Ford and Red Bull Already Developing "Strategically Important" EV Together

[Harley Lover]

The article title is somewhat clickbaity, but there is some substance there: 

Quote

Responding to a question about Ford's interest in Formula 1 stemming in part from the series' new engine regulations, CEO Jim Farley offered a tantalizing tease of where that relationship will pay off, namely with a new strategic EV: "I was in a recent review with probably our most strategically important EV, and I turned to my skunkworks team that are developing this in secret, and I asked, 'Hey, who's doing the aero on this?' And he turns to me and says, 'Oh, they're from Red Bull. Formula One. '" Before today, it wasn't publicly known that Ford was working with Red Bull Racing on a new EV. 

 

Of course, Ford has had a working relationship with Red Bull for decades, so it's also not a big surprise. Ford sold its Jaguar F1 team to Red Bull Racing in 2004, when the American automaker initially departed the sport, and the two companies have since partnered for rallycross racing and other motorsports to great success in recent years.

 

So: "our most strategically important EV" and "skunkworks team developing this in secret"? What could that be? Would it be a halo vehicle? Or a permutation of the F150? 

What does everyone think?

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Harley Lover
https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-red-bull-developing-strategically-important-ev/?wc_mid=4035:24241&wc_rid=4035:413251&_wcsid=1486EDC6A8D2FBA02E39377C1D9156F2E990B0A99697B57D

[DeluxeStang]

Yeah I noticed this as well. Highly doubt it's a new lighting, he said it was still a secretive project, whereas the next gen lighting has been openly discussed by him many times.

 

Thinking it's a new gt or mid-engine mustang. Areo is important on everything, but if you're having people with experience at red bull developing the areo, it makes sense that it would be a very high performance halo model. 

 

A halo model that brought a lot of attention to the brand's evs while enabling ford to utilize extreme tech and areo would be an excellent test bed for future evs. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

A halo model that brought a lot of attention to the brand's evs while enabling ford to utilize extreme tech and areo would be an excellent test bed for future evs. 

I don’t see a halo model being “strategically important” but maybe that’s just me.

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, Harley Lover said:

The article title is somewhat clickbaity, but there is some substance there: 

 

So: "our most strategically important EV" and "skunkworks team developing this in secret"? What could that be? Would it be a halo vehicle? Or a permutation of the F150? 

What does everyone think?

 

 

I think he may be connecting a.highly-aerodynamic vehicle design with previous comments about future EVs with smaller batteries.  To lower costs, aerodynamics are crucial for a given desired range.  It’s purely a guess on my part, but I don’t see it as either an F150 or a halo vehicle.  A strategically important vehicle may be nothing more than an affordable compact BEV with reasonable range that can beat the competition.  Cars like Mach-E and Teslas are not affordable to most buyers in my opinion.  Ford needs an electric people’s car.

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Cars like Mach-E and Teslas are not affordable to most buyers in my opinion.  Ford needs an electric people’s car.

 

The issue is that battery production needs to ramp up more to make them more affordable...in the next 5-10 years that shouldn't be an issue. 

The cars themselves aren't expensive, it is the batteries. 

[Harley Lover]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

I think he may be connecting a.highly-aerodynamic vehicle design with previous comments about future EVs with smaller batteries.  To lower costs, aerodynamics are crucial for a given desired range.  It’s purely a guess on my part, but I don’t see it as either an F150 or a halo vehicle.  A strategically important vehicle may be nothing more than an affordable compact BEV with reasonable range that can beat the competition.  Cars like Mach-E and Teslas are not affordable to most buyers in my opinion.  Ford needs an electric people’s car.

 

He didn't say "strategically important vehicle", he said "our most strategically important vehicle". The more I think about it, it almost has to be truck related, as in F150. The F150 is "the Franchise", the profit generator that drives the company. That, to me, is the definition of "most strategically important vehicle". If they don't protect the franchise, everything else is a moot point.

I've read another interview with him recently in which he spoke of the Lightning and said it was too bad it was so close to the current F150 style-wise (and contrasting that look with what will come from Blue Oval City truck-wise). My guess in the quote above he's speaking about whatever will come out of BOC, which he's already said publicly will be different from the current F150 style-wise.

[DeluxeStang]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

I don’t see a halo model being “strategically important” but maybe that’s just me.

Not in terms of sales volume, but it terms of brand perception, and reputation, the halo models are often the most important. 

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, Harley Lover said:

 

He didn't say "strategically important vehicle", he said "our most strategically important vehicle". The more I think about it, it almost has to be truck related, as in F150. The F150 is "the Franchise", the profit generator that drives the company. That, to me, is the definition of "most strategically important vehicle". If they don't protect the franchise, everything else is a moot point.

I've read another interview with him recently in which he spoke of the Lightning and said it was too bad it was so close to the current F150 style-wise (and contrasting that look with what will come from Blue Oval City truck-wise). My guess in the quote above he's speaking about whatever will come out of BOC, which he's already said publicly will be different from the current F150 style-wise.

But he's talked about the next gen lightning over and over. It's not a secretive project. 

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The issue is that battery production needs to ramp up more to make them more affordable...in the next 5-10 years that shouldn't be an issue. 

The cars themselves aren't expensive, it is the batteries. 

The more reason a car that can operate fully with smaller battery is needed today, not in 5 or 10 years.  To me that likely means smaller, lighter, and more aero.

[Trader 10]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The issue is that battery production needs to ramp up more to make them more affordable...in the next 5-10 years that shouldn't be an issue. 

The cars themselves aren't expensive, it is the batteries. 

I think you’re right- the batteries are the issue. EVs are so much more expensive than ICE, I don’t think increased battery production will be enough to make them competitive. EVs are pigs. I don’t know how they become competitive until battery weight comes way down and that seems unlikely the next ten years. 

[akirby]

3 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Not in terms of sales volume, but it terms of brand perception, and reputation, the halo models are often the most important. 

I disagree.  Halos are great for fans and they impress reviewers but they don’t sell vehicles.  Do you think having a Ford GT made a difference in sales or profits on F150, Explorer or Bronco?

[tbone]

7 hours ago, Rick73 said:

I think he may be connecting a.highly-aerodynamic vehicle design with previous comments about future EVs with smaller batteries.  To lower costs, aerodynamics are crucial for a given desired range.  It’s purely a guess on my part, but I don’t see it as either an F150 or a halo vehicle.  A strategically important vehicle may be nothing more than an affordable compact BEV with reasonable range that can beat the competition.  Cars like Mach-E and Teslas are not affordable to most buyers in my opinion.  Ford needs an electric people’s car.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but the F150 is becoming increasingly less affordable for people as well.  

Ford F-150 Pricing

For reference, here are the Ford F-150 trim levels and their corresponding MSRPs, including the destination charge and acquisition fee (when applicable):

2022 Ford F-150

• XL – $31,520
• XLT – $39,165
• Lariat – $49,100
• King Ranch – $60,320
• Platinum – $63,100
• Limited – $77,625

2023 Ford F-150

• XL – $35,590
• XLT – $42,695
• Lariat – $60,020
• King Ranch – $65,545
• Platinum – $67,235
• Limited – $87,450

I would say the XLT and Lariat are the main vehicles the general public typically buy.  While the XLT price hike between model years isn’t as bad, the Lariat price is substantial.  Add 4x4 and all the options to a Lariat and you can exceed $80k.  A nicely equipped XLT can run over $64k plus.  Im beginning to think these pricing levels are becoming unsustainable.  Even the XLs are over $50k if you add any significant options to them.  

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I disagree.  Halos are great for fans and they impress reviewers but they don’t sell vehicles.  Do you think having a Ford GT made a difference in sales or profits on F150, Explorer or Bronco?

Absolutely, for the performance trims of those vehicles at least. Credibility and reputation is extremely important in the car world. The gt and mustang gives ford a great deal of credibility when it comes to their other performance models.

 

Farley has stated many times that he wants ford to become a more emotional, likely more performance oriented brand that's less vanilla. Having a kickass halo car with design cues and tech that could trickle through the rest of the lineup would help with that. 

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I disagree.  Halos are great for fans and they impress reviewers but they don’t sell vehicles.  Do you think having a Ford GT made a difference in sales or profits on F150, Explorer or Bronco?

The issue is it doesn't sound like the next gen f-150, Ford wouldn't have a small skunkworks team developing that. You'd want as many hands on deck as possible for a project that important. It's not a super duty, Farley said there's no plans to make an all electric super duty. It's probably not a Maverick or ranger. I can't see it being a new truck model alongside all of those, that would be insane to have that many truck models. 

 

The EV explorer is going to be important, but that has to be well past the design development phase. Can't see this being some sort of midsize crossover. It doesn't seem likely that it's a Lincoln either. 

 

It just seems like if you had someone as special as an ex-red bull employee developing your areo, it would be for something where experience working with high performance areo targets was important. I could be wrong, time will tell. 

 

But with Farley stated that they had surprises and aces up their sleeves pertaining to future performance cars, I have to believe that something is in the works. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by DeluxeStang

[silvrsvt]

12 hours ago, Rick73 said:

The more reason a car that can operate fully with smaller battery is needed today, not in 5 or 10 years.  To me that likely means smaller, lighter, and more aero.

 

Your not going to see a significant drop in pricing with BEVs till after 2025 or so.

 

In the North American market, anything smaller than Escape or midsized car is a non starter. 

 

Do keep in mind the average cost of a new vehicle these days is something like $46K

[fuzzymoomoo]

28 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

Your not going to see a significant drop in pricing with BEVs till after 2025 or so.

I honestly doubt it will be that soon 

[silvrsvt]

26 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I honestly doubt it will be that soon 

 

Well with the ramp up of battery plants over the next few years in the US, that should drop prices to a point. 

[akirby]

7 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Absolutely, for the performance trims of those vehicles at least. Credibility and reputation is extremely important in the car world. The gt and mustang gives ford a great deal of credibility when it comes to their other performance models.

 

Farley has stated many times that he wants ford to become a more emotional, likely more performance oriented brand that's less vanilla. Having a kickass halo car with design cues and tech that could trickle through the rest of the lineup would help with that. 

Sorry I’m just not buying it.  Like I said there are reasons to do halos and benefits but I just don’t think it translates to sales any more than normal advertising.  

[akirby]

Reading the tea leaves I would have to think it’s a BEV Maverick type utility vehicle that they can sell at volume with good profit with a reduced range battery pack and sub $30k price (before subsidies).

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Your not going to see a significant drop in pricing with BEVs till after 2025 or so.

 

In the North American market, anything smaller than Escape or midsized car is a non starter. 

 

Do keep in mind the average cost of a new vehicle these days is something like $46K

Americans can adapt when conditions require it, so who’s to say market demand won’t change, at least temporarily?  After the oil crisis in 70s buyers suddenly embraced tiny cars like Civics and Corollas.  Longer-term buyers preferred inefficient SUVs, after gas got cheaper, but it shows change can happen quickly when needed.

 

You are correct on average costs being high, but lower-cost ICE and hybrid options still exist that are in line with historical trends.  As example, I purchased a basic 1994 Ranger XLT for $9,995 when median family income was mid $30s.  In 2021 US median family income was $70,784, and a basic Maverick list for about same 1/3 of annual income.  Having said that, many Mach-E in my area are in $60s and $70s, making them out of reach for a large percentage of population.

 

I personally believe replicating Tesla’s success with BEVs for the masses is not going to work.  Larger BEVs with long driving range will remain too expensive for many years, limiting them to luxury market.  Affordability will likely require creating demand for different types of vehicles than what we are comparing to here.

 

For what it’s worth, there are reports VW is planning to build a new smaller BEV in North America below the ID.4 in size.  I expect it will rely on smaller battery best suited for city driving, and should have a corresponding lower price.  Hopefully we will see more new cars in the 40~50 kWh range than 200 kWh monstrosities like Hummers.

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Well with the ramp up of battery plants over the next few years in the US, that should drop prices to a point. 

The first one is slated to open sometime next year if I’m not mistaken. I’m skeptical production can ramp up fast enough to really have any effect on prices within a year, especially if commodity prices keep rising the way they are. 

[rmc523]

22 hours ago, akirby said:

I don’t see a halo model being “strategically important” but maybe that’s just me.

 

I agree, but also don't see something like F-150 requiring a secret team, and also don't see aero being a massive focus on that.....obviously it'd be important, but would it require a racing team?

 

I wonder if it - regardless of body type - is related to solid state batteries?

[akirby]

32 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

I agree, but also don't see something like F-150 requiring a secret team, and also don't see aero being a massive focus on that.....obviously it'd be important, but would it require a racing team?

 

I wonder if it - regardless of body type - is related to solid state batteries?

I think skunkworks in this context just means a dedicated team working outside the normal process.  Not necessarily “secret”.

[akirby]

Oh wait he did say secret.  Still I think it’s just an accelerated development team.  And I’d still bet on a less expensive Maverick type BEV.

[ANTAUS]

Autoblog.com