jpd80 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 1 hour ago, slemke said: Haaaaahaaaa....Toyota made a K car. I’m skeptical about it being all new. Mainly because of all the all new claims that are questionable. But haven’t read any actual breakdowns of the product to know. I thought it borrowed some suspension components for a previous generation E class. Maybe some of the platform sharing with an E class was just marketing. Similar to the all new claims. Cars like Camry follow the evolutionary party and not unlike the Aussie Falcon, all the parts and sheet metal change over time. For those of you thinking about Bronco kick off being late 2016, that occurred because the US suddenly wanted a Ranger ASAP, so was developed off the final refresh or the global Ranger, there was no time or funds to even consider a reconfigure for a Vee engine as GEN 1 T6 was basically done. So that leaves me with two possibilities, either Bronco Sport was the original "Bronco" planned pre 2016 or..... Bronco was a rework of a squarer North American Escape as a breakaway from the European Kuga shape. Either way, I think that Ford has pulled off a master stroke with two Broncos...... maybe drive the nail in with a SWB Expedition based "Bronco Max"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 13 minutes ago, jpd80 said: Cars like Camry follow the evolutionary party and not unlike the Aussie Falcon, all the parts and sheet metal change over time. For those of you thinking about Bronco kick off being late 2016, that occurred because the US suddenly wanted a Ranger ASAP, so was developed off the final refresh or the global Ranger, there was no time or funds to even consider a reconfigure for a Vee engine as GEN 1 T6 was basically done. So that leaves me with two possibilities, either Bronco Sport was the original "Bronco" planned pre 2016 or..... Bronco was a rework of a squarer North American Escape as a breakaway from the European Kuga shape. Either way, I think that Ford has pulled off a master stroke with two Broncos...... maybe drive the nail in with a SWB Expedition based "Bronco Max"? I just don't know how big that market would be? You'd obviously have to go 4 door only too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, rmc523 said: I just don't know how big that market would be? You'd obviously have to go 4 door only too. Not necessarily, two door, 6.8 V8....delusional? Probably. Edited March 16, 2021 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 4 hours ago, jpd80 said: So that leaves me with two possibilities, either Bronco Sport was the original "Bronco" planned pre 2016 or..... Bronco was a rework of a squarer North American Escape as a breakaway from the European Kuga shape. Either way, I think that Ford has pulled off a master stroke with two Broncos...... maybe drive the nail in with a SWB Expedition based "Bronco Max"? I think the Bronco Sport is actually the the Gen X/Z CUV that was referenced back around 2015/16 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 5 hours ago, jpd80 said: Not necessarily, two door, 6.8 V8....delusional? Probably. Why not just throw an expedition shell on an F250 Tremor. If you’re going big, go big. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 16 hours ago, FR739 said: That’s always what I’ve thought. I’m sure there were other things as well but Fields was barely there long enough to make substantial changes. And his gut feeling of a downturn panned out wonderfully with the Covid hysteria. He certainly was better suited for the job than the furniture salesman. An entirely new front end, trunk lid, and interior changes. I think that’s the literal definition of a MCE. But the Fusion sport was horribly done. Probably one of Fords worst efforts because there wasn’t any effort. Just a big engine with a garbage transmission (or transmission programming) behind it. Visually it was awful too with very little differentiation from a normal Fusion. And it was overpriced. But I really like the way the MCE pulled the design together. The Fusion alway look fine but the MCE gave it a level of sophistication that was missing prior. It’s funny how people view differently. I hated the MCE. I thought it was a step backwards in its exterior design. With that said, to the untrained Ford enthusiast eye, the average Joe probably didn’t even realize there were any changes to the Fusion, and therefore sales reflected that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probowler Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 7 hours ago, jpd80 said: Not necessarily, two door, 6.8 V8....delusional? Probably. And I shall name him Super Bronco, and he shall be mine! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 12 hours ago, rmc523 said: What'd they change on the '21? I'm finding it hard to see a difference. New front fascia, wheel designs, infotainment screen, dash and console trim, seating surface design, Toyota Safety Sense 2.5+, available all-wheel drive (the last one was added as a late production option for 2020 Camry). Clear-Cut Leader: The 2021 Toyota Camry Adds More Variants While Advancing Safety - Toyota USA Newsroom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 11 hours ago, slemke said: Maybe some of the platform sharing with an E class was just marketing. DaimlerChrysler, Chrysler LLC, and FCA/Stellantis never stated in marketing materials (or anywhere else) that its LX and LD vehicles shared a platform with Mercedes-Benz E-Class, because they don't. The LX platform was a "clean sheet" design from Chrysler whose development started before Chrysler and Daimler merged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 15 minutes ago, rperez817 said: New front fascia, wheel designs, infotainment screen, dash and console trim, seating surface design, Toyota Safety Sense 2.5+, available all-wheel drive (the last one was added as a late production option for 2020 Camry). Clear-Cut Leader: The 2021 Toyota Camry Adds More Variants While Advancing Safety - Toyota USA Newsroom It's a 2021 Nautilus level exterior change with a slightly different lower bumper. Inside they flipped the air vents and screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FR739 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 18 hours ago, rmc523 said: Yes, but it wasn't changed enough. I agree it looks better than pre-refresh, but it still looked way too similar, especially out back. Hasn’t seemed to hurt the F150. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 1 hour ago, FR739 said: Hasn’t seemed to hurt the F150. F150 gets significant visual updates every 3 years. It’s the poster child for keeping a vehicle fresh and updated. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, akirby said: F150 gets significant visual updates every 3 years. It’s the poster child for keeping a vehicle fresh and updated. Summary of Ford F-150 update cadence since 11th generation, by model year. 2004 - Model changeover with new platform, new powertrains 2006 - midcycle refresh 2009 - Model changeover with update to existing platform 2011 - midcycle refresh, new powertrains 2013 - 2nd midcycle refresh 2015 - Model changeover with new platform, new powertrains 2018 - midcycle refresh, new powertrains 2021 - Model changeover with update to existing platform, new powertrain (hybrid only) Edited March 16, 2021 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 8 hours ago, rperez817 said: DaimlerChrysler, Chrysler LLC, and FCA/Stellantis never stated in marketing materials (or anywhere else) that its LX and LD vehicles shared a platform with Mercedes-Benz E-Class, because they don't. The LX platform was a "clean sheet" design from Chrysler whose development started before Chrysler and Daimler merged. Ummm...this says differently: https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/the-mercedes-connection-to-dodge-charger-and-challenger-explained/ I doubt I got my original information from muscle cars and trucks. What the article states seems plausible and is similar to what I recall reading about the platform. My quick google search yielded many similar results stating suspension design and components borrowed from E-class and S-class along with the 5 speed automatic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 54 minutes ago, akirby said: F150 gets significant visual updates every 3 years. It’s the poster child for keeping a vehicle fresh and updated. Significant might be pushing it. But they do change it enough to be noticed by many. Unlike the 2014 GM trucks that were barely distinguished from their predecessors. No problem distinguishing the latest GM trucks from their predecessors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 F150 and SDs are cash cows, Ford knows it has to keep them fresh. For the rest of the products, it depends who is in the chair at the time, I just hope that Ford has learned its lessons about refreshing and launch problems 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Part of the problem with both Fields and Hackett was likability. Fields had the “hair” and personal weekly trips to his home on the corporate jet during times of cost cutting. Success at such a young age (38 when he ran Mazda) didn’t help. Hackett wasn’t a good public speaker and wasn’t an automotive insider...”the furniture guy”. Not being a good public speaker exacerbated the issue of him being an outsider with a credibility problem. While Mullaly wasn’t a car guy, he was an experienced engineer and leader at Boeing. He also had a very likable personality and smiled a lot. He just had so much enthusiasm that rubbed off on others and created good will. He was able to keep his salary after Congress questioned him about taking a symbolic $1 salary. Fields on the other hand had the corporate jet removed from his perks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 F150 and SDs are cash cows, Ford knows it has to keep them fresh. For the rest of the products, it depends who is in the chair at the time, I just hope that Ford has learned its lessons about refreshing and launch problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FR739 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, jpd80 said: F150 and SDs are cash cows, Ford knows it has to keep them fresh. For the rest of the products, it depends who is in the chair at the time, I just hope that Ford has learned its lessons about refreshing and launch problems The “new” F150 looks just like the last generation from 2015 with a tweaked nose and rear end. The visual updates are minimal although they do go a little farther than the Fusion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, slemke said: Ummm...this says differently: https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/the-mercedes-connection-to-dodge-charger-and-challenger-explained/ Thank you for this link slemke sir, it actually confirms that Chrysler LX and LD platforms are not based on the platforms used by Mercedes-Benz E-Class of any generation, whether W124, W210, or W211. The "Mercedes connection" the article points out consists of 2 things. 1. Chrysler engineers were able to learn from their Daimler counterparts after the companies merged. These learnings were applied to things like suspension design, though the final design for LX/LD was Chrysler's. 2. For LX cars, Chrysler used some of the same suppliers that Daimler did. But the notion that Chrysler LX or LD cars stem from the 1995 Mercedes-Benz E-Class is false. That's like saying the second generation Volvo S80 V8 stems from the 1996 Ford Taurus SHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 6 hours ago, FR739 said: Hasn’t seemed to hurt the F150. Hardly. They change it significantly enough to where it's a new design to most people 1 hour ago, FR739 said: The “new” F150 looks just like the last generation from 2015 with a tweaked nose and rear end. The visual updates are minimal although they do go a little farther than the Fusion. Ok.... Expecting a drastic change to the profile isn't realistic, and unless they want to tack on 18 bizarre and ugly crease lines a la Chevy, there are only so many ways to change the profile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 34 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Thank you for this link slemke sir, it actually confirms that Chrysler LX and LD platforms are not based on the platforms used by Mercedes-Benz E-Class of any generation, whether W124, W210, or W211. The "Mercedes connection" the article points out consists of 2 things. 1. Chrysler engineers were able to learn from their Daimler counterparts after the companies merged. These learnings were applied to things like suspension design, though the final design for LX/LD was Chrysler's. 2. For LX cars, Chrysler used some of the same suppliers that Daimler did. But the notion that Chrysler LX or LD cars stem from the 1995 Mercedes-Benz E-Class is false. That's like saying the second generation Volvo S80 V8 stems from the 1996 Ford Taurus SHO. For the Mercedes platformed Chrysler, the crossfire fits the bill :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Crossfire I see what you did there bringing this back around to Fields since this was in the 2005 timeframe. He would have been running PAG during the development. Wasn’t the tooling for the sho v8 block given to Volvo for the 4.4L v8 with the heads still designed by Yamaha? The block castings were different (closed deck sand cast vs open deck die cast), but bore spacing, stroke and deck height were the same. Plausible that some tooling was reused, but the design is certainly different enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemke Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, rmc523 said: Hardly. They change it significantly enough to where it's a new design to most people Ok.... Expecting a drastic change to the profile isn't realistic, and unless they want to tack on 18 bizarre and ugly crease lines a la Chevy, there are only so many ways to change the profile. Cyber truck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, FR739 said: The “new” F150 looks just like the last generation from 2015 with a tweaked nose and rear end. The visual updates are minimal although they do go a little farther than the Fusion. I tend to agree with you on the new generation of F150. I would have liked to have seen a little bolder changes to the body for me, but it is slightly better than the 2014 GM change. With that said, it likely won’t impact sales in a negative manner. 1 hour ago, slemke said: Cyber truck But not this bold of a change! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 5 hours ago, FR739 said: The “new” F150 looks just like the last generation from 2015 with a tweaked nose and rear end. The visual updates are minimal although they do go a little farther than the Fusion. And that's probably the way a lot of those returning buyers like it, it's no coincidence that past dues keep turning up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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