Ford spending 1.5 billion/adding 3k jobs at two Michigan plants

[Sherminator98]

Adding employees/tooling to MAP for the Bronco and 300 employees/tooling BEV F-150s at DTP. 
 

https://www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/ford-add-3000-jobs-two-mich-plants?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=automotive news&utm_content=0e86f274-6ed9-4ffa-ae28-3da15d9f6393

[jpd80]

Doubling the workforce at Map to 5,400?

Wow, that’s a big jump in numbers

[Oac98]

Congrats on the further investments added in addition to the ones that have already been started!! To those of you in here who work at those facilities! 

[Sherminator98]

28 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Doubling the workforce at Map to 5,400?

Wow, that’s a big jump in numbers

 

Gotta make sure they can build enough Broncos and Rangers I guess  

[jpd80]

6 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Gotta make sure they can build enough Broncos and Rangers I guess  

and it's welcome news for workers in that area.

[RichardJensen]

Heh.

 

I wonder if they've paid off the low interest loan they got from the Feds for retooling MAP for the Focus:

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ford-opens-flexible-green-michigan-assembly-plant-with-production-of-all-new-ford-focus-118182259.html

 

It's amusing that Ford got a discounted loan for switching to a more fuel efficient product, and less than a decade later, they're switching back to a less fuel efficient product.

 

Plus ca change, I guess....

[fuzzymoomoo]

20 minutes ago, RichardJensen said:

Heh.

 

I wonder if they've paid off the low interest loan they got from the Feds for retooling MAP for the Focus:

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ford-opens-flexible-green-michigan-assembly-plant-with-production-of-all-new-ford-focus-118182259.html

 

It's amusing that Ford got a discounted loan for switching to a more fuel efficient product, and less than a decade later, they're switching back to a less fuel efficient product.

 

Plus ca change, I guess....

 

As far as I'm aware those loans were paid off by the time sales tanked and 3rd shift was cut. 

[Austin]

7 minutes ago, RichardJensen said:

Heh.

 

I wonder if they've paid off the low interest loan they got from the Feds for retooling MAP for the Focus:

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ford-opens-flexible-green-michigan-assembly-plant-with-production-of-all-new-ford-focus-118182259.html

 

It's amusing that Ford got a discounted loan for switching to a more fuel efficient product, and less than a decade later, they're switching back to a less fuel efficient product.

 

Plus ca change, I guess....

 

Yes, pretty funny.  Ford certainly used the AVTM incentive to the max but played by the rules.  Moving Escape to Louisville was another that had more to do with a product move than anything else.  GM couldn't claim any AVTM loans because they weren't solvent at the time, and decided not to go for them later due to political considerations (does anybody remember the GM trash talk after 11 years?).  Tesla paid their loan back early; not because they were good guys, but because the government received stock warrants to balance their risky future.  The warrants, as it turns out, would have been worth a lot more than the loan.

 

Ford's initially borrowed $5.9 billion.  The 2018 annual report (FS35) shows the following for the total of all the AVTM loans:

 

AVTM due within one year:  $591 million

AVTM due more than one year:  $1,470 million

 

..  

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

Doubling the workforce at Map to 5,400?

Wow, that’s a big jump in numbers

 

Second shift in final, which includes 2 shifts worth of workers for the Bronco line in Trim, 2 shifts worth of workers for the Bronco line in Body shop and Stamping/Subs, plus however many they need in the press room and paint shop

 

the numbers make sense to me. 

[ice-capades]

1 minute ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Second shift in final, which includes 2 shifts worth of workers for the Bronco line in Trim, 2 shifts worth of workers for the Bronco line in Body shop and Stamping/Subs, plus however many they need in the press room and paint shop

 

the numbers make sense to me. 

 

Thanks! I was just going to post a note wondering whether any of the new hires would be for additional shifts in certain departments, etc. I'd expect that at some point, as Ranger volume grows and Bronco starts to get established that there will be enough demand to warrant a 2nd shift for assembly. In order to really be profitable, the plant need to operate at 80% of capacity, at least. 

[Austin]

I think it's more accurate to say that Dearborn will be producing F150 EV battery packs, not cells.

 

I haven't heard where the cells are being sourced, but capacity is an issue and all the manufacturers are going to have to get their volume committed or potentially make JV investments.  I believe the Mach E cells will be coming from the new LG plant in Wroclaw, Poland and it will be limited to 50k vehicles the first year. 

 

SK Innovation (part of South Korea's #3 chaebol) will be building a new cell plant in Georgia to support VW, and I did see Ford mentioned in one of the articles.  I assume Ford is playing off LG and SK Innovation, but there are other customers in line also.  

 

 

 

.

[mackinaw]

4 minutes ago, Austin said:

I think it's more accurate to say that Dearborn will be producing F150 EV battery packs, not cells.......

 

The Detroit News article says "Ford will also create a new operation for the assembly of battery cell packs in Dearborn."

 

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2019/12/17/ford-bronco-ranger-autonomous-electric-vehicles-wayne-dearborn-investment-jobs-michigan-incentives/2675005001/

 

 

[jpd80]

46 minutes ago, RichardJensen said:

Heh.

 

I wonder if they've paid off the low interest loan they got from the Feds for retooling MAP for the Focus:

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ford-opens-flexible-green-michigan-assembly-plant-with-production-of-all-new-ford-focus-118182259.html

 

It's amusing that Ford got a discounted loan for switching to a more fuel efficient product, and less than a decade later, they're switching back to a less fuel efficient product.

 

Plus ca change, I guess....

 

25 minutes ago, Austin said:

 

Yes, pretty funny.  Ford certainly used the AVTM incentive to the max but played by the rules.  Moving Escape to Louisville was another that had more to do with a product move than anything else.  GM couldn't claim any AVTM loans because they weren't solvent at the time, and decided not to go for them later due to political considerations (does anybody remember the GM trash talk after 11 years?).  Tesla paid their loan back early; not because they were good guys, but because the government received stock warrants to balance their risky future.  The warrants, as it turns out, would have been worth a lot more than the loan.

 

Ford's initially borrowed $5.9 billion.  The 2018 annual report (FS35) shows the following for the total of all the AVTM loans:

 

AVTM due within one year:  $591 million

AVTM due more than one year:  $1,470 million

 

..  

 

 

I believe that $5.9 billion DOE was actually spread across 14 plants including Focus at MAP.

And you're both right, Ford had the means to pay down that loan years ago but chose to hold out to the end.

The government isn't worried, they're getting repayments with interest, this loan is much better than what happened with other bail outs that lost billions.....

 

Funny how the future didn't pan out the way people thought, small efficient cars going the way of the dinosaurs.

Edited December 17, 2019 by jpd80

[Assimilator]

The Battery pack in the F-150 and Transit BEVs are actually surprisingly small, only 50% larger than the Mach E so I would be a little surprised if they can achieve 300 miles of range.  It's also using the same motors last time I heard (same with Transit).  That's one of the limits of the Ford approach which is essentially just bolting batteries between the frame rails.  I'm completely unsold on the idea of an F-150 BEV at this point, I don't think it's going to be worthwhile and I think we need to see what other companies are going to do with bespoke EV platforms in this space.  I'm sure this will be a toe-in-the-water more than anything else.   The F-150 Hybrid might make a little more sense however, at least in-terms of using the existing architecture.  Ford's battery supply won't be a concern until 2023 however, and even by then they have fairly modest BEV volume so they may be able to work within they supply chain instead of building plants with LG Chem.  

 

 

[Austin]

3 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

The Detroit News article says "Ford will also create a new operation for the assembly of battery cell packs in Dearborn."

 

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2019/12/17/ford-bronco-ranger-autonomous-electric-vehicles-wayne-dearborn-investment-jobs-michigan-incentives/2675005001/

 

 

Thanks, that's accurate.  The Automotive News article said "build battery cells" which is not. 

[RichardJensen]

19 minutes ago, Austin said:

 

Yes, pretty funny.  Ford certainly used the AVTM incentive to the max but played by the rules.  Moving Escape to Louisville was another that had more to do with a product move than anything else.

 

..  

 

Yep. They basically got the feds to subsidize production shifts that the market was clamoring for anyway...

[RichardJensen]

2 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Ford had the means to pay down that loan years ago but chose to hold out to the end.

The government isn't worried, they're getting repayments with interest, better than what happened with other bail outs...

 

Also: It's worth observing that Ford's savings consists entirely of the difference in interest rates between what they'd have gotten on the market in 2009 vs. what they got from the Feds. And even calculating those savings isn't straightforward.

 

Odds are pretty high that if Ford had gotten unfavorable terms in 2009, they would have been able to refinance when the company & economy recovered, at rates that were more comparable to what they got from the Feds.

 

[fuzzymoomoo]

29 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

Thanks! I was just going to post a note wondering whether any of the new hires would be for additional shifts in certain departments, etc. I'd expect that at some point, as Ranger volume grows and Bronco starts to get established that there will be enough demand to warrant a 2nd shift for assembly. In order to really be profitable, the plant need to operate at 80% of capacity, at least. 

 

For final, it's 1 shift of people for the Ranger trim line and 2 for the Bronco trim line

[akirby]

35 minutes ago, Assimilator said:

The Battery pack in the F-150 and Transit BEVs are actually surprisingly small, only 50% larger than the Mach E so I would be a little surprised if they can achieve 300 miles of range.  It's also using the same motors last time I heard (same with Transit).  That's one of the limits of the Ford approach which is essentially just bolting batteries between the frame rails.  I'm completely unsold on the idea of an F-150 BEV at this point, I don't think it's going to be worthwhile

 

If it's 50% larger than Mach E that would be 450 miles.  Even accounting for the heavier and less aerodynamic F150 body I would think it would be at least 300-350 miles unloaded and 100-200 miles towing.   I think that would be perfectly fine for a small number of truck buyers.  They don't need to sell 100K of them.

[jpd80]

seeing that a good percentage of F150s will never tow a trailer, the BEV may have a shot at quite a few sales....

[fuzzymoomoo]

21 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

If it's 50% larger than Mach E that would be 450 miles.  Even accounting for the heavier and less aerodynamic F150 body I would think it would be at least 300-350 miles unloaded and 100-200 miles towing.   I think that would be perfectly fine for a small number of truck buyers.  They don't need to sell 100K of them.

 

This is also the NG F-150 so we don't know what kind of aero trickery they might deploy. 

[jpd80]

And will the Tesla truck ultimately prove itself to be considerably heavier than the BEV F150?

Will Ford find a way to offset the weight of the battery packs?

[Assimilator]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

If it's 50% larger than Mach E that would be 450 miles.  Even accounting for the heavier and less aerodynamic F150 body I would think it would be at least 300-350 miles unloaded and 100-200 miles towing.   I think that would be perfectly fine for a small number of truck buyers.  They don't need to sell 100K of them.

 

But it's also half the size of the best Cybertruck and significantly smaller than the largest battery in the Rivian which does 400 miles.  

[akirby]

9 minutes ago, Assimilator said:

 

But it's also half the size of the best Cybertruck and significantly smaller than the largest battery in the Rivian which does 400 miles.  

Why does everyone compare the Cybertruck specs as if it was a production vehicle?  It’s barely a concept at this point.

 

Also - the market for a BEV F150 isn’t necessarily the same as a Rivian or Cybertruck.  

[Harley Lover]

From Auto News:

Ford in May said it planned to put an AV production center somewhere in the Detroit area, altering previous plans to build the facility near Flat Rock. 

The state said Ford "could locate its AV modification center closer to where the base vehicle is being manufactured in Mexico, where labor costs are lower, but is looking to focus its advanced technology capabilities here in Michigan."

The automaker remains on track to launch self-driving vehicles for commercial use in 2021. Ford envisions using the yet-to-be revealed hybrids to deliver packages, groceries and other goods.

 

So - that seems to confirm that plans remain in place to build Transit Connect in Mexico, but to transfer units to the facility in Detroit to be fitted with the AV interior, etc. as described in the article. Unless the plans change again.