theoldwizard Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Wow. It looks like there is no more Cummins diesels, Allison automatic or other manual transmissions. Interesting spin Ford is putting on this, as if it was an advantage. I think a lot of fleets will not quite see it that way. Ford also seems to have a lot of faith in the Torq-Shift transmission, it will be very interesting to see max. GCW's on these trucks, particularly the tractors. Looks like it might be the half-effort we were all afraid of, we will have to wait and see exactly what will be offered and how the trucks can be configured. I just hope for the sake of the Avon Lake employees that the thing will be around for awhile. My read on the "Ford only" powertrain is, it will maximize profits. I don't believe that CNG or LPG will actually be installed "at the factory". Ford will likely continue it "Gaseous Fuel Prep" option and leave the real work to the after market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Please tell me there will be more ratings for the 6.7L Powerstroke in these trucks other than 270 h.p./600 ft. lbs.. It did say 'starting at'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 It did say 'starting at'. Correct- I saw a video featuring the power train engineer mgr. Without getting into specifics, if you listen to this guy, the 650/750 version has mods that separate it from other 6.7's . Also there are 3 HP versions. Have to believe the 440 version will not be one of them unless its an emergency vehicle application-specifically ambulance?- And to OlWiz' point, the gaseous versions are prep packages only-still has to go to Roush or someone else- seems to me with all the hype associated with CNG/LNG/LPG they would want to do something about that. And I guess after my rant on the dedicated Ford powertrain, I have to recognize-"No, ABF or Old Dominion won't be buying any of these". At least at this point and with this step. In talking to a dealer friend of mine, he is thrilled with the idea of an exclusive in house power train. As he put it, he is tired of squabbles with Cummins saying its Allison's problem and Allison saying the reverse. I guess there is something to be said for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Now that IS big news-is that a fact or rumor? If fact why didn't they put that in the press release??? Does that apply to ALL applications and HP ratings? That is what the "naysayers"-like myself-have to hear. It is in the press release (but not on the promo website) . I would assume it applies to all configurations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I don't think the competition is resting TOO easy just yet Bob! Now that Ford is offering a tractor model, they might be pacing just a little! Ford had to go in-house: All the other guys have in-house drivetrains except maybe for the Allison tranny. Also, International is getting out of the loose engine biz. And like someone said, all Ford needs to do is team up with Bluebird and put an F750 (B750) cowl/chassis out there with a sloping hood like the current Bluebird Vision bus and voila! So then you'd have Freightliner/Thomas,International/IC, and Ford/Bluebird. Bluebird is aggressively advertising the Ford-Roush propane engine alternative in School Bus Magazine. The only thing now is Ford has to go full tilt and not back down. They have to back up their product. This could be the start of something big! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94bronco Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 The V-10/Torqueshift has been available for quite a while now in 650 and has been selling well-at 26,000lbs GVW or less. It can make sense for those who have low annual mileage and minimal gross weight Yes, but only with the 5 speed torqshift and not the 6 speed that started in 2011 in Super Duties. This is the first application of the V10 with the new transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I don't think the competition is resting TOO easy just yet Bob! Now that Ford is offering a tractor model, they might be pacing just a little! Ford had to go in-house: All the other guys have in-house drivetrains except maybe for the Allison tranny. Also, International is getting out of the loose engine biz. And like someone said, all Ford needs to do is team up with Bluebird and put an F750 (B750) cowl/chassis out there with a sloping hood like the current Bluebird Vision bus and voila! So then you'd have Freightliner/Thomas,International/IC, and Ford/Bluebird. Bluebird is aggressively advertising the Ford-Roush propane engine alternative in School Bus Magazine. The only thing now is Ford has to go full tilt and not back down. They have to back up their product. This could be the start of something big! Well Joe you may have something with the school bus issue. I don't know if providing a cowl/chassis has all kinds of regulatory issues that have to be addressed-if not should be easy way to crank out more powertrains -remember the "old days" when the C-6 was a very popular trans in school buses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Yes, but only with the 5 speed torqshift and not the 6 speed that started in 2011 in Super Duties. This is the first application of the V10 with the new transmission. thx-shows you what I know- I thought the first one was a 6spd. In any case my dealer friend told me today this 6 speed that will be used with the PS in the 750 is a much modified unit. Hope he is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGolden Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 A fleet near me has all DODGE diesels, and 3 - F650/750 6.7/Allison trucks. They went for the common powertrain/engine fleet. The Allison is having durability issues and they are not happy. I think Ford was already ahead of Allison/GM in the F550- under class with the transmission, as far as durability. Lets see how they compete in the big trucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 On school busses, that is a very price competetive market. That is why the consolidations took place - when the chassis builders were separate from the body builders it got to the point that there was not enough margin for anyone to make money. In Ohio many school busses are bought under state contract - the individual districts align their specs and pool their orders. The state then goes out for bids playing hardball - a potential order for hundreds of school busses forces the bus builders to go in with extra sharp pencils. And on fuels for those busses, in some states it will require a change in state law to fuel them with anything but diesel. And that goes back to that horrible disaster on I 71 in Kentucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 And on powertrains, I see where Ford is coming from. In house is preferred for simplicity and bottom line reasons. The Powerstroke has the displacement for most of class 6 and 7. And Ford is confident of the durability given the warranty offered. So it is just a matter of how the market accepts it - time will tell. The one thing that I wonder about is a larger displacement engine for the "heavier" vocational uses. Most new heavy ambulances around here (on heavy 6 / light 7 cab and chassis) use the Cummins ISL9. In fact, I think that engine is written into the purchasing specs in a few places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 And on powertrains, I see where Ford is coming from. In house is preferred for simplicity and bottom line reasons. The Powerstroke has the displacement for most of class 6 and 7. And Ford is confident of the durability given the warranty offered. So it is just a matter of how the market accepts it - time will tell. The one thing that I wonder about is a larger displacement engine for the "heavier" vocational uses. Most new heavy ambulances around here (on heavy 6 / light 7 cab and chassis) use the Cummins ISL9. In fact, I think that engine is written into the purchasing specs in a few places. One other point on the "new" 6.7. In reading some of the press release, I got the impression that there is something "new" in the form of premium components that make the 6.7 suitable for a 33,000 lb GVW (or a 37,000 lb GVW if they continue to maintain the 14/23 axle availability). However in reading the press release on the new 2015 Super Duty, it refers to the 440 HP rating as a product of a bigger turbo and different injectors. Yes I can see how ramming more fuel through the engine will generate higher HP/torque numbers- but what are the durability improvements ??? As for your point on ambulance service, my small town (pop.4000+) has had two Power Strokes in a row-last one a 6.0) well they have put in for a new one-at $240,000! I assume they plan on doing open heart surgery in this thing but aside from that for sure, most departments around here are going with Navistar 4400's. Trend seems to be bigger and bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Not sure how these differ in terms of engine load, but the 6.7 is already powering a roughly 37,000 GCWR configuration on the new F-450 with its 31k trailer rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 One other point on the "new" 6.7. In reading some of the press release, I got the impression that there is something "new" in the form of premium components that make the 6.7 suitable for a 33,000 lb GVW (or a 37,000 lb GVW if they continue to maintain the 14/23 axle availability). However in reading the press release on the new 2015 Super Duty, it refers to the 440 HP rating as a product of a bigger turbo and different injectors. Yes I can see how ramming more fuel through the engine will generate higher HP/torque numbers- but what are the durability improvements ??? As for your point on ambulance service, my small town (pop.4000+) has had two Power Strokes in a row-last one a 6.0) well they have put in for a new one-at $240,000! I assume they plan on doing open heart surgery in this thing but aside from that for sure, most departments around here are going with Navistar 4400's. Trend seems to be bigger and bigger. I read something (can't remember where) that was pointing at the 450 getting an engine with beefier components from the 650-750 line. Maybe I misread it, but that's what I got out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Not sure how these differ in terms of engine load, but the 6.7 is already powering a roughly 37,000 GCWR configuration on the new F-450 with its 31k trailer rating. Not sure about that either-my guess is from strictly an engine loading perspective, gross weight impact on engine has tyo be the same-regardless if its on two axles in a truck configuration or in a tractor or pulling application with say two more towed axles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I read something (can't remember where) that was pointing at the 450 getting an engine with beefier components from the 650-750 line. Maybe I misread it, but that's what I got out of it. Well that is encouraging-would be nice to know that in fact there are some durability mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Well that is encouraging-would be nice to know that in fact there are some durability mods. When they announced the upgrade back in September, they talked about the durability improvements: Increased horsepower and torque necessitates a handful of enhancements for the Ford Power Stroke including: a new torque converter for the 6R140 TorqShift six-speed transmission; improved crankshaft fillet design; increased crankshaft damper weight; new five-layer head gasket; added material to cylinder heads, exhaust manifold and valvetrain; redesigned turbo oil and cooling lines; piston assembly upgrades; and four-layer exhaust manifold gasket. Read more: http://www.dieselpowermag.com/news/1309_2015_ford_super_duty_receives_6_7l_power_stroke_upgrade/#ixzz2vNi73FYq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 When they announced the upgrade back in September, they talked about the durability improvements: Thx for the info. This IMO is the kind of info that should have been included in all the press releases. Ford still has a lot of people out there with a bad taste in their mouth from 6.0/6.4 Issues. Not only is the 6.7 a totally new ford built motor, its on its second generation...."and the following internal improvements have been made to support the higher HP and torque ratings". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Yeah, it sounds like the 6.7 has gone a long way towards repairing the damage caused by earlier diesels, hopefully the improvements will see more sales of larger F650 and 750 but I'm also keen to know more about how much the 6.8 has had lifted those sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Yeah, it sounds like the 6.7 has gone a long way towards repairing the damage caused by earlier diesels, hopefully the improvements will see more sales of larger F650 and 750 but I'm also keen to know more about how much the 6.8 has had lifted those sales. No doubt gas 650's are I would bet the lion's share of the gain. My dealer friend told me Ford has been very good about allocating gas 650's to dealers as U-Haul wanted the entire first year run and Ford did not agree to that. He by the way is very satisfied with the gas 650. He has sold a fair number of dump trucks and the engine handles the 26,000 lb. GVW with no issue. time will tell as to durability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Ford to shift medium-duty truck production from Mexico to Ohio http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-to-shift-medium-duty-truck-production-from-mexico-to-ohio.html Ford has confirmed plans to shift production of its 2016 F-650 and F-750 medium-duty trucks from Mexico to the United States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) About the seemingly orphaned 6.2L BOSS motor....I think since it shares many architectural features with 6.8L Triton...at some point in the future, these designs should be melded together to streamline the truck engine lineup. While they are at it, since naming the engine is as important as marketing it, change the name from BOSS to ECO-MAXX line of gasoline engines with direct injection and other advanced features. BOSS (nee: Hurricane) and Triton share many design features, but BOSS has a wider bore spacing and twin spark plug design heads and two valves per cylinder in a more efficient layout as well as a cast iron block for increased durability.Bring the newly merged design down to 5.8L for the V-8, and 7.0L for the V-10. Bore spacing would more than handle the changes. Imagine the increase in durability in the V-10 line with the advancements gleaned from Hurricane/BOSS development. Edited March 9, 2014 by twintornados 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I realize Ford is trying to keep costs down by using as much of the tooling of the Super Duty cab as possible, but as someone already has mentioned in here, the windshield eventually needs to be more vertical/taller like Freightliners and Internationals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) And to OlWiz' point, the gaseous versions are prep packages only-still has to go to Roush or someone else- seems to me with all the hype associated with CNG/LNG/LPG they would want to do something about that. Just to clarify Bob's statement. Roush currently only does propane (LPG) conversions. If you believe Westport (who seems to be backing away from from the light duty market after a spending spree over the past couple of years), LNG is is fading in favor of CNG, even in Class 8 ! LNG installations are INCREDIBLY expensive starting with requiring an extra long frame for the the tractor to mount the tank. Cummins/Westport makes a converted spark ignited 12L natural gas only engine that, according to them, is selling well.. It would require 6-8 CNG tanks to get any kind of decent range for anything but city service. Edited March 10, 2014 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pictor Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 (edited) I am not an engineer but I would think with the mandate for greater fuel economy windshields on trucks will be getting less vertical for better aerodynamics. It seems funny that in Europe which has all those small sleek cars, their trucks are for the most part big square blocks on wheels. Edited March 10, 2014 by pictor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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