j2sys Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 Interesting that this is the second recall this year where the claim is, well, there's the slightest chance of a fire if XYZ happens, so we're going to produce software and/or hardware "hacks" to address the problem if the defect occurs, so as to prevent it from leading to a fire. See also: 2020-2022 C2 FHEV fire risk mediation via cutting additional holes in the aero shield under the engine, as well as removing 4 AGS vanes. They're so far only preventing a defect from leading to a fire, except in the rare case they have evidence of a manufacturing defect (e.g. <200 Escape Hybrids with potentially improperly machined crankshafts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarheels23 Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 46 minutes ago, j2sys said: Interesting that this is the second recall this year where the claim is, well, there's the slightest chance of a fire if XYZ happens, so we're going to produce software and/or hardware "hacks" to address the problem if the defect occurs, so as to prevent it from leading to a fire. See also: 2020-2022 C2 FHEV fire risk mediation via cutting additional holes in the aero shield under the engine, as well as removing 4 AGS vanes. They're so far only preventing a defect from leading to a fire, except in the rare case they have evidence of a manufacturing defect (e.g. <200 Escape Hybrids with potentially improperly machined crankshafts). Dr. W. Edwards Deming walked thru a plant and noticed a sign that said 'danger leaks' and asked why not just fix the leaks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 1 hour ago, tarheels23 said: Dr. W. Edwards Deming walked thru a plant and noticed a sign that said 'danger leaks' and asked why not just fix the leaks? It’s not logistically feasible to replace over 2M injectors in any reasonable timeframe. If there is no fire it’s just an inconvenience. It’s a reasonable response. The real problem is all of the issues with the ecoboost engines. Are the nano 2.7 and 3.0 the only ones without major issues? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, akirby said: It’s not logistically feasible to replace over 2M injectors in any reasonable timeframe. If there is no fire it’s just an inconvenience. It’s a reasonable response. The real problem is all of the issues with the ecoboost engines. Are the nano 2.7 and 3.0 the only ones without major issues? No, it's greed plain and simple. Or as they teach you in business school it's risk vs reward. In other words we would rather pay off a grieving family for the loss of a loved one then spend the money to fix the problem correctly so we can line our pockets with more profits. Isn't that right akirby? Edited November 26, 2022 by coupe3w 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodrigo Posted November 26, 2022 Share Posted November 26, 2022 2 hours ago, akirby said: No es logísticamente factible reemplazar más de 2 millones de inyectores en un plazo razonable. Si no hay fuego es solo un inconveniente. Es una respuesta razonable. El verdadero problema son todos los problemas con los motores ecoboost. ¿Son los nano 2.7 y 3.0 los únicos sin mayores problemas? I agree with your opinion, i have a Focus and Ecosport with the 2.0L duratec engine and i won´t change them for any ecoboost. it´s a shame they don´t finish solving the problems. the ecoboost engines and powershift boxes were the bad things left by the Mulally era. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Rodrigo said: I agree with your opinion, i have a Focus and Ecosport with the 2.0L duratec engine and i won´t change them for any ecoboost. it´s a shame they don´t finish solving the problems. the ecoboost engines and powershift boxes were the bad things left by the Mulally era. Well power shift is no longer a think in new ford's, and Ecoboost engines as a whole are very reliable. Easily some of the most durable turbocharged engines on sale. There are some defects here and there, but that happens with most engines. I mean, look at Toyota right now. The new Tundra is a disaster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 4 hours ago, akirby said: It’s not logistically feasible to replace over 2M injectors in any reasonable timeframe. If there is no fire it’s just an inconvenience. It’s a reasonable response. The real problem is all of the issues with the ecoboost engines. Are the nano 2.7 and 3.0 the only ones without major issues? The 2.3 is apparently pretty rock solid, as are newer versions of the 3.5 supposedly. I've heard the coolant issues with the 2.0 were mostly due to flaws with the original design which have since been rectified , but I can't confirm this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 3 hours ago, coupe3w said: No, it's greed plain and simple. Or as they teach you in business school it's risk vs reward. In other words we would rather pay off a grieving family for the loss of a loved one then spend the money to fix the problem correctly so we can line our pockets with more profits. Isn't that right akirby? If they weren’t making changes to PREVENT the damn fires from happening you might have a point. But you don’t. Is cost a factor? Cost is always a factor in every business decision but paying to replace and throw away 2M perfectly good fuel injectors because a few hundred might crack is just stupid - IF fire can be prevented. Keep your socialistic hatred of Ford to yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 44 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said: The 2.3 is apparently pretty rock solid, as are newer versions of the 3.5 supposedly. Nope. Focus RS had a big issue with the heads, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 1 hour ago, akirby said: Nope. Focus RS had a big issue with the heads, In fairness, that was due to the RS specific head gasket being so similar to the standard one the wrong one was being installed at the engine plant and not some massive defect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 13 hours ago, akirby said: If they weren’t making changes to PREVENT the damn fires from happening you might have a point. But you don’t. Is cost a factor? Cost is always a factor in every business decision but paying to replace and throw away 2M perfectly good fuel injectors because a few hundred might crack is just stupid - IF fire can be prevented. Keep your socialistic hatred of Ford to yourself. Wouldn't Ford recoup the money back from the vendor for the defective injectors anyway? First off I have no hatred of Ford Motor Company. I have owned nothing but Fords since I was old enough to drive. I have bought, built, and worked on more Fords then you ever will. Three sit in my garage as we speek. But I will speak my mind when I think Ford is doing the wrong thing on quality. I'm not going to praise a company that knows it has quality problems and doing the same old bad habits to try and fix them. JMO 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 2 hours ago, coupe3w said: But I will speak my mind when I think Ford is doing the wrong thing on quality. I'm not going to praise a company that knows it has quality problems and doing the same old bad habits to try and fix them. JMO Thank you coupe3w. Keep speaking your mind on this thread and others. That's what this thread is about. Ford's quality czar "says issues should subside in 2023", but customers, employees, and suppliers should be very doubtful. Ford has never had a culture of quality in its entire history. Sure, it developed or played a lead role on methodologies like 8 disciplines, APQP, PPAP, etc. But quality initiatives at Ford have been like new diets. At no point has quality been "the fabric of the organization" rather than just "part of the fabric" as quality guru Philip Crosby put it. Until Ford's culture changes, the quality issues that have bedeviled the company for such a long time will remain. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 15 hours ago, DeluxeStang said: I mean, look at Toyota right now. The new Tundra is a disaster. New Tundra is indeed a disaster from a quality perspective, Consumer Reports latest data indicates that its predicted reliability is below average, a huge drop from the better than average rating for the previous gen Tundra. However, among models with sufficient data, it's the only Toyota model that ranks so low. All other Toyota vehicles in the CR reliability survey are average or better than average. Overall, Toyota improved its ranking in that survey from last year, it's up 2 spots to the #1 spot. By contrast, Ford dropped 4 spots to rank #18 out of 25 brands. 3 of the 5 least reliable vehicles in the survey are Ford or Lincoln products. Lincoln as a brand overall did improve however, due to better than average ratings for Corsair and Nautilus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 36 minutes ago, rperez817 said: Thank you coupe3w. Keep speaking your mind on this thread and others. That's what this thread is about. Ford's quality czar "says issues should subside in 2023", but customers, employees, and suppliers should be very doubtful. Ford has never had a culture of quality in its entire history. Sure, it developed or played a lead role on methodologies like 8 disciplines, APQP, PPAP, etc. But quality initiatives at Ford have been like new diets. At no point has quality been "the fabric of the organization" rather than just "part of the fabric" as quality guru Philip Crosby put it. Until Ford's culture changes, the quality issues that have bedeviled the company for such a long time will remain. Hopefully I can speak my mind freely here, but I don't want to piss off the moderators and get kicked off for doing so. I am not a sheeple. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 4 hours ago, coupe3w said: doing the same old bad habits to try and fix them. JMO This is what I have a problem with. You’re suggesting this isn’t a valid solution and instead want Ford to replace 2.4M perfectly fine injectors, A. You can’t physically manufacture and replace 2.4M injectors overnight - it would take a year or two at least. Remember the air bags? B. The fix will identify the leak based on fuel pressure and with the drain should eliminate fires. The system detects the leak and the bad injector is replaced under warranty. Rant all you want about Ford having so many issues. But saying this isn’t a good solution is ignoring facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 Owning the engine in question, I'm absolutely okay with the solution Ford came up with. My fuel injectors are okay, and to change them "just because" is foolish. If the injectors were to somehow spontaneously crack (not even sure how that is possible) the software will warn me of a fuel pressure drop and advise me to get service. I did notice that Ford is now extending the warranty on these fuel injectors to 15 years. I was going to contact my dealer tomorrow, but will put that off until I get the recall notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe3w Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 29 minutes ago, mackinaw said: Owning the engine in question, I'm absolutely okay with the solution Ford came up with. My fuel injectors are okay, and to change them "just because" is foolish. If the injectors were to somehow spontaneously crack (not even sure how that is possible) the software will warn me of a fuel pressure drop and advise me to get service. I did notice that Ford is now extending the warranty on these fuel injectors to 15 years. I was going to contact my dealer tomorrow, but will put that off until I get the recall notice. They don't have the parts to add the fix yet anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 30 minutes ago, coupe3w said: They don't have the parts to add the fix yet anyway. That may be but sometimes dealers keep tabs on people who respond to recall notices to make them aware of when parts are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 1 hour ago, coupe3w said: They don't have the parts to add the fix yet anyway. Correct so they must implement immediate control measures or people stop driving their vehicles. Diverting leaked fuel is terrible choice but getting it away from hot areas is an absolute priority. Perhaps they need time to identify which batches of the 2.4 million should be prioritised for replacement… Yes it’s bad that Ford allowed such a massive lapse in quality to exist in the first place, the question now is how can that be controlled and corrected without putting owners in harms way…. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2sys Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 4 hours ago, akirby said: This is what I have a problem with. You’re suggesting this isn’t a valid solution and instead want Ford to replace 2.4M perfectly fine injectors, A. You can’t physically manufacture and replace 2.4M injectors overnight - it would take a year or two at least. Remember the air bags? B. The fix will identify the leak based on fuel pressure and with the drain should eliminate fires. The system detects the leak and the bad injector is replaced under warranty. Rant all you want about Ford having so many issues. But saying this isn’t a good solution is ignoring facts. Is there an extended warranty aspect to the recall? If not, while it might prevent a fire, this recall doesn’t fully resolve a known defect if the cracks are something that may not develop right away or within 5 years, 60,000 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeluxeStang Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 23 hours ago, akirby said: Nope. Focus RS had a big issue with the heads, But they were caught and addressed early on. From my understanding, these issues only happened because they were putting normal 2.3 heads on high output 2.3s. Since then, it seems pretty reliable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 58 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said: But they were caught and addressed early on. From my understanding, these issues only happened because they were putting normal 2.3 heads on high output 2.3s. Since then, it seems pretty reliable. Ok I thought it was a bad head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 2 hours ago, j2sys said: Is there an extended warranty aspect to the recall? If not, while it might prevent a fire, this recall doesn’t fully resolve a known defect if the cracks are something that may not develop right away or within 5 years, 60,000 miles. Sounds like there was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 32 minutes ago, akirby said: Ok I thought it was a bad head. No, it was the wrong gasket. There was literally 1 hole that was the difference the normal 2.3 gasket didn’t have that is critical for the RS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 2 hours ago, j2sys said: Is there an extended warranty aspect to the recall? If not, while it might prevent a fire, this recall doesn’t fully resolve a known defect if the cracks are something that may not develop right away or within 5 years, 60,000 miles. 15 years on the injectors. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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