Aluminum '17 Expy Coming

[sullynd]

Texas state fair is more likely then. Don't bury it somewhere like Chicago that nobody pays any attention to.

Chicago is the largest auto show in the country and frequently has reveals (though Ford doesn't seem to favor it).

[BORG]

It's also possible New York will get Navigator instead of Detroit and Detroit will get Expedition. Lincoln will not have a major new product until the next-gen MKC so they likely won't have a concept next year unless they do something more speculative (like a coupe concept). Ford is also growing thin on new products to announce, we saw that last year with no major concepts or products on hand to showcase so it would be nice to see the Expedition the focus of their event this year. Lincoln is starting to thin out as well so New York would be perfect. Ford will likely have a few very minor facelifts to show off at some point in 2017, it could be at the Autoshows....like the F-Series and Mustang. And the following year should be Focus, the next major product although I would not be surprised if Fiesta and Focus are ultimately revealed elsewhere in the world first.

Edited September 16, 2016 by BORG

[fuzzymoomoo]

Focus and Fiesta were both shown in Geneva for the current generation models. I expect that trend to continue.

[sullynd]

I wonder when they'll show the new hybrid/electric don't call if a C-Max Prius fighter thing

[silvrsvt]

I wonder when they'll show the new hybrid/electric don't call if a C-Max Prius fighter thing

 

Given how the market is changing (favoring CUVs vs sedans) and the rumors of changes with programs at Ford, I think seeing a electric or hybrid Model E CUV is more likely then not at Detroit, given that it should launch with in 24 months of January 2017

[rmc523]

It's also possible New York will get Navigator instead of Detroit and Detroit will get Expedition. Lincoln will not have a major new product until the next-gen MKC so they likely won't have a concept next year unless they do something more speculative (like a coupe concept). Ford is also growing thin on new products to announce, we saw that last year with no major concepts or products on hand to showcase so it would be nice to see the Expedition the focus of their event this year. Lincoln is starting to thin out as well so New York would be perfect. Ford will likely have a few very minor facelifts to show off at some point in 2017, it could be at the Autoshows....like the F-Series and Mustang. And the following year should be Focus, the next major product although I would not be surprised if Fiesta and Focus are ultimately revealed elsewhere in the world first.

 

Here's the show timeline for Lincoln I came up with......I think we'll see an MKC concept at one of this year's shows too (with production Navigator shown at another show). Since MKC is to be completely redesigned for 2019, the timing fits to have a concept this year, and the production model shown next year alongside the refreshed MKX next year (which will usher out the split wing completely).

 

 

I've been told they are working on a Lincoln coupe, but it's still a few years away.

 

 

Given how the market is changing (favoring CUVs vs sedans) and the rumors of changes with programs at Ford, I think seeing a electric or hybrid Model E CUV is more likely then not at Detroit, given that it should launch with in 24 months of January 2017

 

That's an interesting thought - I didn't think of the possibility of seeing a Model E "concept"

[NLPRacing]

I doubt the new Expy will be shown at the State Fair of Texas. In fact, I don't anticipate anything major at this year's fair for Ford. I get emails from the local Ford PR guy. In years past, there would be a bunch of emails & tweets with vague info to build buzz for whatever Ford was showing (like last year with the new Super Duty). This year, there's been nothing. I don't even see a Ford press conference on the schedule. I do have a feeling that we'll see the new Ranger at next year's State Fair of Texas.

[Harley Lover]

Chicago is the largest auto show in the country and frequently has reveals (though Ford doesn't seem to favor it).

 

NAIAS is by far the more important show. Chicago gets leftovers by comparison.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Harley Lover

[sullynd]

NAIAS is by far the more important show. Chicago gets leftovers by comparison.

Did I say otherwise? Chicago is still bigger, and certainly more important than the TX state fair, which is what I was responding to.

 

Ford's the only mainline manufacturer that gives Chicago little attention.

[blwnsmoke]

So do you think Ford will continue the Aluminum strategy into CUVS (edge, escape) or is there not enough weight savings advantage because they are too small? Could they benefit by cost reduction due to buying larger supplies of aluminum?

[fuzzymoomoo]

So do you think Ford will continue the Aluminum strategy into CUVS (edge, escape) or is there not enough weight savings advantage because they are too small? Could they benefit by cost reduction due to buying larger supplies of aluminum?

There was a rumor about a year and a half ago about the next Focus heavily using aluminum. Haven't heard a word about it in a long time, and given recent news I doubt they're sticking to that plan.

[fuzzymoomoo]

Did I say otherwise? Chicago is still bigger, and certainly more important than the TX state fair, which is what I was responding to.

 

Ford's the only mainline manufacturer that gives Chicago little attention.

Texas State Fair is traditionally where new trucks are shown. Its where the new Super Duty was unveiled last year.

[sullynd]

Texas State Fair is traditionally where new trucks are shown. Its where the new Super Duty was unveiled last year.

The Expedition is a different consumer. Super Duty would get coverage wherever Ford chose to unveil it. They could have unveiled it at a Girl Scout convention and get the same coverage. The TX State Fair is minor.

[Pioneer]

There was a rumor about a year and a half ago about the next Focus heavily using aluminum. Haven't heard a word about it in a long time, and given recent news I doubt they're sticking to that plan.

I think I'm the one that started that "rumor". At the time, I knew a guy working at Wayne ISA that had intricate knowledge of upcoming projects. I was told by said person that the new Focus would use a significant amount of aluminum. If the same vehicle is to be built, and just its assembly point is changed, then the new Focus should use it.

 

They have since retired, but have been asked to come back to work on the Ranger launch. Don't know yet of they will accept. Said person had grown accustomed to being retired.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Pioneer

[silvrsvt]

Talking out of my ass for a moment...I don't think we'll see Alu Unibody cars for a while yet, due to costs (i.e. profit margins). I'm sure that next generation products will have more aluminum in them for weight savings, but to see a completely aluminum Fusion or Focus is at least another 5-10 years out or so.

[BORG]

I know Ford has been looking at cheaper wait savings like composites or carbon fiber, but ultimately Aluminum is cheapest. Although Ford just needs to study how GM was able to cut so much weight out of their cars with conventional materials first. I think Ford is reluctant to spend on tight margin products which are getting tighter. The first vehicles to get it will be larger like Explorer, so I would not be surprised if that is Aluminum. But ultimately, creating aluminum truck bodies is very different than structurally vital unibody cars, there is allot of steel in a Truck frame. But ultimately Ford has allot of work to do with it's next round of products and I hope they have it figured out.

Edited September 19, 2016 by BORG

[2b2]

^ something about that phrasing makes me think about how the mfgs (imho) ASSURED the decline of the hatchback (last century) by putting less-&-less effort into them.

So now it's cars-in-general's turn

:facepalm:

 

Talking out of my Shiny metal ass! for a moment...

 

fixed ^^^^^

[BORG]

^ something about that phrasing makes me think about how the mfgs (imho) ASSURED the decline of the hatchback (last century) by putting less-&-less effort into them.

So now it's cars-in-general's turn

:facepalm:

 

fixed ^^^^^

 

 

Well...the hatchback did die.

[Stray Kat]

I know Ford has been looking at cheaper wait savings like composites or carbon fiber, but ultimately Aluminum is cheapest. Although Ford just needs to study how GM was able to cut so much weight out of their cars with conventional materials first. I think Ford is reluctant to spend on tight margin products which are getting tighter. The first vehicles to get it will be larger like Explorer, so I would not be surprised if that is Aluminum. But ultimately, creating aluminum truck bodies is very different than structurally vital unibody cars, there is allot of steel in a Truck frame. But ultimately Ford has allot of work to do with it's next round of products and I hope they have it figured out.

 

I seem to remember a bunch of ink devoted to those all aluminum "Ford era" Jaguars. You don't think an aluminum Mustang would be world beating? That thing is getting very porky. If I'm Ford I go for the throat.

[silvrsvt]

You don't think an aluminum Mustang would be world beating? That thing is getting very porky. If I'm Ford I go for the throat.

 

But at what cost? A stripper F-150 is around 30K....the Mustang still starts considerably lower than that and not to mention trucks have a higher profit margin (cheaper to build) then cars/CUVs. Plus I don't think you'll see a 700 or so weight loss when it comes to a car vs a truck either.

 

All cars weigh more because of size/equipment increases over the years.

[BORG]

It's just too expensive to make a car entirely out of aluminum, far more expensive than a Truck.

[Stray Kat]

No offense but are you guys sure it's too expensive to build a monocoque car out of aluminum? I mean I don't know either, do you guys have the data?

 

If Ford could drop the Stang 500+ pounds you have just opened up a world of possibility.

 

If we were having this conversation about engines everyone would say that the DOHC 5.0 would be too expensive to make compared to the pushrod GM engines. Ford has found a way to make them work.

 

I don't know when the next gen Mustang is due but it had better be the best to continue the roll that Ford is on with it now.

 

Let me remind everyone that Mustang is Ford's only musclecar at this point. Chevrolet has two car lines to cover that market, the Camaro and the Corvette.

 

How much does it cost to build two completely different cars to fill a need when Ford could do it with one.

 

Now I know everyone is thinking "hey what about the GT?". In my opinion that doesn't count since it is so limited and at a much higher aquisition cost.

 

No IMHO Ford has to dominate the pony car class and you can't do that by being shy. At the same time the bread and butter V6 and Ecoboost Mustangs take a quantum leap in performance and efficiency.

[Harley Lover]

Ford just needs to study how GM was able to cut so much weight out of their cars with conventional materials first.

 

x2

 

How much savings in weight is Ford leaving on the table before aluminum is in the conversation?

Edited September 20, 2016 by Harley Lover

[silvrsvt]

No offense but are you guys sure it's too expensive to build a monocoque car out of aluminum? I mean I don't know either, do you guys have the data?

 

If Ford could drop the Stang 500+ pounds you have just opened up a world of possibility.

The problem is that you're not going to see that much of a weight savings with the Mustang...maybe 300-400 lbs

 

Some really interesting use of Alu in automotive applications is here:

 

https://www.alcoa.com/car_truck/en/pdf/2014_Ducker_Executive_Summary.pdf

 

BLUF-Bigger the auto,the more weight savings...it even states that cars that are in the CD and below segment are going to have issues with affordability.

 

 

 

Let me remind everyone that Mustang is Ford's only musclecar at this point. Chevrolet has two car lines to cover that market, the Camaro and the Corvette.

 

Now I know everyone is thinking "hey what about the GT?". In my opinion that doesn't count since it is so limited and at a much higher aquisition cost.

 

No IMHO Ford has to dominate the pony car class and you can't do that by being shy. At the same time the bread and butter V6 and Ecoboost Mustangs take a quantum leap in performance and efficiency.

From the looks of it, the next gen Vette is going to significantly increase in price if they keep just the mid-engine around...

[Stray Kat]

The problem is that you're not going to see that much of a weight savings with the Mustang...maybe 300-400 lbsSome really interesting use of Alu in automotive applications is here:https://www.alcoa.com/car_truck/en/pdf/2014_Ducker_Executive_Summary.pdfBLUF-Bigger the auto,the more weight savings...it even states that cars that are in the CD and below segment are going to have issues with affordability. From the looks of it, the next gen Vette is going to significantly increase in price if they keep just the mid-engine around...

Yet on a "unitized" structure more of the whole vehicle would be encompassed in aluminum material.

 

BTW rumor has it that there will be two Vettes for at least a while. The current roadster and the new mid engined "Zora".