rperez817 Posted January 7, 2021 Author Share Posted January 7, 2021 12 minutes ago, atomcat68 said: Their Cuv/SUV market weathered the covid storm this year, but I'm shocked their car lineup is such a dumpster fire! The 20.4% decline in TMNA passenger car sales for calendar year 2020 was better than the other top 5 automakers in the U.S. Passenger car sales declined 23.2% at American Honda, 44.7% at Ford, 38.2% at General Motors, and 39.3% at Nissan. As a result, Toyota is gaining market share in the U.S. passenger car market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: The 20.4% decline in TMNA passenger car sales for calendar year 2020 was better than the other top 5 automakers in the U.S. Passenger car sales declined 23.2% at American Honda, 44.7% at Ford, 38.2% at General Motors, and 39.3% at Nissan. As a result, Toyota is gaining market share in the U.S. passenger car market. Should be no surprise...entry level offering (cuv/suv) at $30k are atrocious and it requires cash on hood from ford to move.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 3 hours ago, akirby said: Ford has at least 400k units on the way between Bronco, Bronco sport, Maverick and Mach-e. Plus F150 catchup. Quite possible. But you probably have to subtract some from Edge and Fusion which are aging rapidly. Also too early to assume Escape sales will hold up. So it won't be a net 400k gain in 2021. Toyota will likewise bounce back from COVID year. They will be the one defending #2 spot so they won't soft pedal it. I predict Venza is going to be the sleeper hit of the year with hybrid CUV buyers. We've seen this story before. Once Toyota pass Ford in a market the trend usually doesn't reverses. Toyota now sells more vehicles in Europe than Ford for example. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 19 minutes ago, bzcat said: Quite possible. But you probably have to subtract some from Edge and Fusion which are aging rapidly. Also too early to assume Escape sales will hold up. So it won't be a net 400k gain in 2021. Toyota will likewise bounce back from COVID year. They will be the one defending #2 spot so they won't soft pedal it. I predict Venza is going to be the sleeper hit of the year with hybrid CUV buyers. We've seen this story before. Once Toyota pass Ford in a market the trend usually doesn't reverses. Toyota now sells more vehicles in Europe than Ford for example. I think Escape sales will not only hold up but increase. You’re right on the leftover Fusion sales though. I don’t see a huge impact on edge either, but edge sales might drop on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted January 8, 2021 Author Share Posted January 8, 2021 15 minutes ago, bzcat said: Once Toyota pass Ford in a market the trend usually doesn't reverses. Toyota now sells more vehicles in Europe than Ford for example. Yes sir bzcat. When Toyota is successful getting a "conquest" customer who previously bought Fords, that customer is unlikely to ever buy a Ford product again. For this reason, Ford needs to be more aggressive with its BEV strategy. Toyota is behind almost all the other big global automakers with BEV. This presents a great opportunity for Ford to strengthen its base of existing customers while adding new customers as well. Maybe some of those new customers will be Toyota owners who are disappointed with Toyota's slow progress introducing BEV for the U.S. market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 Toyota is waiting on BEV which is a very smart move...yota dam well has a handle on the current tech..the rush to BEV can be an indicator of auto manuf financial health...smart play is still to sit on the side lines and see how it all shakes-out (then pounce) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 On 1/6/2021 at 4:09 PM, akirby said: I'm starting to think Nautilus is in limbo where the Corsair is almost the same size ( I sat in them back to back and there isn't a huge difference) and a base Aviator is more appealing for a lot of buyers especially when Nautilus doesn't offer a hybrid. I think a cheaper SWB 2 row Aviator with regular hybrid options for better MPG at a lower price point than the Aviator GT would work just as well. This is probably why they're looking at other options for the next Gen. Edge is probably in the same boat. Of course the Edge and Nautilus are in limbo hence the reason ford isnt doing much for them til they let get even staler before we retool sometime in Oakville in the mid 2020s! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 50 minutes ago, akirby said: I think Escape sales will not only hold up but increase. You’re right on the leftover Fusion sales though. I don’t see a huge impact on edge either, but edge sales might drop on its own. They are holding up......Ford sales down over 9% last quarter and Escape sales down less than 2%. And unlike Explorer, it was probably more retail than fleet/cop sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 42 minutes ago, snooter said: Toyota is waiting on BEV which is a very smart move...yota dam well has a handle on the current tech..the rush to BEV can be an indicator of auto manuf financial health...smart play is still to sit on the side lines and see how it all shakes-out (then pounce) I don't think Toyota believes in BEVs......most of their resources are going into hydrogen fuel cells that charge onboard battery. So they are much cleaner as they emit only water and no plug into power grid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 What is being done is trading one pollution source for another (BEV)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Oacjay98 said: Of course the Edge and Nautilus are in limbo hence the reason ford isnt doing much for them til they let get even staler before we retool sometime in Oakville in the mid 2020s! I meant in limbo from a market perspective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 54 minutes ago, FordBuyer said: So they are much cleaner as they emit only water and no plug into power grid. You have to create, transport and store the hydrogen somehow. It doesn’t just fall out of the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 2 hours ago, snooter said: What is being done is trading one pollution source for another (BEV)... Hydrogen can be produced from water or landfill gas.....both much cleaner than any huge power plant. Toyota is not stupid. I do get it though that hydrogen gas station infrastructure is not there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 1 hour ago, FordBuyer said: Hydrogen can be produced from water or landfill gas.....both much cleaner than any huge power plant. Toyota is not stupid. I do get it though that hydrogen gas station infrastructure is not there. This one 11-year-old chart explains the problem with hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles (greencarreports.com) Toyota is into fuel cells because the Japanese government is subsidizing them to tune of ~ $20K per car. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oac98 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 3 hours ago, akirby said: I meant in limbo from a market perspective Well ya they certainly are from the market perspective. I do agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgeh Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) Love the little bit at the end when Cramer has to clarify that he doesn't hate Tesla, to avoid an angry Twitter storm... https://www.cnbc.com/video/2021/01/06/jim-cramer-theres-room-for-both-ford-and-tesla.html Edited January 8, 2021 by Gurgeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotRunrGuy Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Gurgeh said: Love the little bit at the end when Cramer has to clarify that he doesn't hate Tesla, to avoid an angry Twitter storm... https://www.cnbc.com/video/2021/01/06/jim-cramer-theres-room-for-both-ford-and-tesla.html Can you imagine the reaction if he talked negatively about a stock that's up 1200% in 1 year? HRG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said: Can you imagine the reaction if he talked negatively about a stock that's up 1200% in 1 year? HRG Elon Musk just passed Jeff Bezos as world's richest man. Meanwhile, Jeff's ex wife, the world's richest woman just gave away half her wealth to charity. Not sure what Muzk does with his billions other than try to rocket to and live on a dead planet. Maybe he will buy GM with about 5% of his wealth. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 14 hours ago, AGR said: This one 11-year-old chart explains the problem with hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles (greencarreports.com) Toyota is into fuel cells because the Japanese government is subsidizing them to tune of ~ $20K per car. You mean the laws of physics and chemistry cannot be undone by wishful thinking? Shocking revelation... ? Yes, you can make hydrogen from water but it also requires massive amount of energy to separate the H and O because H is super clinging... simple chemistry. Making hydrogen is a net energy loser. We are not going to be using hydrogen as transportation fuel on any wide scale because it is highly inefficient source of energy. You are better off just burning the fossil fuel directly that are required to make and distribute hydrogen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 2 hours ago, bzcat said: You mean the laws of physics and chemistry cannot be undone by wishful thinking? Shocking revelation... ? Yes, you can make hydrogen from water but it also requires massive amount of energy to separate the H and O because H is super clinging... simple chemistry. Making hydrogen is a net energy loser. We are not going to be using hydrogen as transportation fuel on any wide scale because it is highly inefficient source of energy. You are better off just burning the fossil fuel directly that are required to make and distribute hydrogen. Fuel cell prices reduced 70-80% last year on increased manufacturing, it should be seen as a parallel technology that complements electrification, that ZEV range extender bullet needed for certain vehicles like maybe large trucks where the size, weight and range of batteries won't be there anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.