhome chassis, possibly using the PSI 8.8L, but at least for now Ford is the only player. Again, I think the 7.3L will be a big improvement over the 6.8L in motorhomes as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, SteelyD said: No use posting on here. This thread is reserved for the truck experts to show off their supposed knowledge of all except Ford. I could be off base here but, In 2016, GM spends $343 million on preparing its transmission plant for 10-speed production and then in 2019, a mere $20 million on production "expansion" to cover the HD gearbox's introduction. Interesting that a "totally unrelated" gearbox can be produced with relatively low funding..... I think GM is playing word games with the truth regarding the origin of its HD 10-speed, sure it's not a part of the 10-speed Joint venture but my understanding was that the Super Duty and Heavy Duty versions of those boxes were developed independently by the respective parents. Edited January 1, 2020 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarneyFord Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/stripped-chassis/models/f53-motorhome/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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