New Light & Medium Duty News

[7Mary3]

I think Ford is kind of stuck doing something with the old Econoline, as the Transit just isn't 'heavy duty' enough for some applications.

[twintornados]

Econoline / E-Series is Fords best answer to COE designs from competitors.

 

 

[Rick73]

8 hours ago, pffan1990 said:

I'm shocked that the E-Series has lasted this long. The basic cab design dates back to 1992 MY and the frame even older than that. I thought that this was going to go away at some point with another all-new commercial cutaway product in its place. But it seems that Ford has plans to keep the E-Series going. An all-new interior including usage of flat-screen would be good to reduce costs by sharing parts with Transit. While the cab may stay the same, they could redesign the entire A-pillar to front bumper section. Wider and longer fenders and longer hood. Perhaps even one-piece forward-tilting for ease of maintenance and repairs. This would be able to reduce the doghouse size and accommodate the larger engine with ease. The last time a diesel V8 engine was used was in the 2010 MY. The 6.7L turbo-diesel V8 engine would be able to fit with the new front end redesign. Surely the frame would have some updates too including the suspension bits. But I'm sure Ford wants to minimize the cost of the updates while having the updates substantial enough to stay competitive. So we'll see.

I did not expect E-Series to last this long either after reports Ford planned to discontinue soon after the 2014 MY.  There was a major upgrade in 2008 which included 5,000-pound front suspension and larger brakes, but that was a long time ago.  Perhaps Ford will now upgrade to F-Series suspension components that may also lower costs.  I think F-350 for example now has higher load Twin-I-Beam, larger brakes, 17-inch wheels and tires, etc.  Due to much lower E-Series volume, it is probably more expensive to keep older parts.

 

If upgrade ends up sharing some F-Series suspension bits, I hope it includes 4WD option.  I’m not a fan of Transit, but see its AWD option as one area where Transit beats E-Series.  At least for RV applications, Transit AWD and Sprinter 4WD (in prior years, now AWD) have been well received.  Even larger F-550/F-600 motorhomes are often 4WD.  Just seems a way to keep E-Series relevant for longer period.

 

To your point of moving engine forward to reduce doghouse size, that would be great if possible, but I’m not sure it is something Ford can do as long as E-Series keeps Twin-I-Beam front suspension; at least with present engine.  On my older E-Series with V10 (and likely on new V8 also) the oil sump would interfere.  Even without making the front end longer it may be possible to move the engine forward a couple of inches, but would require engine modification, and I don’t expect Ford will do that just for E-Series.  On the other hand, making doghouse narrower may not be as difficult.

[Bob Rosadini]

Just a thought if anything would be done, and if Ford is SERIOUS about commercial trucks, I would think a new cab structure that provides a new 650-750 cab structure that would also be utilized for the E would make sense.  As GM did years ago but in reverse-they used the van cab structure for their class 6 and 7's.

A cab with common components would eliminate a cab as well as offering good opportunity for better visibility in 650/750, perhaps a bit better BBC, and more room to make it more competitive with F'liner, International and the Paccars.

A fraction of the dollars that will be spent on Formula 1?

[tbone]

14 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Is this the rumor you are referring to? 

 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/02/updated-ford-e-series-currently-in-development/
 

If doing significant upgrades, two I hope Ford considers are a smaller engine doghouse for improved leg room, and also addition of 4WD.  Last year Ford introduced a revised doghouse, but it didn’t fully capitalize on 7.3L V8 being narrower than previous V10.  Extra foot room, particularly on passenger side, would be a great upgrade.

It can also use an upgrade on the exterior as well. It isn’t an attractive vehicle.  

[7Mary3]

16 hours ago, twintornados said:

Econoline / E-Series is Fords best answer to COE designs from competitors.

 

 

 

Ford comes up very short in that match.

[GearheadGrrrl]

9 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Just a thought if anything would be done, and if Ford is SERIOUS about commercial trucks, I would think a new cab structure that provides a new 650-750 cab structure that would also be utilized for the E would make sense.  As GM did years ago but in reverse-they used the van cab structure for their class 6 and 7's.

A cab with common components would eliminate a cab as well as offering good opportunity for better visibility in 650/750, perhaps a bit better BBC, and more room to make it more competitive with F'liner, International and the Paccars.

A fraction of the dollars that will be spent on Formula 1?

I was thinking of something similar- The volume of E series, F series heavies, and Stripped Chassis together must be around 50K a year which is enough to justify a unique cab.

[DeluxeStang]

10 hours ago, tbone said:

It can also use an upgrade on the exterior as well. It isn’t an attractive vehicle.  

Agreed but I'd imagine design appeal is probably the last thing commercial buyers care about sadly. 

[pffan1990]

 

16 hours ago, Rick73 said:

I did not expect E-Series to last this long either after reports Ford planned to discontinue soon after the 2014 MY.  There was a major upgrade in 2008 which included 5,000-pound front suspension and larger brakes, but that was a long time ago.  Perhaps Ford will now upgrade to F-Series suspension components that may also lower costs.  I think F-350 for example now has higher load Twin-I-Beam, larger brakes, 17-inch wheels and tires, etc.  Due to much lower E-Series volume, it is probably more expensive to keep older parts.

 

If upgrade ends up sharing some F-Series suspension bits, I hope it includes 4WD option.  I’m not a fan of Transit, but see its AWD option as one area where Transit beats E-Series.  At least for RV applications, Transit AWD and Sprinter 4WD (in prior years, now AWD) have been well received.  Even larger F-550/F-600 motorhomes are often 4WD.  Just seems a way to keep E-Series relevant for longer period.

 

To your point of moving engine forward to reduce doghouse size, that would be great if possible, but I’m not sure it is something Ford can do as long as E-Series keeps Twin-I-Beam front suspension; at least with present engine.  On my older E-Series with V10 (and likely on new V8 also) the oil sump would interfere.  Even without making the front end longer it may be possible to move the engine forward a couple of inches, but would require engine modification, and I don’t expect Ford will do that just for E-Series.  On the other hand, making doghouse narrower may not be as difficult.

 

Yes, you're correct that the last major update to the E-Series was done in 2008. That's also when the front styling and the interior changes were done at the time. Perhaps the reason why Ford chose to continue using the Twin-I-Beam front suspension on the 2WD of new 2023 F-250 and F-350 is that they intended to continue using it on the updated E-Series. Otherwise, Ford could have just made 4x4 standard on all Super Duty to keep costs low. Seems logical that the newly-updated F-Series TIB front suspension be carried over to the new E-Series. I'm surprised Ford never offered a factory 4x4 or even AWD system for the Econoline/E-Series. Now is their chance to do so to stay competitive.

 

I was just thinking out loud about moving engine forward but later realized that would cause more issues and add more expenses. The redesigned front (A-pillar to front bumper) end with new fenders, hood, grille/headlights/bumper should be good enough to provide more room. I do think the 7.3L gas V8 takes up a lot less space than the old V10 does to provide more interior space. Hopefully the update would provide fleet customers with better ease of maintenance and repairs within the engine bay. Surely the doghouse size could be reduced, if not eliminated altogether, with new interior. See below for other ideas regarding this solution.

 

12 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Just a thought if anything would be done, and if Ford is SERIOUS about commercial trucks, I would think a new cab structure that provides a new 650-750 cab structure that would also be utilized for the E would make sense.  As GM did years ago but in reverse-they used the van cab structure for their class 6 and 7's.

A cab with common components would eliminate a cab as well as offering good opportunity for better visibility in 650/750, perhaps a bit better BBC, and more room to make it more competitive with F'liner, International and the Paccars.

A fraction of the dollars that will be spent on Formula 1?

 

That's actually a good idea! Sharing the cab with Medium Duty and E-Series would reduce costs and be easier to produce. How about using the same aluminum cab from the newly-updated F-Series Super Duty Chassis Cab that's also produced at Avon Lake? They can use the same Super Duty cab for Medium Duty as-is in Chassis Cab form but use the one-piece flip nose hood. The new cab can be used on the E-Series with open back. The E-Series would need an adapter at the back of the new cab, to maintain the same curved sides as current E-Series cab back, so the current upfitters can still build their products from ambulance, shuttle bus, RV/motorhome, etc., with minimal changes, if needed.

The E-Series and E-Series-based Stripped Chassis (and F-59 Stripped Chassis too) can also receive all-new redesigned frame to keep it competitive for ICE as well as easily-adaptable for EV either in the aftermarket (such as Winnebago's EV experimentation) as well as Ford's own EV setup from the factory. A great way to future-proof the new frame to prepare for when it gets time to start shifting away from ICE towards EVs before a true EV-based Stripped Chassis platform arrives at some point. As long as the redesigned frame maintains the same dimensions, from same wheelbase as well as same back-of-cab-to-rear-axle length as current E-Series, for the upfitters to continue producing their products. While at it, Ford could offer Super Duty's 4-door crew cab on the E-Series which would be great for some markets. Imagine the C-class RV market expanding to include crew cab E-Series with longer over-the-roof sleeper area, for one example.

It may be that Ford simply plans on doing a very mild update to stay competitive at least through this decade. Or Ford could surprise us with major updates that would blow the competition away. We'll see.

Edited February 12, 2023 by pffan1990
Added a few things.

[twintornados]

There are some sharing options already done between F-650/750 and E-Series...they share headlights

[twintornados]

11 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Ford comes up very short in that match.

 

Not if they come back out with E-550

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, twintornados said:

There are some sharing options already done between F-650/750 and E-Series...they share headlights

The 7.3L V8 and 6R140?

 

2 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Not if they come back out with E-550

 

I don’t expect to see an all-new E-Series cab, but if Ford went that direction, I wonder if they would make it much wider not only to make it roomier, but also to accommodate a wider front track like that of E-550?  Original E-Series dimensions were limited by an 80-inch-wide van body, but if all E-Series are now Cutaway used mostly on vehicles that are 96~102 inches in width, a much wider cab could have significant added value.

 

An RV engineer told me his company would never build smaller Class A motorhomes on the E-Series stripped chassis because the front track was too narrow, and would make motorhome look goofy.  If Ford keeps existing E-Series cab as I expect, perhaps they can offer a wider front axle on stripped chassis (with coil springs borrowed from F-Series).

[twintornados]

7 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Not if they come back out with E-550

 

Picture added for impact.

 

[twintornados]

5 hours ago, Rick73 said:

I don’t expect to see an all-new E-Series cab, but if Ford went that direction, I wonder if they would make it much wider not only to make it roomier, but also to accommodate a wider front track like that of E-550?  Original E-Series dimensions were limited by an 80-inch-wide van body, but if all E-Series are now Cutaway used mostly on vehicles that are 96~102 inches in width, a much wider cab could have significant added value.

 

Isuzu NPR (E-Series competitor.) cab dimensions

 

[7Mary3]

9 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

Not if they come back out with E-550

 

In order to be competitive with the NPR/NQR/NRR, Ford would need a new diesel engine around 5L (6.7L is too inefficient), a complete cab option (E series is only a cut-away), a crew cab option, chassis/axles to support up to a 19,500# GVW, and a wheelbase long enough for a 20' body.  That's asking a bit much out of the old E series!  On the smaller end of NPR applications the E-450 is competitive to a point, but basically this is an apples to oranges comparison. 

 

Over the years I have been something of an informal Isuzu salesman.  I have recommended Isuzu's to people asking my advice on medium duty class 4 and 5 trucks and without exception those that bought Isuzu's were completely satisfied.  You just can't beat them for reliablilty and low overall cost of ownership.  I am told they have great resale, but no one I know has ever wanted to sell one....... 

Edited February 12, 2023 by 7Mary3

[Bob Rosadini]

31 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

In order to be competitive with the NPR/NQR/NRR, Ford would a new diesel engine around 5L (6.7L is too inefficient), a complete cab option (E series is only a cut-away), a crew cab option, chassis/axles to support up to a 19,500# GVW, and a wheelbase long enough for a 20' body.  That's asking a bit much out of the old E series!  On the smaller end of NPR applications the E-450 is competitive to a point, but basically this is an apples to oranges comparison. 

 

Over the years I have been something of an informal Isuzu salesman.  I have recommended Isuzu's to people asking my advice on medium duty class 4 and 5 trucks and without exception those that bought Isuzu's were completely satisfied.  You just can't beat them for reliablilty and low overall cost of ownership.  I am told they have great resale, but no one I know has ever wanted to sell one....... 

Hah! Suspicions confirmed.?  But you are right!  I have never heard anyone with a realistic negative opinion. 

And as the owner of two Yanmar diesels I have to say, the Japanese do a good job when it comes to diesels.  And as to vehicles in general, while most of us are loyal to Ford, face the fact, or at least speaking for my self, I was brainwashed as a kid...Anything "He" built was good!  The "He" of course was Henry!

[rmc523]

On 2/11/2023 at 12:25 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

Just a thought if anything would be done, and if Ford is SERIOUS about commercial trucks, I would think a new cab structure that provides a new 650-750 cab structure that would also be utilized for the E would make sense.  As GM did years ago but in reverse-they used the van cab structure for their class 6 and 7's.

A cab with common components would eliminate a cab as well as offering good opportunity for better visibility in 650/750, perhaps a bit better BBC, and more room to make it more competitive with F'liner, International and the Paccars.

A fraction of the dollars that will be spent on Formula 1?

 

Isn't this what folks in this thread have been suggesting for years?  A single cab for E/F-650/-F750?

 

---

 

Given how little they've done with it over the years, I won't be surprised if they keep the same cab shape, and just give it some styling cues from the current lineup, and a different dash, sharing more parts with current models.

[GearheadGrrrl]

On 2/11/2023 at 11:25 AM, Bob Rosadini said:

Just a thought if anything would be done, and if Ford is SERIOUS about commercial trucks, I would think a new cab structure that provides a new 650-750 cab structure that would also be utilized for the E would make sense.  As GM did years ago but in reverse-they used the van cab structure for their class 6 and 7's.

A cab with common components would eliminate a cab as well as offering good opportunity for better visibility in 650/750, perhaps a bit better BBC, and more room to make it more competitive with F'liner, International and the Paccars.

A fraction of the dollars that will be spent on Formula 1?

I was thinking of something similar- The volume of E series, F series heavies, and Stripped Chassis together must be around 50K a year which is enough to justify a unique cab.

[Bob Rosadini]

9 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Isn't this what folks in this thread have been suggesting for years?  A single cab for E/F-650/-F750?

 

---

 

Given how little they've done with it over the years, I won't be surprised if they keep the same cab shape, and just give it some styling cues from the current lineup, and a different dash, sharing more parts with current models.

For sure. usually I qualify my statement with .."not to sound like a broken record"? But it falls on deaf ears..but if the tooling  for E series is shot, maybe now is the time.??

[Rick73]

On 2/12/2023 at 2:41 PM, twintornados said:

 

Picture added for impact.

 

Interesting how Ford made room for much larger 19.5” wheels and tires on the E-550.  In addition to a significant lift, it appears from side view that the front axle was moved forward about 1-1/2 inches (based on wheelbase in specs, assuming they held CA dimension the same).  If Ford limits revisions mostly forward of A pillar, it will be interesting to see if the front overhang is extended closer to Chevy Express (5” longer) or Tansit (almost 6” longer).  A longer front end would allow using larger-diameter tires from F-350 and F-450.

 

I’m also curious if update will be planned to accommodate possible future electrification of E-Series?  The E-Transit Cutaway is much more limited in GVWR and payload.  

 

[7Mary3]

I always wondered what the story was behind the E-550.  It was available for something like 6 months, supposedly built to satisfy a particular fleet customer.  I remember seeing one E-550, one of the studios had it.  GM build a very similar truck, the P-30 Cut-away, from '91 to '96.  Saw a few of those, made a nice motorhome chassis.      

[zipnzap]

Seems the GM vans are the only ones that grew within the segment last year:

 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/02/ford-transit-sales-numbers-results-2022-calendar-year/

[zipnzap]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:06 PM, 7Mary3 said:

I always wondered what the story was behind the E-550.  It was available for something like 6 months, supposedly built to satisfy a particular fleet customer.  I remember seeing one E-550, one of the studios had it.  GM build a very similar truck, the P-30 Cut-away, from '91 to '96.  Saw a few of those, made a nice motorhome chassis.      

Weren't the early 90's Chevy vans unibody?

[7Mary3]

3 hours ago, zipnzap said:

Weren't the early 90's Chevy vans unibody?

 

The P-30 cut-away wasn't.  The cab was borrowed from the G series van, but it had a composite tip front front end.  Kind of like the later TopKick/Kodiak:

 

https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/cc-cohort/cohort-pick-of-the-day-lazy-daze-class-c-rv-on-chevy-g30-hd-chassis-why-didnt-all-big-vans-have-tilt-hoods/

Edited February 16, 2023 by 7Mary3

[bzcat]

On 2/16/2023 at 11:55 AM, zipnzap said:

Seems the GM vans are the only ones that grew within the segment last year:

 

https://fordauthority.com/2023/02/ford-transit-sales-numbers-results-2022-calendar-year/

 

Seems like a strange article to be writing about van sales and exclude Sprinter. 

 

GM's sales increase basically tracked Nissan's decline. If you want a thirsty V8 in your van, you only got one place to go now.

 

I'm really curious about the E-series update posted up thread.