SoonerLS Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) So, there's a good chance it's going to be viewed as a downgrade at an upgrade price here. That might be true, but for the type of buyer they're trying to get with these, they may be just as likely to see it as an upgrade. It's not an upgrade to a car guy, but to a person who's interested in getting the gas mileage (hypermilers, f'rinstance), maybe it is. After all, Ford is selling Foci as premium cars now; who'd have thought, just a few years ago, that you could get north of $30K for a compact? Edited February 25, 2014 by SoonerLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Regarding the bolded part, I don't mean to sound like Richard, but... sources? No source on actual numbers, but I don't get any indication from Ford that they are planning to change the pricing strategy on those vehicles (in fact, they are expanding it to other vehicles as is being discussed here), so whatever volumes they are getting, it appears, at least for now, they are comfortable with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 In other markets, the 1.0EB is replacing the NA 1.6. I get that. However, there is no such replacement happening in the US where the least powerful engine is the NA 2.0. So, there's a good chance it's going to be viewed as a downgrade at an upgrade price here. When you pay more for a hybrid (and, not to drag out another thread's argument, but a diesel also), you're also subsidizing the development and the complexity of the powerplant. There's no added complexity with an engine that's missing a cylinder (by default, there's less). One more thing... reviews that I read, particularly from Autoblog, state that the 1.0EB uses premium (required) in Europe. Will that be the case here? It has nothing to do with production costs and everything to do with marketing. Ford believes customers are willing to pay extra for better fuel efficiency so they're charging more. The engine itself is much more complex than a NA engine even if it has one less cylinder. In the past the only real difference between engines was power and bigger was better and more desirable to the general public. Today fuel efficiency has become even more important to the average buyer than hp, thus the upcharge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 It has nothing to do with production costs and everything to do with marketing. Ford believes customers are willing to pay extra for better fuel efficiency so they're charging more. The engine itself is much more complex than a NA engine even if it has one less cylinder. In the past the only real difference between engines was power and bigger was better and more desirable to the general public. Today fuel efficiency has become even more important to the average buyer than hp, thus the upcharge. In the past, too, there was the understanding that, with ICEs, the less powerful yet more efficient engine was also the cheaper option. There's going to have to be a huge paradigm shift with a powerplant that doesn't have the whiz-bang factor of a hybrid or the hipster factor of a small diesel. I mean, if it works out for Ford, great. If it doesn't, this will be my surprised face. Also, you mention the "average buyer." Interestingly enough, today the "average buyer" can't drive manual. Also, unless something changes between the European engine and what we get (which I would expect to have implications for the rated power and efficiency of the engine), the "average buyer" doesn't like paying for premium fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 For consistency's sake, I also called it a dumb idea as it applied to the Taurus, Edge, and Explorer. Not the engine, just the pricing. Regarding the bolded part, I don't mean to sound like Richard, but... sources? there another way of looking at it, it IS an upgrade to the 1.6 in the Fiestas sake, torque takes a nice bump, and then theres the fact a Manual eco will come in almost the SAME $ as a DCT 1.6.....so, in some ways its a wash, the Auto runs basically the same as the 1.0... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 In the past, too, there was the understanding that, with ICEs, the less powerful yet more efficient engine was also the cheaper option. There's going to have to be a huge paradigm shift with a powerplant that doesn't have the whiz-bang factor of a hybrid or the hipster factor of a small diesel. I mean, if it works out for Ford, great. If it doesn't, this will be my surprised face. Also, you mention the "average buyer." Interestingly enough, today the "average buyer" can't drive manual. Also, unless something changes between the European engine and what we get (which I would expect to have implications for the rated power and efficiency of the engine), the "average buyer" doesn't like paying for premium fuel. interestingly there was an article i read stating people would be BETTER drivers if they drove stick shifts...something I COMPLETELY agree with... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 interestingly there was an article i read stating people would be BETTER drivers if they drove stick shifts...something I COMPLETELY agree with... Well, with a stick you certainly have to maintain a slightly more active connection with your vehicle...and it's far more difficult to hold things in your hands while doing so. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Every Ecoboost engine will run on regular, the result is a slight reduction of full throttle torque and Horsepower in Overboost mode. I'll put this as simply as I can, you can get an EB 1.0 Fiesta SE for under $17,000 so an Ecoboost 1.0 in a Focus SE for just under $20K that gets around 30/44 mpg and costs around $4,000 or $5,00 less than a Prius hybrid or Diesel Cruze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Only offering it with a manual means one of 3 things (or a combination) They haven't had time to certify the automatic version The automatic tranny isn't ready yet There is a supply problem with the 1.0L so they can't afford to sell a lot of them yet I'm leaning towards the last one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 In the past, too, there was the understanding that, with ICEs, the less powerful yet more efficient engine was also the cheaper option. There's going to have to be a huge paradigm shift with a powerplant that doesn't have the whiz-bang factor of a hybrid or the hipster factor of a small diesel. I mean, if it works out for Ford, great. If it doesn't, this will be my surprised face. Also, you mention the "average buyer." Interestingly enough, today the "average buyer" can't drive manual. Also, unless something changes between the European engine and what we get (which I would expect to have implications for the rated power and efficiency of the engine), the "average buyer" doesn't like paying for premium fuel. In the past, gas wasn't close to $4/gallon. In the past nobody would have paid much extra for a hybrid or BEV vehicle because gas was cheap. And Ford has already been down this road with the Fusion 1.6L EB and Fiesta 1.0L EB so I'm assuming they know what they're doing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) there another way of looking at it, it IS an upgrade to the 1.6 in the Fiestas sake, torque takes a nice bump, and then theres the fact a Manual eco will come in almost the SAME $ as a DCT 1.6.....so, in some ways its a wash, the Auto runs basically the same as the 1.0... Because of all that, I have no problem with the engine in the Fiesta at all. interestingly there was an article i read stating people would be BETTER drivers if they drove stick shifts...something I COMPLETELY agree with... What's funny is that I know bad auto drivers and good manual drivers... and I have seen good auto drivers and bad manual drivers. It all depends on the space between the ears, not the activity of the limbs. In the past, gas wasn't close to $4/gallon. In the past nobody would have paid much extra for a hybrid or BEV vehicle because gas was cheap. And Ford has already been down this road with the Fusion 1.6L EB and Fiesta 1.0L EB so I'm assuming they know what they're doing here. Prius sales were taking off years before gas first spiked to $4/gal back in 2008. The introduction of the 2nd-gen bodystyle definitely helped them. Fusion 1.6EB is an easy upgrade from the 2.5 because it's more powerful AND more efficient. Same with the 1.0EB against the 1.6 in the Fiesta. There's no such comparison to be had with the Focus. Edited February 25, 2014 by papilgee4evaeva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I don't see people buying a Focus or Fiesta non-ST model looking at hp. I think you're underestimating the number of folks who would be willing to pay extra for better fuel economy. Edited February 25, 2014 by akirby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) I don't see people buying a Focus or Fiesta non-ST model looking at hp. I think you're underestimating the number of folks who would be willing to pay extra for better fuel economy. They'll pay extra if it's an appreciable increase with little to no sacrifice in driveability, I'd wager (or, in the case of full hybrids, a dramatic increase). I mean, you can already approach 40 mpg highway in most Focuses not named ST. I don't think 43 (arbitrary number, but work with me) would get it for the extra money, especially if you have to hypermile to see those numbers. Edited February 25, 2014 by papilgee4evaeva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 As somebody that drives 100+ miles a day, I would pay a nominal fee for better mileage. And my first Focus had a manual and 110hp and was plenty quick and merged onto the expressway with no problems. I want mileage, not drag racing ability. Bring on the 1.0. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Well somebody is paying extra for it today so there must be a valid reason or Ford wouldn't be doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) This whole discussion, one way or the other, will be vindicated by two things: 1) the official EPA MPG, and 2) the sales rate. I'll gladly eat my hat (figuratively, since I don't own hats anymore because of my hair) if both are good. Edited February 26, 2014 by papilgee4evaeva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Edit, the Fact that Ford sees a valid business case to add incremental product is vindication enough. In other parts of the world, the 1.0 EB replaces 1.6 TiVCT for a power and economy improvement. Edited February 26, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Today fuel efficiency has become even more important to the average buyer than hp, thus the upcharge. And yet, people are considered foolish for paying upcharges to buy a diesel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 And yet, people are considered foolish for paying upcharges to buy a diesel. It could be foolish, depending on the price of diesel in your area and the actual price of the upcharge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Prius sales were taking off years before gas first spiked to $4/gal back in 2008. The introduction of the 2nd-gen bodystyle definitely helped them. First generation Prius sales were pretty miniscule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 First generation Prius sales were pretty miniscule. The 2nd gen came out for MY 2003. Between 2003 and 2009, they sold over 1.2 million of those little buggers (ww). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Edit, the Fact that Ford sees a valid business case to add incremental product is vindication enough. In other parts of the world, the 1.0 EB replaces 1.6 TiVCT for a power and economy improvement. Ford's had some recent fails where they thought they had business cases before. It is very possible that this is another, which is why we'll wait and see. And in the Focus here, what is the engine replacing? There's no engine below the 2.0 in the Focus, so it's not a straight-across comparison. OR -- and I just thought of this -- what if the engine is a CAFE grab? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 The 2nd gen came out for MY 2003. Between 2003 and 2009, they sold over 1.2 million of those little buggers (ww). Oh I know the 2nd gen did well, but the first gen was barely more than a slightly more efficient Corolla. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Ford's had some recent fails where they thought they had business cases before. It is very possible that this is another, which is why we'll wait and see. And in the Focus here, what is the engine replacing? There's no engine below the 2.0 in the Focus, so it's not a straight-across comparison. OR -- and I just thought of this -- what if the engine is a CAFE grab? I think it would be stupid NOT to think that this move is highly influenced by CAFE in every vehicle. Ford has several years of experience pricing and marketing the EB engines, so it's not like this is uncharted territory. And as I already pointed out, they may be TRYING to limit sales volume of the new engine due to supply constraints or other issues. Either way, I presume they know what they're doing and if it doesn't work out the way they planned then it's easy enough to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 It could be foolish, depending on the price of diesel in your area and the actual price of the upcharge. Ding ding ding!! The upcharge for a diesel is usually an order of magnitude more than for an EB. You know, like 3-5k vs 1k. When you pay extra for fuel economy with an EB, you don't have the 20-30% premium you have to pay for the fuel like you do with a diesel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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