Ford spending 1.5 billion/adding 3k jobs at two Michigan plants

[fordmantpw]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Why does everyone compare the Cybertruck specs as if it was a production vehicle?  It’s barely a concept at this point.

 

Also - the market for a BEV F150 isn’t necessarily the same as a Rivian or Cybertruck.  

 

Exactly, it's vaporware at this point. 

[jpd80]

right now, Tesla is sniping at Ford from safety, that thing better be all he claims or Ford an GM will rip him a new one.

 

musk might be the Industry disruptor  but his pockets are shallow compared to Detroit when they’re on a mission. Poke the bear long enough and you know what happens.

Edited December 18, 2019 by jpd80

[jpd80]

Ain’t no way Detroit will let him come in and pick the eyes out of their truck sales, I expect a big counter punch is coming.....

[rperez817]

10 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

musk might be the Industry disruptor  but his pockets are shallow compared to Detroit when they’re on a mission. Poke the bear long enough and you know what happens.

 

Well said jpd80 sir. The race to build the first truly capable, mass produced BEV pickup truck is intense. With Cybertruck, Tesla is giving Ford and GM a "poke". The recent announcements from both Ford and GM regarding their BEV and component manufacturing capabilities suggest that both companies are running hard, running to win.

 

The ultimate winners of course will be the pickup truck market and pickup truck customers.

[ausrutherford]

Looking forward to being one of the Bronco customers in a couple years. 

[snooter]

58 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

right now, Tesla is sniping at Ford from safety, that thing better be all he claims or Ford an GM will rip him a new one.

 

musk might be the Industry disruptor  but his pockets are shallow compared to Detroit when they’re on a mission. Poke the bear long enough and you know what happens.

Unfortunately that is not the case on all accounts...

[Trader 10]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

Why does everyone compare the Cybertruck specs as if it was a production vehicle?  It’s barely a concept at this point.

 

Also - the market for a BEV F150 isn’t necessarily the same as a Rivian or Cybertruck.  

 

Exactly. Same goes for the Rivian. Also, Ford is “on track to launch self-driving vehicles for commercial use in 2021”?  I think most would agree that there isn’t a snowballs chance in hell AV’s will be on public roadways for years. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, Harley Lover said:

From Auto News:

 

 

 

So - that seems to confirm that plans remain in place to build Transit Connect in Mexico, but to transfer units to the facility in Detroit to be fitted with the AV interior, etc. as described in the article. Unless the plans change again.

 

Last year some higher ups walked through MAP and when they came over to Wayne Assembly they were amazed that they had a building that was 90% empty just sitting there and they had no idea. Rumor is they didn't even know about the 3 robot lines operating in that building. I'm  assuming based on that, that is where the idea to put the AV upfit center here was born. When they announced it was coming earlier this year but didn't say where it would be I had a feeling it would be there and I'm pretty sure I said as much in another thread here. It made way more sense than building a whole new building for it. 

[Assimilator]

The mainstream automakers have an exceptionally poor record countering Tesla however, I'm not sure where this confidence is coming from but they haven't earned any of it yet.  And the one thing you can't say about Cybertruck is that it's an easy thing to duplicate should it become the phenomenon it appears poised to be.  An F-150 with a battery pack and IRS....that's not very compelling.  I'm not typically pessimistic about Ford, but what I'm seeing with the F-150 BEV is just not encouraging since I know that battery is very expensive.  It could become the Detroit truck norm while others go in more innovative directions, I don't know.  I'm not a fan of the converted ICE approach, it's always terrible compared to the dedicated architecture, but that might be the only approach that makes sense for the F-150.  The only problem with this approach is that you basically get a worse EV and a worse F-150.  Ford is calling this a "Zero Emission F-150" in their corporate documents which gives you some insight into their outlook.

 

GM appears to be year or two ahead of Ford on getting a BEV truck to market, so we'll see what they do. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Assimilator

[fuzzymoomoo]

31 minutes ago, Assimilator said:

GM appears to be year or two ahead of Ford on getting a BEV truck to market, so we'll see what they do. 

 

Lol wut?

 

Ford is launching BEV F-150 next year. GM is only just starting a YEARLONG retooling project at D-Ham in February 

[jcartwright99]

1 hour ago, Assimilator said:

The mainstream automakers have an exceptionally poor record countering Tesla however, I'm not sure where this confidence is coming from but they haven't earned any of it yet.  And the one thing you can't say about Cybertruck is that it's an easy thing to duplicate should it become the phenomenon it appears poised to be.  An F-150 with a battery pack and IRS....that's not very compelling.  I'm not typically pessimistic about Ford, but what I'm seeing with the F-150 BEV is just not encouraging since I know that battery is very expensive.  It could become the Detroit truck norm while others go in more innovative directions, I don't know.  I'm not a fan of the converted ICE approach, it's always terrible compared to the dedicated architecture, but that might be the only approach that makes sense for the F-150.  The only problem with this approach is that you basically get a worse EV and a worse F-150.  Ford is calling this a "Zero Emission F-150" in their corporate documents which gives you some insight into their outlook.

 

GM appears to be year or two ahead of Ford on getting a BEV truck to market, so we'll see what they do. 

 

 

 

 

 

If there is anything I am certain of, is that Ford will fight to the death to protect the F series. Tesla may have their protype F250, but I wouldn't start believing anything Musk says including price. You can doubt the BEV F150 but you can bet Ford won't sully the F150 name with a poorly performing BEV. Naysayers said the same thing about Ecoboost and to lesser extent Aluminum bodies, and that has turned out just fine.

[jasonj80]

1 hour ago, Assimilator said:

The mainstream automakers have an exceptionally poor record countering Tesla however, I'm not sure where this confidence is coming from but they haven't earned any of it yet.  And the one thing you can't say about Cybertruck is that it's an easy thing to duplicate should it become the phenomenon it appears poised to be.

How do you expect any company to compete/counter with what is a ponzi scheme of a company, fan boys worship, doesn't have to produce a profit on any unit it sells, tells government agencies to go pound sand, markets items far beyond what their technology is capable by calling it "beta" or "activate later", just tosses out dates and prices and never hits those targets,  plays accounting games to book revenue, manipulates the press to sell more snake oil and people hand over millions in deposits for vehicles that won't hit any of the promises . There is no company in the history of the modern market that has done that.

 

Tesla doesn't have to play by the same rules as anyone else, Elon paid 2.6 billion to his cousins to buy Solar City with Tesla stock and then assumed all Solar City debt. He basically wrote a 2.6 billion dollar check to a family member and Tesla share holders and fanboys are okay with that.

 

[rperez817]

2 hours ago, Assimilator said:

I'm not a fan of the converted ICE approach, it's always terrible compared to the dedicated architecture, but that might be the only approach that makes sense for the F-150. 

 

I agree Assimilator sir. Converted ICE BEV designs are always a compromise.

 

Are you sure that Ford isn't coming up with a electric vehicle optimized design for the upcoming BEV F-150 and Super Duty? Ford can't afford to screw this up, and I don't think they will. Especially now that Tesla is competing on Ford's turf.

Edited December 18, 2019 by rperez817

[fordmantpw]

50 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

I agree Assimilator sir. Converted ICE BEV designs are always a compromise.

 

Are you sure that Ford isn't coming up with a electric vehicle optimized design for the upcoming BEV F-150 and Super Duty? Ford can't afford to screw this up, and I don't think they will. Especially now that Tesla is claims they will be competing on Ford's turf in a couple years.

 

FTFY.

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, Assimilator said:

1.  The mainstream automakers have an exceptionally poor record countering Tesla however, I'm not sure where this confidence is coming from but they haven't earned any of it yet.  And the one thing you can't say about Cybertruck is that it's an easy thing to duplicate should it become the phenomenon it appears poised to be.  
 

 

2.  An F-150 with a battery pack and IRS....that's not very compelling.  I'm not typically pessimistic about Ford, but what I'm seeing with the F-150 BEV is just not encouraging since I know that battery is very expensive.  It could become the Detroit truck norm while others go in more innovative directions, I don't know.

 

 

 

 3.  I'm not a fan of the converted ICE approach, it's always terrible compared to the dedicated architecture, but that might be the only approach that makes sense for the F-150.  The only problem with this approach is that you basically get a worse EV and a worse F-150.  Ford is calling this a "Zero Emission F-150" in their corporate documents which gives you some insight into their outlook.

 

4.  GM appears to be year or two ahead of Ford on getting a BEV truck to market, so we'll see what they do. 

1. Until now, Tesla has avoided competing with Detroit in it product heart land, full sized trucks. You watch them respond to this challenge, they know their truck customers way better than Mr Musk.

 

2. As long as Musk’s ass points to the ground, he will never have $11 billion to drop on new products and still have near double that in reserve.

3. A large truck and its BOF construction is completely different kettle of fish to most other unitary ICEs, they have way more space underneath and between the chassis rails. It’s easier to adapt that than start with a skateboard. I get the zero emissions bit, especially with California and the aligned states wanting automakers to build x number of ZEV Trucks in order to keep selling ICE trucks.
 

4.  12 months ago Barra basically said GM had no interest in a BEV truck, now we’re to believe that GM is two years in front of Ford?

The large SUVs might be a different case......

[Harley Lover]

12 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Last year some higher ups walked through MAP and when they came over to Wayne Assembly they were amazed that they had a building that was 90% empty just sitting there and they had no idea. Rumor is they didn't even know about the 3 robot lines operating in that building. I'm  assuming based on that, that is where the idea to put the AV upfit center here was born. When they announced it was coming earlier this year but didn't say where it would be I had a feeling it would be there and I'm pretty sure I said as much in another thread here. It made way more sense than building a whole new building for it. 

 

Fuzzy, what kind of upfitting to Rangers and Broncos will be done there (referenced in the article)?

[akirby]

31 minutes ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Fuzzy, what kind of upfitting to Rangers and Broncos will be done there (referenced in the article)?

I think for F150 it does stripes, bedliners, etc. - things that they can’t or don’t want to do on the assembly line.

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, Harley Lover said:

 

Fuzzy, what kind of upfitting to Rangers and Broncos will be done there (referenced in the article)?

 

Pretty much what akirby said. As for Bronco I have no idea, they’re keeping that very quiet. If there's some kind of graphics package (beyond the usual 4x4 stickers you see on trucks) it would be done there. 

[Assimilator]

The F-150 BEV is a 2023 Model, it's not arriving next year, although the Hybrid is.  

[rmc523]

24 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

 

Pretty much what akirby said. As for Bronco I have no idea, they’re keeping that very quiet. If there's some kind of graphics package (beyond the usual 4x4 stickers you see on trucks) it would be done there. 

 

I wonder if it could be a place they add some of the factory accessories they seem poised to offer on Bronco?

---

 

I also wonder what a sporty BEV only "F-100" following in the footsteps of the '97-03 F-150 would look like.

[fuzzymoomoo]

21 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

I wonder if it could be a place they add some of the factory accessories they seem poised to offer on Bronco?

 

Absolutely. 

[akirby]

I expect Bronco to have a LOT of factory add-ons.

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

I expect Bronco to have a LOT of factory add-ons.

That is a view shared by Ford, especially for some of the more popular accessories and add-ons.

[Assimilator]

Ranger or Bronco Raptors seem like prime candidates for the upfit facility, but Ford Trademarked several names suggesting unique low volume trim series for the Bronco.  

Edited December 18, 2019 by Assimilator

[blksn8k2]

I haven't seen any mention of this but doesn't it seem a little coincidental that this announcement was made shortly after the passage of the USMCA in the House of Representatives?