Mullaly Wanted to Kill Lincoln !

[grbeck]

Ford management certainly didn't do Mercury any favors over the years. Considering what has happened to most of the old-line medium-price brands, however, it's obvious that something more than mere management incompetence was at play here.

 

Dodge - survives because it invaded the low-price field in 1960, and essentially pushed Plymouth out of the nest and took its place as the corporation's low-price brand.

 

Chrysler - survives because its name is also on the corporate building.

 

Pontiac - dead.

 

Oldsmobile - dead.

 

Buick - would be dead, except for healthy sales in China and GMC dealers wanting to sell some passenger cars. Its current North American sales, however, are far below the level achieved during the brand's heyday.

 

First, the low-price brands moved up with cars like the four-seat Thunderbird, LTD and Caprice. Then the European luxury brands moved aggressively down with subsidized leases. Lexus found its groove by selling better Buicks and Oldsmobiles to people who wouldn't be caught dead in the real thing. Finally, plenty of domestic loyalists decided that they would rather move up to a fancy, loaded full-size pickup than a more expensive car.

 

The old domestic medium-price brands were just squeezed out of the market.

Edited July 1, 2014 by grbeck

[akirby]

The question is not - can you make a case for Mercury (or GMC or Buick or Scion). You can almost always make an individual case for something if you try hard enough.

 

e.g. - I can make a business case for Mercury to sell 3 vehicles and turn a profit of $100M over 10 years including the cost to relaunch the brand. If that's all you looked at you might greenlight it assuming the plan was sound.

 

However - what if you also looked at building the exact same 3 vehicles but selling 2 of them with a Ford badge and 1 of them with a Lincoln badge. If the gross profit on each vehicle was the same you'd make way more than $100M because you wouldn't have to spend all that money on setting up and managing a new brand. So instead of $100M you make $3B.

 

That's the kind of thinking that Mulally brought to Ford and which sadly is lacking at GM (and to a slightly lesser degree at Chrysler).

[Deanh]

 

Yeah, since that worked so well.

 

Mercury served no purpose as it was, and it would be more difficult to manage three brand images instead of two.

 

Toyota/Lexus/Scion is one example. Toyota and Lexus are successful while Scion languishes. All of Scion's models likely would sell better with a Toyota logo on the trunk lid. The same holds true for what any Mercury would do if it instead had a Ford logo on it.

I would be curious to compare Scions initial MSRPS to todays...IMO they pulled an Isuzu....

[2b2]

^^ akirby, you know the saying?:

"there's lies ...damn lies ...and then statistics"

 

Only if knew one of your children was going to kill the other and then himself. More like justifable homicide or euthanasia, if you ask me.

schmoderator Nostrodamus ... what if you're wrong?

 

 

I'll agree that the "point" of Mercury wasn't rendered irrelevant--it was the brand itself that was rendered irrelevant by the Titanium Fords. The Titanium trims covered the same market segments with minimal investment on Ford's part.

imho it's demonstratable that FoMoCo's already put a LOT more effort into Titanium

than they put into Merc for DECADES

 

...Chrysler - survives because its name is also on the corporate building...

like some of my oldest rants about "Ford"

VS "Henry(-or Alan-) Mercury" or "Henry Lincoln"

 

 

Mercury started out as a deluxe Ford with a wheelbase stretch. From that beginning, it became a whole division.

 

Well, delusional management destroyed that division...

...IF Mercury had not been run into the ground, it might have done very well, but Jac came along, and here we are.

+

(for those who don't know - see how "long" ago Merc sold over 500k...)

 

...and changing market conditions have eliminated the necessity for a mid-price brand in North America...

au contraire!!!

EVERY Brand, including MumBle, BuMble(w), H/K, and F/L

are rushing to populate the 'flation'-adjusted Mid-Priced-Premium segment...

...heck, GM has all 3½ of its remain Nameplates** tripping-over eachother there

(** +Opel +Holden ...they got any more left?)

 

...But, maybe one day, Ford will bring back a "Mercury" as a specific model. Maybe Lincoln could call its Mustang derivative a Mercury?

Oooooöooooooo

I like that better than calling it the Lincoln-Cougar (tho not a much as "Lincoln Zodiac(s)")

but

imho that doesn't do Merc's-potential justice

[papilgee4evaeva]

au contraire!!!

EVERY Brand, including MumBle, BuMble(w), H/K, and F/L

are rushing to populate the 'flation'-adjusted Mid-Priced-Premium segment...

...heck, GM has all 3½ of its remain Nameplates** tripping-over eachother there

(** +Opel +Holden ...they got any more left?)

 

Bad comparison. Are any of these companies trying to (re)establish intermediate marques to cover that market? (hint: "no")

 

Furthermore, Hyundai's mission is to go full luxury with the Genesis and Equus over the next few years, not create a "mid-priced" line. BMW's "mid-priced" offerings... are all going to be SMALL, just like Mercedes CLA and Audi A3. You won't be seeing a mid-priced 5, E, or A6 equivalent from those brands. Ever. (Well, unless you go over to Europe and order those vehicles with puny engines and cloth/vinyl seats.)

 

The obviation of Mercury for the past few decades up until their demise has been hashed, rehashed, chopped, and pureed. I know you love the brand, but it lost any purpose it may have had in its 500k days (sidenote: the market was WAY different at that time). Same with Pontiac, Saturn, and Oldsmobile for that matter.

[AlRozzi]

 

On what basis? What advantage do you gain by having Mercury in between? Any lower end Mercury can be sold just as effectively as a Ford and the higher end models can be sold as Lincolns. All you'd be doing is splitting the same pie 3 ways instead of 2.

I did not intend to bring the Mercury debate back to life and the brand name is never going to return anyway, but I am a believer in meaningful branding. Marchionne has gone too far with FCA, but distinction can bring clarity to the consumer.

 

I mentioned LM more for the sake of Lincoln and what it is today. I would focus Lincoln at a higher price range and stick to a few, well-difined core models. Most brands get 50% or more of its volume out of 2 or 3 models anyway, so in Lincoln's case, why try to have a full range of offerings?

 

It seems it is going to take much time to rebuild Lincoln volume so it would have made sense to me to have kept Mercury at its relatively narrowed product line, positioned below Lincoln. I realize the brands were damaged in recent years, so I don't think it is relevant to judge the dual brand viability by what they had become.

 

Individual models within a brand are a brand nonetheless, just as trim levels are a brand. There is no need for any brand, model or trim level to be unprofitable if done right.

 

None of what I think will ever come to fruition so I just disposed of 5 minutes of my time here on planet earth.

[AlRozzi]

Just look at Focus for a more concrete example.

 

We're losing $3K on every one we build.

 

So why don't you figure out how to build one that you can make money on? And if you can't then get rid of it.

 

I fight this every day at work.

Heck. We all do that...in private sector work. I wish I had a job where if I could not finance whatever it is I'm doing I could just take it to the taxpayers!

[akirby]

Al - if you look at the 2 or 3 volume models for a luxury automaker - they're the ones in the $30K-$50K price range, not the ones in the $60K-$100K range. It would be difficult for Lincoln to survive on 2 or 3 super high end models. You need more volume for the dealerships which are separate.

 

So why not add Mercury to the Lincoln dealerships for volume? Excellent idea. But then why bother to call them Mercurys? Just make them all Lincolns. Same vehicles, one brand, one message.

 

Selling $30K - $40K entry level vehicles has not hurt BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus or any of the other high volume luxury makes.

 

I think the attraction to Mercury is purely sentimental which is understandable but not a good business decision.

[ZanatWork]

There is sill room for Mercury, getting back to its sporting days...when Ford customers would pay the dealer extra to get the Mercury version of an engine in their car. Mercury wasn't just mid-market, it was a "sporting gentleman's" brand.

And, as Lincoln was discussed as seeking a direction other than "performance" in a recent interview, the door opens for a mid-level division that is more BMW themed than Lexus. Mercury would have a lower market ceiling, but be able to offer some models combining some elements of the other divisions.

Of course, Lincoln is stuck at the mid-price level until they manage to push upmarket.

[papilgee4evaeva]

There is sill room for Mercury, getting back to its sporting days...when Ford customers would pay the dealer extra to get the Mercury version of an engine in their car. Mercury wasn't just mid-market, it was a "sporting gentleman's" brand.

 

Fifty-some-odd years ago, Mercury also sold pickups and full-sized vans for our Canadian brethren. Should we make room to bring back the Mercury M-Series and Mercury-badged Econoline too?

[SoonerLS]

imho it's demonstratable that FoMoCo's already put a LOT more effort into Titanium

than they put into Merc for DECADES

Effort, maybe, but I can guarantee you that they invest far less cash in a trim line on a Ford than in the, umm, "unique" sheet metal of the Mercs--and get a better return on it, to boot. Maybe Merc will return, but the continuing success of the Titaniums in covering that mid-market segment makes that a very hard business case to make, and it's getting harder every day. It's not like Lincoln can go far enough upmarket to make room between a Titanium Ford and a Lincoln, at least not any time soon.

[ZanatWork]

 

Fifty-some-odd years ago, Mercury also sold pickups and full-sized vans for our Canadian brethren. Should we make room to bring back the Mercury M-Series and Mercury-badged Econoline too?

No...but Lincoln wants to be further upmarket, and there would be a resulting gap if/when that's managed. If Lincoln wants to take the customized luxury route, there's definitely room between 30-60 grand....

[akirby]

No...but Lincoln wants to be further upmarket, and there would be a resulting gap if/when that's managed. If Lincoln wants to take the customized luxury route, there's definitely room between 30-60 grand....

 

what is the price range of bmw mercedes or audi?

[twintornados]

Fact: Mercury is a dead marquee, quietly and mercifully quick in its demise out of respect for the marquee that Edsel built.

 

Fact: It is not coming back.

 

Fact: Edsels' purchased marquee known as Lincoln will continue to be re-imaged to be the luxury co-line for select Ford dealerships, while Titanium, Limited, and possibly Vignale will cover the mid-range that used to be Mercury's territory.

 

Wishful thinking on my part: That the name "Mercury" becomes trim line above Titanium and Vignale, but I think it would be too soon at this point in time.

[SoonerLS]

Fact: It is not coming back.

Mercury is not coming back any time soon, but never say never. If they can push Lincoln far enough up market, they could, in theory, open up the space for Mercury again; I just don't see that happening for the foreseeable future. Lincoln is still carrying too much baggage to move its bottom end products above Ford's top end products.

[NickF1011]

Mercury is not coming back any time soon, but never say never. If they can push Lincoln far enough up market, they could, in theory, open up the space for Mercury again; I just don't see that happening for the foreseeable future. Lincoln is still carrying too much baggage to move its bottom end products above Ford's top end products.

 

Lincoln would have to enter Bentley/Rolls Royce territory to get high enough.

[twintornados]

Mercury is not coming back any time soon, but never say never. If they can push Lincoln far enough up market, they could, in theory, open up the space for Mercury again; I

It will not happen....ever ...Mercury as a car division and separate line is never...ever.....coming back. Trim line similar to Vignale and Titanium? Maybe...but never ever again as a separate car line...The costs associated with bringing forth a new marquee would be way too much to justify the sales when it can be effectively covered by a higher end Ford companion model.

 

I wonder what a Fusion Voga would be like...the Milan Voga was a really snazzy trim upgrade....

[SoonerLS]

It will not happen....ever ...Mercury as a car division and separate line is never...ever.....coming back.

It all depends on who wants to see it return. If enough Ford family members decide that they want Edsel's marque back, it's coming back. That's the beauty of being an owner...

[SoonerLS]

Lincoln would have to enter Bentley/Rolls Royce territory to get high enough.

Very likely--if only the business case is considered.

[30 OTT 6]

Heck. We all do that...in private sector work. I wish I had a job where if I could not finance whatever it is I'm doing I could just take it to the taxpayers!

Are you talking about Wall Street?

[papilgee4evaeva]

No...but Lincoln wants to be further upmarket, and there would be a resulting gap if/when that's managed. If Lincoln wants to take the customized luxury route, there's definitely room between 30-60 grand....

 

Only way that what you suggest will come forth is if the company decides to restrain Ford in favor of Mercury just like how GM restrains Chevrolet in favor of Buick.

 

There's no way that the least expensive Lincoln will start at $60k. No way. (Well, not unless the value of the dollar falls through the floor, but that's not a discussion to be held in this particular forum...)

[twintornados]

It all depends on who wants to see it return. If enough Ford family members decide that they want Edsel's marque back, it's coming back. That's the beauty of being an owner...

I think a more fitting tribute to Edsel would be a limited edition run of Lincolns that are "Edsel Ford Signature Edition" and in Prussian Blue....

[Edstock]

I think a more fitting tribute to Edsel would be a limited edition run of Lincolns that are "Edsel Ford Signature Edition" and in Prussian Blue....

 

That might be a lot more likely than not, depending on the new metal-shaping tech that Ford has been developing, that eliminates stamping dies. For low-run vehicles, this could be very interesting.

 

Founded in 1917 by Henry M. Leland, Lincoln has been a subsidiary of Ford since 1922. So, 2017 is the 100th anniversary. Be a good time to introduce the "Edsel Ford Signature Edition", IMHO.

[AlRozzi]

Al - if you look at the 2 or 3 volume models for a luxury automaker - they're the ones in the $30K-$50K price range, not the ones in the $60K-$100K range. It would be difficult for Lincoln to survive on 2 or 3 super high end models. You need more volume for the dealerships which are separate.

 

So why not add Mercury to the Lincoln dealerships for volume? Excellent idea. But then why bother to call them Mercurys? Just make them all Lincolns. Same vehicles, one brand, one message.

 

Selling $30K - $40K entry level vehicles has not hurt BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus or any of the other high volume luxury makes.

 

I think the attraction to Mercury is purely sentimental which is understandable but not a good business decision.

I don't want to imply that bringing back the Mercury nameplate is what I have in mind. I don't care what it is called, I just think the Lincoln name doesn't resonate well with car buyers for various reasons.

 

For that reason I see an advantage by perhaps building one special platform for a dedicated luxury car and perhaps spinning 2 to 3 models off of that and then filling out the brand as a dual with lower vehicles that share platforms and the like with the mainstream brand. Could be Continental/Lincoln, for example.

 

It seems to me that would shut the mouths of true luxury believers - by actually building something with dedicated credentials - but necessarily carrying a seperate brand name.

 

By keeping the model line narrow and on one platform it reduces the cost of developing a portfolio of "luxury" vehicles.

 

The lessor brand can share platforms and tech with a volume brand and get away with it.

 

Besides, there are 40 or so brands already on sale in America so the market for brands is large and dynamic.

 

I believe in branding. That is why advertising and marketing exist in a consumer market.

 

I'm not criticizing what Alan chose to do, I'm only expressing what I would have done.

[silvrsvt]

By keeping the model line narrow and on one platform it reduces the cost of developing a portfolio of "luxury" vehicles.

 

 

That makes no sense...that would actually cost more because your luxury platform (using CD platform as an example) would be lucky to break 150K units a year in sales, vs nearly 400-500K sales if it was shared with Ford.