Biker16 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) It seems pretty clear to everyone that Ford does have a transverse FWD/AWD configuration needs and they are going to continue investing in it. As for RWD, I don't think Ford needs it and it wasn't part of my argument. I said longtitute AWD was something Ford needs but it can also be used for large FWD sedan if necessary. Mustang can continue on its own unique RWD platform and it will be just fine. The question is what is best for Explorer? And keep in mind that with Lincoln companion, the business case in baked in with even higher MSRP. Why would Ford want to impose the Explorer program requirements on Focus development just so they can use the same " platform"? Remember, common platform is for the benefit of manufacturing cost containment... not really a customer benefit. What kind of manufacturing savings are you hoping to realize by forcing Explorer to use the next generation C platform? ) The I-4 powerpacks the explorer uses will directly bolt into the Focus right now. The Explorer isn't a large volume product. Think About it, ford sells roughly 3 Focuses or 3 F-sries for each Explorer, to put it bluntly Ford cannot a complete redesign of the Explorer unless they add more volume to the program. even with a Lincoln Aviator that only increases volume to 330,000 units, not enough to pay for new non-premium platform. D4 is an evolutionary dead-end, it cannot meet future needs of the products that are based upon it. The mustang only survives because it is at it's foundation is a cheap and simple to build product that still is built with fixtures paid for by the 2005 mustang, it also competes in less competitive and more emotional segment. Like the Super Duty, Ford Couldn't afford to redesign it as a standalone product, and instead used the body from the F-150. The explorer no matter how high those margins are needs a volume platform to compete. So.... you don't need the Focus and Explorer to be built on the same line but the Explorer needs Focus, (C-platform) Volume to keep cost down on components like engines, transmissions, Electrical systems, etc. you begin to lose that once you move to a premium platform. If in 2018 Ford replaces it's Transverse Architecture with one that natively support Electrification, and innovation like 42V electrical systems and integrated mild hybrid technology. you have the economies of Scale of 2.5-3 million units to spread that development costs over, where if you have orphan product like explorer, or mustang, you have to adapt that cost over smaller volumes. Now Ford... 1 maybe 2 transverse, depending on if you believe C3 and the next iteration of CD4 (CD5?) is the same family, 1 longitude platform (speculatively CD6) Jeebus, Ford is such an outlier! CD6 is speculation, and not confirmed by Ford. Why Does ford need Longitudinal platform, if it does why does it need to be FWD. Edited March 21, 2016 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 No. No they're not. Not on a per unit basis, not on a gross basis. GAAP is your friend. So GM is More Agile Than Ford bringing car to market. GM has much much better Quality than Ford GM sells alot more vehicles than Ford in more markets than Ford. GM is a lower cost producer than Ford. They do all this while having a sometimes confusing product Strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Vague Vague Irrelevant, given profit data Citation needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Vague Vague Irrelevant, given profit data Citation needed GM is More Agile Than Ford bringing car to market. GM has much much better Quality than Ford GM sells alot more vehicles than Ford in more markets than Ford. GM is a lower cost producer than Ford. http://www.jdpower.com/cars/awards/Initial-Quality-Study-by-Segment/567ENG 2016 Dependability Ratings GM wins 5 categories Ford 0 Ford Quality is Awesome. http://www.jdpower.com/cars/awards/Vehicle-Dependability-Study-%28VDS%29-by-Category/843ENG Highest-Ranked Nameplates and ModelsPorsche ranks highest in initial quality for a third consecutive year, posting a score of 80 PP100. With a 20 PP100 improvement from 2014, Kia follows Porsche in the rankings at 86 PP100. This marks the first time in the history of the study that Kia has led all non-premium makes in initial quality. Jaguar (93 PP100), Hyundai (95 PP100) and Infiniti (97 PP100) round out the top five nameplates. Infiniti is one of the most improved brands in the study, lowering its problem score by 31 PP100 from 2014. Model awards are spread among several corporations, with many receiving multiple awards. General Motors (4): Chevrolet Equinox (tie); Chevrolet Malibu; Chevrolet Silverado LD; and Chevrolet Spark Hyundai Motor Company (4): Hyundai Accent; Hyundai Tucson; Kia Sorento; and Kia Soul Nissan Motor Company (4): Infiniti QX70; Infiniti QX80; Nissan Sentra; and Nissan Quest Volkswagen AG (4): Audi Q3; Porsche 911; Porsche Boxster; and Porsche Macan BMW (3): BMW 2 Series; BMW 4 Series; and BMW 5 Series Toyota Motor Corporation (3): Lexus LS; Toyota Tacoma; and Toyota Sequoia Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (2): Chrysler 300 and Dodge Challenger Ford Motor Company (2): Ford Escape (tie) and Ford Super Duty Mazda (1): Mazda MX-5 Miata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 One VDS survey from one year for one country is hardly sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) The only region where Ford and GM really flourish is North America, so let's look at the figures from there: North America: in 2015, GM sold 3.6 Million vehicles and turned a EBIT Adjusted (whatever that is) pre-tax profit of $11 Billion while Ford sold 3 million vehicles and turned a pre-tax profit of $9.7 Billion Sure GM outsold Ford, mostly with large SUVs winning the day, GM and Ford's ATPs were pretty close which knocks out the speculation that Cadillac and Denali level vehicles played a pivotal role in that victory. And re Mustang, the decision to bring Mustang product cycle to 2020 was actually made in 2014, not in the last 18 months. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions form that article as it's merely planning which we know can change without warning. Edited March 22, 2016 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 S That I can buy. CD size RWD sedan + Mustang. Although we don't have a lot of firm info on the RWD sedan. Explorer + Mustang will not work very well. Sometimes they can hide something in plain sight. I remember when the Freestyle mules/prototypes were being photographed with cladding and everyone said the Taurus was being replaced with a wagon only. I noticed that some had a roof that got higher in back and some had a roof that sloped down in the back under the cladding. I claimed the one with the roof that sloped down a little was a sedan with a fake wagon back on it, and sure enough the Five hundred was revealed little later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Ford is about to extinguish Falcon and Territory which were upgraded progressively with a lot of help from "One Ford" PARTS BIN. Pity they couldn't be re used...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) While Ford moves production to mexico, remains Capacity constrained on Compact CUV production, and is cutting shifts at it's compact car plant. Honda Invest $40 million to move CR-V production from mexico to build it Alongside the Civic in Indiana. I guess that is difference between planing at the vehicle level and Ford's planning at the corporate level. http://www.autonews.com/article/20160322/OEM01/160329954/honda-details-52-million-plan-to-add-cr-v-output-at-indiana-plantHonda details $52 million plan to add CR-V output at Indiana plantJohn IrwinAutomotive NewsMarch 22, 2016 - 6:34 pm ETHonda will invest $52 million in its Greensburg, Ind., assembly plant to add output of the popular CR-V compact crossover by early next year, the automaker said Tuesday.About $40 million will go toward upgrading the manufacturing site to allow for CR-V production, while another $12.4 million will be spent on a 20,000-square-foot training center for manufacturing skills classes.The 1.3 million-square-foot plant will continue to produce the Honda Civic compact sedan, the automaker’s third-highest-selling vehicle in the U.S. The plant, which is southeast of Indianapolis, has produced 44,579 Civics through February this year, a year-over-year rise of 38 percent.The investment comes as demand for crossovers and SUVs remains hot industrywide. Honda sold 345,647 CR-V’s in the U.S. during 2015, a 3.2 percent increase over 2014.The CR-V was the top-selling crossover in the U.S. in 2015.Honda disclosed plans to add CR-V output at the Indiana plant in January, though it did not provide details on the planned inv.... Edited March 23, 2016 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 While Ford moves production to mexico, remains Capacity constrained on Compact CUV production, and is cutting shifts at it's compact car plant. Honda Invest $40 million to move CR-V production from mexico to build it Alongside the Civic in Indiana. I guess that is difference between planing at the vehicle level and Ford's planning at the corporate level. Meanwhile, Ford cuts 700 lbs off F150 with Aluminum AND guts and rebuilds 2 factories in record time for a vehicle that sells 700K per year. Which do you think has the better ROI? Stop cherrypicking the vehicles and platforms that YOU care about. Ford has its priorities straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) While Ford moves production to mexico, remains Capacity constrained on Compact CUV production, and is cutting shifts at it's compact car plant. Honda Invest $40 million to move CR-V production from mexico to build it Alongside the Civic in Indiana. I guess that is difference between planing at the vehicle level and Ford's planning at the corporate level. Honda's not getting out of Mexico. They're moving the CR-V up to a second plant in the States only so they can have a second plant within which to build the HR-V (both in Mexico). You gotta tell the whole story, man. Edited March 23, 2016 by papilgee4evaeva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Meanwhile, Ford cuts 700 lbs off F150 with Aluminum AND guts and rebuilds 2 factories in record time for a vehicle that sells 700K per year. Which do you think has the better ROI? Stop cherrypicking the vehicles and platforms that YOU care about. Ford has its priorities straight. now who is cherry picking. AKA Changing the subject... AKA goal-post-moving. Honda's not getting out of Mexico. They're moving the CR-V up to a second plant in the States only so they can have a second plant within which to build the HR-V (both in Mexico). You gotta tell the whole story, man. Honda produces the CR-V in 3 plants OHIO....241,193 (includes RDX) Canada.... 206,000 Mexico... 63,126 The CR-V is the best Selling SUV in the US. http://hondanews.com/releases/honda-sets-record-for-all-time-auto-production-in-north-america ,m Honda Sets Record For All-Time Auto Production In North America PRINT ADD SHARE DOWNLOAD Jan 11, 2016 - MARYSVILLE, Ohio Honda's eight automobile plants in North America built over 1.86 million vehicles in 2015 NA plants produce more than 99 percent of Honda and Acura vehicles sold in U.S. Production line-up changes in Indiana and Mexico to fortify light-truck supply capability Honda today reported that in 2015 it set an all-time record for single-year North American auto production, with total production of 1,862,491Honda and Acura vehicles, an increase of 3.1 percent over the previous record set in 2014. Honda's eight auto plants in North America produced more than 99 percent of the Honda and Acura cars and light trucks sold in the U.S. in 2015. Honda today also announced plans to fortify its light-truck supply capability by adding production of the Honda CR-V to the company's Indiana plant and the all-new HR-V at a second plant in Mexico, both moves planned to take place in 2017. "We are extremely proud of the record-setting efforts of our associates, which was key to our ability to meet record demand from our customers in North America for Honda and Acura vehicles," said Takuji Yamada, president of Honda North America, Inc. "Our dedicated team of associates at our eight auto plants in the U.S., Canada and Mexico is committed to producing the high-quality products our customers have come to expect from the Honda and Acura brands." Production flexibility has long been a hallmark of Honda's North American manufacturing success, enabling the company to add production of new models and move production between plants to optimize capacity and meet the changing needs of its customers. In 2015, this included the startup of production of the all-new Civic, HR-V and Pilot in North America and the announcement of plans to dual source the Acura MDX by adding production in Ohio in early 2017, in addition to existing production in Alabama. "We must make more efficient use of our existing capacity in North America," said Takahiro Hachigo, president & CEO of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. "We will work to advance a complementary supply system to meet the needs of customers in each local market and supplement the needs of customers in other regions." Regarding the production moves planned in 2017, Honda Manufacturing of Indiana (HMIN) will begin CR-V production, in addition to its current production of the Civic Sedan. The CR-V will continue to be produced at the East Liberty (Ohio) Auto Plant and at Honda of Canada Mfg. Further, the Honda de Mexico (HDM) plant in Guadalajara, which currently produces the CR-V, will transition to production of the HR-V in 2017 to help meet demand for Honda's hot-selling entry crossover model, establishing a dual sourcing relationship for the HR-V with Honda's other automobile plant in Mexico, located in Celaya. 2015 Honda North American Auto Production Plants Models 2015 Units Alabama Honda Pilot, Odyssey and Acura MDX 349,703 Indiana Honda Civic 218,202 Ohio East Liberty: Honda CR-V, Acura RDX 241,193 Marysville: Honda Accord, Acura ILX and TLX 460,626 Ohio total 701,819 Canada Plant 1: Honda Civic 178,828 Plant 2: CR-V 206,154 (record) Canada total 384,982 Mexico Guadalajara: Honda CR-V 63,126 Celaya: Honda Fit and HR-V 144,659 (record) Mexico total 207,785 (record) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I don't even know what point you're making. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Ford is bad. Toyota and GM are good. Got it. Completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I don't even know what point you're making. Bet you $5 that he doesn't either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Bet you $5 that he doesn't either. Fanaticism consists in redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Fanaticism consists in redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your aim. That's why the Crusades are viewed as such a travesty now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 For the sake of keeping the peace, this thread should be closed. I think we've said all that can be said in 10 pages worth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 We're trying not to lock threads unless they are out of control. If people are making the same arguments over and over just ignore them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I'm gonna jump allllllllll the way back to the first post, because I missed this... Its from last year...some interesting info <snip> The Ford Flex (D471) and Lincoln MKT (D472) EOPs have been moved out three years from December2015 to December 2018. So the Flex and MKT were supposed to die three months ago? What caused the reprieve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 So the Flex and MKT were supposed to die three months ago? What caused the reprieve? Well it looks like the MKT has died off quietly...the Lincoln site hasn't been updated for the 2016MY MKT. Unless its in limited production just for TC fleet production. Not sure what is going on with the Flex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Well it looks like the MKT has died off quietly...the Lincoln site hasn't been updated for the 2016MY MKT. Unless its in limited production just for TC fleet production. Not sure what is going on with the Flex That's right, the MKT's quiet end was mentioned. Maybe the Flex is going to transition to fleet-only sometime soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 That's right, the MKT's quiet end was mentioned. Maybe the Flex is going to transition to fleet-only sometime soon... I think it has more to do with Flex sales continuing to be relatively consistent and steady. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Flex sells well enough at high enough prices to keep it going... but obviously not well enough to earn it a full update. I doubt Flex will be going fleet only... it's one of the few cars that Ford makes where sales is almost 100% retail. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 OK, that's all fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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