rperez817 Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, blwnsmoke said: Nothing CR says about vehicles is a reason to buy or not buy them. Both automakers and consumers disagree with that statement. But even it were true and Consumer Reports didn't exist, CKNSLS is fully justified putting Toyota Tundra on his pickup truck shopping list based on that truck's historically class leading reliability and resale value. Sources other than CR confirm this. Edited August 14, 2021 by rperez817 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 20 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Both automakers and consumers disagree with that statement. But even it were true and Consumer Reports didn't exist, CKNSLS is fully justified putting Toyota Tundra on his pickup truck shopping list based on that truck's historically class leading reliability and resale value. Sources other than CR confirm this. Automakers don't want any negative press period, regardless of who is publishing it. Many consumers agree with my statement. Gone are the times where the red, half red, clear, half black and black circles mean anything. It has been said time and time again that vehicles these days are far more safer and reliable than 20 years ago. The difference in quality and reliability between that best and worst are far closer than the Hyundais vs the Hondas of the 80s. And even YOU pointed out that the Tundra has basically been the same truck and the all new redesign may take some hits in reviews and rankings for quality. So how would it be fair to compare a very old truck vs vehicles that are constantly updated and changed? You also have F series that sell 7 times the Tundra (2/3s are F150s) so you will obviously have more problems when you build 7 (5 for F150) times the amount. So is that taken into account with CR when they publish their little circles? Google away in 3... 2... 1... PS - Not knocking the Tundra (I wouldn't buy one), I'd say the same thing for any other truck (except Nissan). They are all extremely close in quality. One should choose not only based on price but what they are getting for the price in terms of features, capability, ride quality etc. Not because "Toyota is quality and others are not". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 4 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said: I've always thought he puts way too much stock into those surveys. everything he reads FTFY 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, rperez817 said: Both automakers and consumers disagree with that statement. But even it were true and Consumer Reports didn't exist, CKNSLS is fully justified putting Toyota Tundra on his pickup truck shopping list based on that truck's historically class leading reliability and resale value. Sources other than CR confirm this. I was in a Ford Dealership just when the pandemic started (about a year ago) and availability was coming in to question-this dealership was offering little in the way of incentives/discounts. Just before I walked out I had the "mandatory" interaction with the sales manager. I said I wasn't going to buy one until I could get $10,000.00 off sticker. (As had been previously practiced at certain times of year) and he told me it will probably be "at least a year" before that happens. I said OK-I will wait. NOW-if "made to order" results in higher transaction prices"-so putting the Tundra on my list is a result of "unintended circumstances" of Ford making a change in the way they do business. I can pay (possibly) slightly more for the Tundra-get it back at trade in time. It's really very simple. Edited August 14, 2021 by CKNSLS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 2 hours ago, blwnsmoke said: Automakers don't want any negative press period, regardless of who is publishing it. Many consumers agree with my statement. Gone are the times where the red, half red, clear, half black and black circles mean anything. It has been said time and time again that vehicles these days are far more safer and reliable than 20 years ago. The difference in quality and reliability between that best and worst are far closer than the Hyundais vs the Hondas of the 80s. And even YOU pointed out that the Tundra has basically been the same truck and the all new redesign may take some hits in reviews and rankings for quality. So how would it be fair to compare a very old truck vs vehicles that are constantly updated and changed? You also have F series that sell 7 times the Tundra (2/3s are F150s) so you will obviously have more problems when you build 7 (5 for F150) times the amount. So is that taken into account with CR when they publish their little circles? Google away in 3... 2... 1... PS - Not knocking the Tundra (I wouldn't buy one), I'd say the same thing for any other truck (except Nissan). They are all extremely close in quality. One should choose not only based on price but what they are getting for the price in terms of features, capability, ride quality etc. Not because "Toyota is quality and others are not". Excellent points, the objective engineering qualities such as long term reliability, safety, fuel efficiency etc, are all virtually identical amongst competing products. Which is why design and driving dynamics are the most important components of a modern car, because that's what distinguishes cars for each other more than anything else now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 1 hour ago, CKNSLS said: I was in a Ford Dealership just when the pandemic started (about a year ago) and availability was coming in to question-this dealership was offering little in the way of incentives/discounts. Just before I walked out I had the "mandatory" interaction with the sales manager. I said I wasn't going to buy one until I could get $10,000.00 off sticker. (As had been previously practiced at certain times of year) and he told me it will probably be "at least a year" before that happens. I said OK-I will wait. NOW-if "made to order" results in higher transaction prices"-so putting the Tundra on my list is a result of "unintended circumstances" of Ford making a change in the way they do business. I can pay (possibly) slightly more for the Tundra-get it back at trade in time. It's really very simple. Dude, just say you want the Tundra more than the Ford and be done with it. No need to keep beating around the bush. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 16 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: Dude, just say you want the Tundra more than the Ford and be done with it. No need to keep beating around the bush. Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, too. Sounds like he would really prefer the Toyota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, CurtisH said: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, too. Sounds like he would really prefer the Toyota. NOT TRUE. I am still undecided. Have to see what the market price is (with both Ford/Toyota) and what the grill on the non-TRD Tundra looks like. Edited August 14, 2021 by CKNSLS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisH Posted August 14, 2021 Share Posted August 14, 2021 5 hours ago, CKNSLS said: NOT TRUE. I am still undecided. Have to see what the market price is (with both Ford/Toyota) and what the grill on the non-TRD Tundra looks like. Good luck with whichever one you choose. I’m not a fan of the Tundra, but either truck should serve you well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 10 hours ago, blwnsmoke said: You also have F series that sell 7 times the Tundra (2/3s are F150s) so you will obviously have more problems when you build 7 (5 for F150) times the amount. So is that taken into account with CR when they publish their little circles? Yes sir blwnsmoke, that's taken into account. CR's automotive reliability survey reports the relative likelihood of a particular vehicle experiencing problems that owners consider serious, compared to the average for all vehicles. Like other reliability surveys, CR's reliability verdicts are based on problem rate (problems per 100 vehicles or something like that), not on the total number of people who submitted survey responses indicating problems for a particular model. As such, the fact that F-Series sells 7x more than Tundra should not and does not have an impact on the reliability data for either model, as both have more than sufficient sample size of owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 34 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Yes sir blwnsmoke, that's taken into account. CR's automotive reliability survey reports the relative likelihood of a particular vehicle experiencing problems that owners consider serious, compared to the average for all vehicles. Like other reliability surveys, CR's reliability verdicts are based on problem rate (problems per 100 vehicles or something like that), not on the total number of people who submitted survey responses indicating problems for a particular model. As such, the fact that F-Series sells 7x more than Tundra should not and does not have an impact on the reliability data for either model, as both have more than sufficient sample size of owners. So you think a sample size of 200-300 vehicles over half a million built a year is sufficient? Gotcha. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, blwnsmoke said: So you think a sample size of 200-300 vehicles over half a million built a year is sufficient? Gotcha. That's like predicting a major league team will win 120 games after winning on opening day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 11 minutes ago, blwnsmoke said: So you think a sample size of 200-300 vehicles over half a million built a year is sufficient? Gotcha. 200-300 is more than sufficient for sampling purposes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 12 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said: That's like predicting a major league team will win 120 games after winning on opening day. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 25 minutes ago, rperez817 said: 200-300 is more than sufficient for sampling purposes. 200-300 from CR subscribers is sufficient to tell how reliable 500,000 vehicles will be. Lmao. I just can't even... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 The reason why Toyota has great reliability is they let every vehicle rot on the vine but people still buy them. Spruce them up a little bit on the exterior. I think the Corolla was still available with a 4 SPEED AUTO in 2016. They had been using the same transmission for over 20 years and people wonder why the don't break. How old is the Tacoma and 4Runner? I expect the same for this generation of the Tundra, if we use the "truck that changed everything" but in reality changed nothing and merely had great specs on arrival as reference. After 4 years on the market, it will be an after thought for anyone not tied to getting a Toyota or looking for a good deal. If I am getting 10 -12 MPG, it better be a TRX not some engine with half the power. You're blowing that resale value every time you hit the pump. I've said this before, the target buyer for "most" Toyota are people who view cars as an appliance. That's why what consumer reports resonates with these folks. I find it comical that one can rationalize buying an inferior product due to reliability and resale value. To each their own, I guess! If you have ever driven a Camry or Corolla, you know it's virtually the plain no butter/sugar/fruit oatmeal of the segment. Plain oatmeal (no soul)! I think the only car that Toyota makes with any soul is the Supra and that's part BMW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, jcartwright99 said: The reason why Toyota has great reliability is they let every vehicle rot on the vine but people still buy them. Spruce them up a little bit on the exterior. I think the Corolla was still available with a 4 SPEED AUTO in 2016. They had been using the same transmission for over 20 years and people wonder why the don't break. How old is the Tacoma and 4Runner? I expect the same for this generation of the Tundra, if we use the "truck that changed everything" but in reality changed nothing and merely had great specs on arrival as reference. After 4 years on the market, it will be an after thought for anyone not tied to getting a Toyota or looking for a good deal. If I am getting 10 -12 MPG, it better be a TRX not some engine with half the power. You're blowing that resale value every time you hit the pump. I've said this before, the target buyer for "most" Toyota are people who view cars as an appliance. That's why what consumer reports resonates with these folks. I find it comical that one can rationalize buying an inferior product due to reliability and resale value. To each their own, I guess! If you have ever driven a Camry or Corolla, you know it's virtually the plain no butter/sugar/fruit oatmeal of the segment. Plain oatmeal (no soul)! I think the only car that Toyota makes with any soul is the Supra and that's part BMW. At this points all the "teasers" (for the NEW 2022) point to a competitive product. It looks like a six cylinder with twin turbos and IRS. Calling the new model inferior-with very little information thus far-and before it hits the show room is really biased....but I get it-this is a FORD BOARD. Edited August 15, 2021 by CKNSLS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, CKNSLS said: At this points all the "teasers" (for the NEW 2022) point to a competitive product. It looks like a six cylinder with twin turbos and IRS. Calling the new model inferior-with very little information thus far-and before it hits the show room is really biased....but I get it-this is a FORD BOARD. It always has been inferior so based on history, it's what we have to go by until we see otherwise. My neighbor, had an old rav4, brought home a new one. Had a Tacoma and just upgraded to a Tundra. Both look very boring and I hate the majority of their styling (including Lexus front ends). I bet he is a CR subscriber. Edited August 15, 2021 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcartwright99 Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 19 minutes ago, CKNSLS said: At this points all the "teasers" (for the NEW 2022) point to a competitive product. It looks like a six cylinder with twin turbos and IRS. Calling the new model inferior-with very little information thus far-and before it hits the show room is really biased....but I get it-this is a FORD BOARD. Oh, I think it will be competitive at first. Much like the current one was when it was introduced. At first, it checked the boxes. However, the full size truck market is probably the most competitive market. If you are not continuously improving your truck and updating frequently, you are failing behind. That's not the Toyota way to update continuously. Thus, unless they change it will be competitive for the first few years and then left behind for another 12 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70 Stang Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, rperez817 said: Yes sir blwnsmoke, that's taken into account. CR's automotive reliability survey reports the relative likelihood of a particular vehicle experiencing problems that owners consider serious, compared to the average for all vehicles. Like other reliability surveys, CR's reliability verdicts are based on problem rate (problems per 100 vehicles or something like that), not on the total number of people who submitted survey responses indicating problems for a particular model. As such, the fact that F-Series sells 7x more than Tundra should not and does not have an impact on the reliability data for either model, as both have more than sufficient sample size of owners. What is not figured in these reports is the number of trucks used in business. These trucks get abused to no end. Ford sells more trucks to business than Toyota sells trucks period. Keeping reliability basically even between the two sounds like a pretty good accomplishment. I have tried to find an article I read several years ago that discussed this topic and how it affects resale value numbers. I have worked in construction my whole life, and I can count the number of Toyota "work" trucks I've seen on job sites on one hand. I'll pass 10 of the Big 3 trucks, with company names on them, on my way to work in the morning. Edited August 15, 2021 by 70 Stang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 (edited) https://www.hotcars.com/8-glaring-issues-found-in-toyota-tundra-pickups/ Just saying, they all have issues. Edited August 15, 2021 by blwnsmoke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted August 15, 2021 Author Share Posted August 15, 2021 On 8/14/2021 at 9:13 AM, rperez817 said: Both automakers and consumers disagree with that statement. But even it were true and Consumer Reports didn't exist, CKNSLS is fully justified putting Toyota Tundra on his pickup truck shopping list based on that truck's historically class leading reliability and resale value. Sources other than CR confirm this. I'd hope that building largely the same truck for 14 years would result in it being reliable/well built. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, blwnsmoke said: https://www.hotcars.com/8-glaring-issues-found-in-toyota-tundra-pickups/ Just saying, they all have issues. Your are correct. And if I took the time to do a "google search" on the F-150s there would be plenty of issues/recalls, etc. I don't really find posts of this nature in regards to any vehicle that fruitful. Look at the disaster of the Bronco launch, roofs, etc. Edited August 15, 2021 by CKNSLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 1 hour ago, CKNSLS said: Your are correct. And if I took the time to do a "google search" on the F-150s there would be plenty of issues/recalls, etc. I don't really find posts of this nature in regards to any vehicle that fruitful. Look at the disaster of the Bronco launch, roofs, etc. It’s just a counterpoint to “Toyotas are more reliable”. They’re not. They’re all about the same. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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