rperez817 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Putting this in the Competing Products area of the forum because Ford didn't win any brand level, model level, segment level, or plant level awards in this year's survey. 2021 U.S. Initial Quality Study (IQS) | J.D. Power (jdpower.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Well, at least Ford and Lincoln were average, and not below average. Surprised to see Subaru below average. Know Subaru plant in Japan has had lots of problems last few years though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Kia kicking Fords bottom. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 31, 2021 Author Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, coupe3w said: Kia kicking Fords bottom. Yes sir. Kia and the other 2 brands from Hyundai Motor Group have done consistently well in J.D. Power IQS for the past 5 years. In the 2021 study, Hyundai Motor Group has more models that rank highest in their segment than any other automaker, with 7. Toyota is next best with 5. Edited August 31, 2021 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted August 31, 2021 Author Share Posted August 31, 2021 39 minutes ago, FordBuyer said: Surprised to see Subaru below average. Subaru's STARLINK infotainment system is probably a big reason. It's less glitchy than when it originally came out a few years ago, but latest version has been criticized for lagginess, poor phone audio quality through Bluetooth, and confusing menu structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 10 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Subaru's STARLINK infotainment system is probably a big reason. It's less glitchy than when it originally came out a few years ago, but latest version has been criticized for lagginess, poor phone audio quality through Bluetooth, and confusing menu structure. I loved my Crosstrek the 3 years I had it, but the infotainment system was below average and not near as intuitive as the system in my Escape. And of course twice the fuel mileage and 10 more cubic feet of cargo space. If JD asked me about initial quality on my 2020 Escape, I would have to give it top score. Other than back up camera than finally replaced, almost ZERO initial quality problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 52 minutes ago, coupe3w said: Kia kicking Fords bottom. 1.47 problems per vehicle to 1.62 problems per nets to .15 problems per vehicle which rounds to ZERO. That's not a bottom kicking - that is a virtual TIE. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 33 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Yes sir. Kia and the other 2 brands from Hyundai Motor Group have done consistently well in J.D. Power IQS for the past 5 years. In the 2021 study, Hyundai Motor Group has more models that rank highest in their segment than any other automaker, with 7. Toyota is next best with 5. Comments like this from anit-Ford member rperez are really just negative and totally meaningless. Just proves you can't do simple math. 1.47 and 1.62 problems per vehicle - netting to .15, is a statistical tie. Really the top 25 rankings are so close - what customer would even notice 1.28 problems to 1.93 problems per vehicle? This study only shows that any customer of any new vehicle can expect to experience 1-2 'problems' with their new purchase to be covered under warranty. Trying to spin this as a Ford problem is ridiculous. Roads were I live are filled with brands from the bottom half of this chart- and the folks love their cars. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 30 minutes ago, Kev-Mo said: 1.47 problems per vehicle to 1.62 problems per nets to .15 problems per vehicle which rounds to ZERO. That's not a bottom kicking - that is a virtual TIE. I was making a joke. Sorry it went over your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Not really sure that initial quality really matters that much. My explorer has been flawless for 5 years. Pretty much every modern car is reliable relative to your average car from a few decades ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 It only matters from a customer satisfaction standpoint - having a problem on a brand new vehicle. That said even the best have one problem per vehicle and the worst have two and in most cases that translates to one dealer visit. So spastically speaking this is pretty irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 If you don't count MINI, Ford did better than every European brand. So much for German Engineering. Personally I don't put a lot of weight on the IQS. I'm more interested in the 5 year numbers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying68 Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Kev-Mo said: 1.47 and 1.62 problems per vehicle - netting to .15, is a statistical tie. Really the top 25 rankings are so close - what customer would even notice 1.28 problems to 1.93 problems per vehicle? This study only shows that any customer of any new vehicle can expect to experience 1-2 'problems' with their new purchase to be covered under warranty. Not sure if you ever took college or research level statistics, but this isn't a statistical tie. The numbers indicate Ford experiences 10% more problems per vehicle than KIA. Just so you know, a statistical tie would be when the difference in actual result is within the margin of error, which is affected by the sample size. Any result that is outside the margin of error is of two results statistically significant, which means it is unlikely to have occurred due to random chance. It may not matter to you, but it does to the warranty guys and it certainly matters to consumers, when they know that they are more likely to encounter an issue in Brand X vs Brand Y. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Flying68 said: Not sure if you ever took college or research level statistics, but this isn't a statistical tie. The numbers indicate Ford experiences 10% more problems per vehicle than KIA. Just so you know, a statistical tie would be when the difference in actual result is within the margin of error, which is affected by the sample size. Any result that is outside the margin of error is of two results statistically significant, which means it is unlikely to have occurred due to random chance. It may not matter to you, but it does to the warranty guys and it certainly matters to consumers, when they know that they are more likely to encounter an issue in Brand X vs Brand Y. Yes it matters somewhat to the mfrs in terms of warranty costs (depending on the type of problems). But we’re talking about from a buyer’s point of view, On average every buyer regardless of brand would see at least 1 problem. And some would see 2 problems. In both cases that translates to 1 dealer visit to fix 1 or 2 problems (with a small percentage requiring multiple visits). To me that’s meaningless if you’re comparing brands. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 I knew who started this thread without evening looking at sir's name. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 10 hours ago, rperez817 said: Yes sir. Kia and the other 2 brands from Hyundai Motor Group have done consistently well in J.D. Power IQS for the past 5 years. In the 2021 study, Hyundai Motor Group has more models that rank highest in their segment than any other automaker, with 7. Toyota is next best with 5. My fleet manager, who has vehicles from all manufacturers, would suggest this ranking doesn’t mean squat, as his position on long term durability places the Hyundai group at the bottom for vehicle durability compared to the other major manufacturers. His take is only one sample, but our vehicles get worked over pretty good, and he would take a Ford product over a Hyundai product any day, as an unbiased purchaser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 1, 2021 Author Share Posted September 1, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, coupe3w said: I was making a joke. Sorry it went over your head. While you succeeded in making things go over Kev-Mo's head, it wasn't because your statement "Kia kicking Ford's bottom" is a joke. Edited September 1, 2021 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 1, 2021 Author Share Posted September 1, 2021 8 hours ago, tbone said: My fleet manager, who has vehicles from all manufacturers, would suggest this ranking doesn’t mean squat, as his position on long term durability places the Hyundai group at the bottom for vehicle durability compared to the other major manufacturers. His take is only one sample, but our vehicles get worked over pretty good, and he would take a Ford product over a Hyundai product any day, as an unbiased purchaser. J.D. Power's VDS focuses more on long term durability whereas IQS is focused on new cars in their first 90 days of ownership. The 2021 VDS evaluated model year 2018 vehicles after 3 years of ownership. All 3 Hyundai Motor Group brands rank above average, with Kia best among mass market brands. 2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) | J.D. Power (jdpower.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev-Mo Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 8 hours ago, rperez817 said: While you succeeded in making things go over Kev-Mo's head, it wasn't because your statement "Kia kicking Ford's bottom" is a joke. Yes, truly you... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 22 hours ago, tbone said: My fleet manager, who has vehicles from all manufacturers, would suggest this ranking doesn’t mean squat, as his position on long term durability places the Hyundai group at the bottom for vehicle durability compared to the other major manufacturers. His take is only one sample, but our vehicles get worked over pretty good, and he would take a Ford product over a Hyundai product any day, as an unbiased purchaser. 14 hours ago, rperez817 said: J.D. Power's VDS focuses more on long term durability whereas IQS is focused on new cars in their first 90 days of ownership. The 2021 VDS evaluated model year 2018 vehicles after 3 years of ownership. All 3 Hyundai Motor Group brands rank above average, with Kia best among mass market brands. 2021 U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) | J.D. Power (jdpower.com) My point was that studies don’t always reflect real world. My fleet manager controls about 600 cars and has access to analytical data as part of a broader 600k vehicle auto fleet. Of corse this is his observation, but it was an unbiased observation based on information he has learned over time. He has observed that a lot of Hyundai’s components aren’t as robust as other manufacturers. He was not aware of my bias for Ford when he provided that information to me, so had no reason to state otherwise. I have given Hyundai credit for their major strides in the design department and clearly they have improved their quality from the days past, but I take studies with a grain of salt and use them as a data point in my analysis of a given topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 9 hours ago, tbone said: My point was that studies don’t always reflect real world. My fleet manager controls about 600 cars and has access to analytical data as part of a broader 600k vehicle auto fleet. Of corse this is his observation, but it was an unbiased observation based on information he has learned over time. He has observed that a lot of Hyundai’s components aren’t as robust as other manufacturers. He was not aware of my bias for Ford when he provided that information to me, so had no reason to state otherwise. I have given Hyundai credit for their major strides in the design department and clearly they have improved their quality from the days past, but I take studies with a grain of salt and use them as a data point in my analysis of a given topic. Context is important. Even within a statistic like problems per 100 vehicles the actual results could be vastly different. 100 problems per 100 vehicles could be 1 small problem on every vehicle or it could be zero problems on 75 vehicles and 4 problems on 25 vehicles. One mfr could have nothing but trim and panel fitment issues while another has engine and tranny problems. The question that should be asked about reliability data is should one brand or model be avoided or preferred over another and when the results are as close as they are today in both the IQS and long term dependability survey there really isn’t a clear answer like there was a few decades ago. Quality has improved so much that it really comes down to individual models and specific known issues and how you’re using it. If I’m leasing then problems are just an inconvenience. If I’m keeping it for 10 years then powertrain problems are a much bigger concern. Take the data thats available, decide what’s important to you and make your own decision. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 Replies are interesting. If Ford was at the top of the chart it would be " gloat city". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 3, 2021 Share Posted September 3, 2021 1 hour ago, CKNSLS said: Replies are interesting. If Ford was at the top of the chart it would be " gloat city". No it wouldn’t. Nobody gloats about Ford doing well in these surveys or magazine reviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 3, 2021 Author Share Posted September 3, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, akirby said: Nobody gloats about Ford doing well in these surveys or magazine reviews. The 2019 J.D. Power IQS results, in which Ford and Lincoln were both above average and among the Top 5 brands, made the Super News Ticker on this site. Edited September 3, 2021 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 3, 2021 Share Posted September 3, 2021 31 minutes ago, rperez817 said: The 2019 J.D. Power IQS results, in which Ford and Lincoln were both above average and among the Top 5 brands, made the Super News Ticker on this site. And the only person who gloated about that was you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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