EV Problem: Mach-E Piling Up on Dealer Lots

[rperez817]

14 hours ago, Deanh said:

code for " they arent moving like they should "....we need to sweeten the pot....and they ARE extremely expensive...and the more expensive a unit it the smaller the market...volitile market for sure

 

Ford Model e Chief Customer Officer Marin Gjaja was very clear on why Ford increased prices on F-150 Lightning shortly after it was introduced, and also why it is now able to adjust pricing downward.

 

Shortly after launching the F-150 Lightning, rapidly rising material costs, supply constraints and other factors drove up the cost of the EV truck for Ford and our customers. We’ve continued to work in the background to improve accessibility and affordability to help to lower prices for our customers and shorten the wait times for their new F-150 Lightning.

[akirby]

It should be obvious it’s a combination of cost reduction and competitive pressure.

[Joe771476]

Solution? STOP manufacturing EV's!  Waste of resources and bankrupting Ford!

[silvrsvt]

16 minutes ago, Joe771476 said:

Solution? STOP manufacturing EV's!  Waste of resources and bankrupting Ford!

 

The new Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards require an industry-wide fleet average of approximately 49 mpg for passenger cars and light trucks in model year 2026, the strongest cost savings and fuel efficiency standards to date. The new standards will increase fuel efficiency 8% annually for model years 2024-2025 and 10% annually for model year 2026. They will also increase the estimated fleetwide average by nearly 10 miles per gallon for model year 2026, relative to model year 2021.

 

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/usdot-announces-new-vehicle-fuel-economy-standards-model-year-2024-2026

 

Your not going to see ICE engines be able to do that and allow people to buy what they want (larger vehicles/trucks). The numbers for CAFE are artificially inflated due to them using the original calculations from when CAFE went into effect and do not corrolate with window sticker MPG, which is much closer to real world usage. 

[Rick73]

Americans generally prefer larger vehicles, but success and popularity of relatively small Tesla Model 3 and Y suggest we will downsize when warranted or if necessary.  The upcoming smaller Model 2 (by other name) will really test whether we are willing to buy much smaller vehicles.

 

Regarding gasoline powered, 50 MPG is already doable with present-size cars no smaller than popular Corolla and Civic.  And in the past, Americans downsized to even smaller vehicles when necessary.  IMO Americans avoid small cars mostly due to safety, and having 9,000-pound pickups and SUVs sharing the road won’t help most of us feel safer.

[Deanh]

8 hours ago, akirby said:

It should be obvious it’s a combination of cost reduction and competitive pressure.

yep...you should add declining demand.....

[Deanh]

8 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Ford Model e Chief Customer Officer Marin Gjaja was very clear on why Ford increased prices on F-150 Lightning shortly after it was introduced, and also why it is now able to adjust pricing downward.

 

 

 

so material prices like everything else have gone down....nope?...as have commodity issues...nope?....if that was true there would be price reductions across Fords entire lineup right? ...its simple...they arent moving, demand is down, dealers now have units sitting when they didnt before ,theres more competition, and the furors died down...seems to be an awful lot of deflection and denial being posted here...bottom line...THEY ARENT MOVING LIKE THEY WERE and thats most likely because of several parameters....and the go to is either incentives and/ or price reductions , subveened interest rates, history backs that up. SIDEBAR...Transit Connects are UP $10000 from a year ago, a basic XL extended is now 37k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! must be becuase material costs have gone down andd nomore commodity issues. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Deanh

[Deanh]

6 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

 

 

 

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/usdot-announces-new-vehicle-fuel-economy-standards-model-year-2024-2026

 

Your not going to see ICE engines be able to do that and allow people to buy what they want (larger vehicles/trucks). The numbers for CAFE are artificially inflated due to them using the original calculations from when CAFE went into effect and do not corrolate with window sticker MPG, which is much closer to real world usage. 

Im getting 15.7 on the Bronco Raptor, and loving it...LMAO....

Edited July 19, 2023 by Deanh

[Deanh]

part of the issue I think is Ford went all in with the BEVS and bought into all the hoopla, bad move in my opinion, you could basically only get/ order Transits if they had a battery, and that market ( Cargo and passenger vans ) is absolutely flailing because of that virtue signalling knee jerk executive decison...and now the entire BEV business exstravaganza its somewhat backfiring and coming back to reality...I am now wondering how this will influence all the Dealers they have been strongarming to become so called "E" dealers...because the leveraging wont be quite as strong right now and may have to be re-evaluated with more of a common sense approach.....this is a BIG reality check...

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, Deanh said:

part of the issue I think is Ford went all in with the BEVS and bought into all the hoopla, bad move in my opinion, you could basically only get/ order Transits if they had a battery, and that market ( Cargo and passenger vans ) is absolutely flailing because of that virtue signalling knee jerk executive decison...and now the entire BEV business exstravaganza its somewhat backfiring and coming back to reality...I am now wondering how this will influence all the Dealers they have been strongarming to become so called "E" dealers...because the leveraging wont be quite as strong right now and may have to be re-evaluated with more of a common sense approach.....this is a BIG reality check...

 

I think the response to it is a bit knee jerk also...after what has happened over the past few years and the lack of stock and now the normalization to maybe even slow down of the market due to various factors.

 

As for the other efforts, nothing happens overnight or turns on a dime in any industry-I don't see how dealerships could snap their fingers five years from now and be EV ready without baby steps required to be taken now. 

[2005Explorer]

2 hours ago, Deanh said:

so material prices like everything else have gone down....nope?...as have commodity issues...nope?....if that was true there would be price reductions across Fords entire lineup right? ...its simple...they arent moving, demand is down, dealers now have units sitting when they didnt before ,theres more competition, and the furors died down...seems to be an awful lot of deflection and denial being posted here...bottom line...THEY ARENT MOVING LIKE THEY WERE and thats most likely because of several parameters....and the go to is either incentives and/ or price reductions , subveened interest rates, history backs that up. SIDEBAR...Transit Connects are UP $10000 from a year ago, a basic XL extended is now 37k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! must be becuase material costs have gone down andd nomore commodity issues. 

Ford is never going to say they've dropped prices to try and increase demand because that would slap the failed product label on the Lightning.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that once the early adopters are filled up that's when it'll become harder to sell these. I know the plan is to increase production, but is that realistic?

 

The only thing that will speed up adoption of BEVs in the US is the government forcing adoption whether people like it or not. Of course that all depends on what party is running what at the time, but it's going to take an ICE ban. If the market is left free people are going to keep buying gas vehicles.

[GearheadGrrrl]

What Ford needs to do is "hedge their bets" on electrification. Automotive history is chock full of trends that were going to takeover like diesel cars, downsizing, front wheel drive, and now electrification. The wiser companies kept their gas engines around, kept full size rear drive models fresh, and now they're keeping their IC vehicles competitive just in case electrification stalls like all these earlier trends. GM is developing new gas and Diesel engines... Will Ford have anything to compete?

[Rangers09]

11 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

 

 

 

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/usdot-announces-new-vehicle-fuel-economy-standards-model-year-2024-2026

 

Your not going to see ICE engines be able to do that and allow people to buy what they want (larger vehicles/trucks). The numbers for CAFE are artificially inflated due to them using the original calculations from when CAFE went into effect and do not corrolate with window sticker MPG, which is much closer to real world usage. 

 

From our experience, you don't require BEV's to inflate the average mpg. Our PHEV, even with it not being plugged in for more than 50% of the miles driven to date, is achieving 78 mpg. That is also the small US gallon and not the Imperial gallon I use. So from experience, ICE engines coupled with an electric system are more than capable of attaining your Govt's CAFE standards.

 

At least in my market, more buyers are interested in PHEV's than BEV's, at least at present with the current technology. Isn't it better to have a partial electric vehicle on the road, than having pure electric vehicles sitting on dealer lots. Are unsold BEV's sitting on dealer lots used when determining a manufacturer's overall mpg?

[akirby]

21 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

. Will Ford have anything to compete?

They have all the platforms and IC powertrains they need including HEV and PHEV.  All they need to do is tweak them occasionally.  

[akirby]

8 minutes ago, Rangers09 said:

 

From our experience, you don't require BEV's to inflate the average mpg. Our PHEV, even with it not being plugged in for more than 50% of the miles driven to date, is achieving 78 mpg. That is also the small US gallon and not the Imperial gallon I use. So from experience, ICE engines coupled with an electric system are more than capable of attaining your Govt's CAFE standards.

 

At least in my market, more buyers are interested in PHEV's than BEV's, at least at present with the current technology. Isn't it better to have a partial electric vehicle on the road, than having pure electric vehicles sitting on dealer lots. Are unsold BEV's sitting on dealer lots used when determining a manufacturer's overall mpg?

This is the exact case for PHEVs IF you have the right circumstances.  This won’t work for everybody but for someone who can’t or won’t do a BEV it’s potentially a great solution.

 

And don’t say but it will delay BEV adoption.  It may to a small extent but the alternative for these types of drivers is to keep a non hybrid ICE vehicle not go BEV.  So if you’re actually concerned about emissions and not govt regulations it makes sense as an intermediate step.

[Rangers09]

7 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Americans generally prefer larger vehicles, but success and popularity of relatively small Tesla Model 3 and Y suggest we will downsize when warranted or if necessary.  The upcoming smaller Model 2 (by other name) will really test whether we are willing to buy much smaller vehicles.

 

Regarding gasoline powered, 50 MPG is already doable with present-size cars no smaller than popular Corolla and Civic.  And in the past, Americans downsized to even smaller vehicles when necessary.  IMO Americans avoid small cars mostly due to safety, and having 9,000-pound pickups and SUVs sharing the road won’t help most of us feel safer.

 

Back in the 90's, I got 70 mpg from my 1992 Festiva and even my 2013 F-350 SRW got 30 mpg on the motorway. So totally agree that 50 mpg is easily attainable.

[slemke]

18 minutes ago, akirby said:

They have all the platforms and IC powertrains they need including HEV and PHEV.  All they need to do is tweak them occasionally.  

That’s the thing, they need to keep them fresh or they will loose any competitive edge and it will be like the late ‘90s early 2000’s with falling sales and profits.  GM is spending money to revamp their V8 truck engines.  Stellantis is continuing to roll out the hurricane I6.  The list goes on.  Ford needs to keep pace.  We will see this fall what Ford does with the updated F150.

[Rangers09]

5 minutes ago, akirby said:

This is the exact case for PHEVs IF you have the right circumstances.  This won’t work for everybody but for someone who can’t or won’t do a BEV it’s potentially a great solution.

 

And don’t say but it will delay BEV adoption.  It may to a small extent but the alternative for these types of drivers is to keep a non hybrid ICE vehicle not go BEV.  So if you’re actually concerned about emissions and not govt regulations it makes sense as an intermediate step.

 

A needs analysis is what we conduct for every major purchase and BEV's didn't come close to meeting our needs for a 16,500 lb 5th wheel hauler, or a town runabout/road trip car. Will BEV meet our needs in the future - possibly, but not at the present time. I guess we are one of the cases where a PHEV is the right circumstance. If a BEV met our needs today, we would have bought one, since our Govt would have given us another $2,500.

 

Personally, I couldn't care less what the Govt wants me to purchase and don't consider what might be available in 3, 5 or 7 yrs from now. I purchased based on what is available now.

 

For my F-450 last year, no alternative PHEV, Hybrid or BEV was available and I doubt I will see one in my lifetime, so a new F-350 DRW was our minimum requirement, but opted to upgrade to the F-450 KRU. This year, for DW's car, the BEV's don't meet our needs, but the hydrid & PHEV would work. Govt rebates on the PHEV sealed the business case for a PHEV. So using our needs as the primary objective, we are also addressing the emissions issue.

[Rick73]

13 minutes ago, Rangers09 said:

 

Back in the 90's, I got 70 mpg from my 1992 Festiva and even my 2013 F-350 SRW got 30 mpg on the motorway. So totally agree that 50 mpg is easily attainable.

Downsizing is extremely efficient if only we could get Americans to buy smaller vehicles again.  Americans drove smaller cars the size of European vehicles when gas was costly and or hard to get, and I think would do it again if a good case is made for them, provided they are safe. Present-day Euro-size hybrids can easily exceed 50 MPG, and even more is possible.

 

 

[rperez817]

3 hours ago, 2005Explorer said:

I know the plan is to increase production, but is that realistic?

 

Not only realistic, but necessary for Ford's future survival. Hopefully Ford is able to achieve its 600,000 BEV per year run rate goal by the end of 2023 now that production of Mustang Mach-E, F-150 Lightning, and E-Transit have all been ramped up dramatically and SOP for the MEB based BEV Explorer for Europe (the "new Mid-size SUV" mentioned in the picture below) is expected soon.

 

 

 

[akirby]

9 hours ago, slemke said:

That’s the thing, they need to keep them fresh or they will loose any competitive edge and it will be like the late ‘90s early 2000’s with falling sales and profits.  GM is spending money to revamp their V8 truck engines.  Stellantis is continuing to roll out the hurricane I6.  The list goes on.  Ford needs to keep pace.  We will see this fall what Ford does with the updated F150.

That’s easy to say, but what exactly does Ford need to “revamp” on the Coyote 5.0L?  It seems to be maxed out on technology and power.  It can easily be tweaked here and there and stay perfectly competitive without spending huge bucks and resources.  Remember they just came out with a HO diesel engine for Super Duty.

 

And the only reason for an I6 is if it gives them huge dividends in lower production costs.  From a market perspective it’s just not needed.

 

Not saying they don’t need to make improvements here and there but they don’t really need brand new engines or transmissions.

[2005Explorer]

9 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

Not only realistic, but necessary for Ford's future survival. Hopefully Ford is able to achieve its 600,000 BEV per year run rate goal by the end of 2023 now that production of Mustang Mach-E, F-150 Lightning, and E-Transit have all been ramped up dramatically and SOP for the MEB based BEV Explorer for Europe (the "new Mid-size SUV" mentioned in the picture below) is expected soon.

 

 

 

That's all great, but you have to be able to sell all of them and preferably at full MSRP without any discounts. Everyone else including media sources claim that EVs are hitting a tough spot in sales right now (especially Ford models) and you're claiming they are selling so hot they can't even keep them on dealer's lots and people are paying full price for every one because of high demand. So what's the truth?

 

This is the old "build them and they will come" idea, but we'll see how it goes longer term. I still think adoption is going to be MUCH slower then the government or industry is planning for right now. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by 2005Explorer

[rperez817]

15 minutes ago, 2005Explorer said:

Everyone else including media sources claim that EVs are hitting a tough spot in sales right now (especially Ford models) and you're claiming they are selling so hot they can't even keep them on dealer's lots and people are paying full price for every one because of high demand. So what's the truth? 

 

For Ford BEV, a combination of both. The tough spot Ford hit is due to the following.

1. Demand for Ford BEV overall far exceeding Ford's ability to produce them
2. For Mustang Mach-E, wrong product mix (as others have mentioned earlier in this thread topic). Too many units produced with 72 kWh battery, too few with 91 kWh battery.
3. Extremely long order to delivery times causing frustration for customers and dealers
4. Customers placing multiple reservations or orders including with Ford's competitors, accepting the BEV that's built earliest, and cancelling the rest
5. Numerous supply chain issues, as mentioned in Ford's press releases

Things should improve based on the actions Ford has taken recently to ramp up production and adjust pricing.

[Rangers09]

12 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Downsizing is extremely efficient if only we could get Americans to buy smaller vehicles again.  Americans drove smaller cars the size of European vehicles when gas was costly and or hard to get, and I think would do it again if a good case is made for them, provided they are safe. Present-day Euro-size hybrids can easily exceed 50 MPG, and even more is possible.

 

 

 

So true. Since I was brought up with British cars, the Festiva was an easy decision for a car that was purchased for to/from work. I enjoy driving my F-450, but it really isn't practical as a daily driver around town. The much smaller Escape is possibly not as comfortable, but isn't bad.

 

Since we rarely have more than 1 or 2 pax in the Escape, an Explorer/Expedition would be nice, but that size doesn't meet our needs. Even when we have more than 2 pax in the Escape, the others are grandkids and they are comfortable in the back.

 

It would be interesting to see how many people actually thoroughly consider their needs before purchasing a vehicle. I just shake my head when I see 2 F-150 size pick-ups in a driveway that aren't work trucks. I'll suggest few families needs require 2 pick-ups.

[rmc523]

Or.....people buy what they want, and who cares what they "need".......