Rumor Flat Rock Closing by the End of the Decade

[gabby.m]

Heard a rumor that Flat Rock is closing by the end of the decade and the Mustang EV coupe will be produced either in Mexico alongside the Match E. or at the Louisville plant where the Escape and Corsair are currently produced.

It should be noted its not confirmed or guaranteed to happen its just a rumor and may change.

[DeluxeStang]

I'm not really in the know on these things. But why do I see quite a few people implying that flat rock may close down? Is the plant just severely outdated and not worth updating? Is it the fact that it only produces one product? Perhaps a combination of factors. 

[akirby]

22 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

I'm not really in the know on these things. But why do I see quite a few people implying that flat rock may close down? Is the plant just severely outdated and not worth updating? Is it the fact that it only produces one product? Perhaps a combination of factors. 

Can’t build anything taller than a sedan and it’s outdated and only builds mustangs.  I expect it to become an EV plant.  Move Mustang to CAP or some other plant.

[DeluxeStang]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

Can’t build anything taller than a sedan and it’s outdated and only builds mustangs.  I expect it to become an EV plant.  Move Mustang to CAP or some other plant.

So basically, unless the market pivots back to sedans, flat rock is kinda screwed? We've discused the potential for a N. American sedan quite a few times, so I'm not going to rattle on about that too much. I think the best chance of getting a new sedan here is either the c2 Mondeo, some sort of mustang sedan, or a Lincoln ev of some sort. That middle one has apparently been planned for quite some time, and some of Lincoln's people have implied EVs may allow Lincoln to make a new sedan in the relatively near future. 

 

But all three of those seem like a long shot sadly. I don't see mustang production moving to Mexico, and I have a hard time seeing how the mustang ev and mach-e would share the same platform. Unless the mach-e gen 2 platform is getting a massive, and I mean massive increase in terms of it's performance capabilities. So I have a hard time believing these rumors as it is. 

[Footballfan]

End of the decade?  I think that you could make a case for any plant closing by then.  I read someplace that the Mustang EV is slated for Flat Rock.  Moving the Mustang to Mexico would be a PR issue- it is one of Ford's last remaining iconic vehicles.  This is not to mention the issues it would create with the UAW.  I am sure additional product for Flat Rock will be discussed during the UAW/Ford talks this summer.

[Footballfan]

8 hours ago, akirby said:

Can’t build anything taller than a sedan and it’s outdated and only builds mustangs.  I expect it to become an EV plant.  Move Mustang to CAP or some other plant.

Flat Rock had product pulled from them twice in recent years.  The Mach E (moved to Mexico instead) and later the Electric Explorer/Navigator (moved to OHAP) was supposed to be built there.  Both times a new paint shop was to be built.  The last proposed new paint shop's permit was pulled a day after the last contract was ratified.  The UAW rolled over on that one ?.   Hopefully with a new UAW president elected by the members there will be more of a push for new product at FRAP.  Hey, if Ford can spend $750 million on a train station and $3 billion on a new assembly plant they really do not need, they can afford a billion to retool Flat Rock.

[akirby]

6 hours ago, Footballfan said:

$3 billion on a new assembly plant they really do not need,

Surely you jest…

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Surely you jest…

Honestly, I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong. If the plan all along is/was to move Mustang to Louisville I don’t really see why that couldn’t have been done for the S650 launch then renovate FRAP. If the goal was for one big complex like BOC will be, there’s plenty of unused land on the FRAP site for a battery plant between the mostly unused test track and the rail yard.

 

BTW I went on a bike ride with a friend who’s a Ford engineer and asked him if it would be feasible for MAP to build Mustang and while he didn’t flat out say no, it would greatly limit the output of that plant because of how drastically different the BOF and unibody construction processes is. When I brought up Wixom his response was that’s why it closed, it was too inefficient in spite of how profitable the plant itself was. I only mention it because you and I have had this discussion before. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Honestly, I don’t think he’s necessarily wrong. If the plan all along is/was to move Mustang to Louisville I don’t really see why that couldn’t have been done for the S650 launch then renovate FRAP. If the goal was for one big complex like BOC will be, there’s plenty of unused land on the FRAP site for a battery plant between the mostly unused test track and the rail yard.

 

BTW I went on a bike ride with a friend who’s a Ford engineer and asked him if it would be feasible for MAP to build Mustang and while he didn’t flat out say no, it would greatly limit the output of that plant because of how drastically different the BOF and unibody construction processes is. When I brought up Wixom his response was that’s why it closed, it was too inefficient in spite of how profitable the plant itself was. I only mention it because you and I have had this discussion before. 

Not sure Louisville has room today for mustang until existing products drop off or escape gets moved or cancelled.  I also think Ford is/was contemplating converting it to BEV.  They change plans constantly.

 

But I assume the $3B unnecessarily factory he referenced was BOC and it’s absolutely needed for BEVs.

[ausrutherford]

The demise of FR comes up every couple years. Here is why it stays...

 

1. Ford won't allow the Mustang to move outside the State of Michigan.

2. Keeping an assembly plant in Michigan is essential for pride and for the state government. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

Not sure Louisville has room today for mustang until existing products drop off or escape gets moved or cancelled.  I also think Ford is/was contemplating converting it to BEV.  They change plans constantly.

Sure they do, they still haven’t brought back 3rd shift. 

 

2 hours ago, akirby said:

But I assume the $3B unnecessarily factory he referenced was BOC and it’s absolutely needed for BEVs.

And my point was if Mustang was put in Louisville that money could have gone into FRAP instead. Maybe timing wasn’t in their favor for that. 

 

1 hour ago, ausrutherford said:

The demise of FR comes up every couple years. Here is why it stays...

 

1. Ford won't allow the Mustang to move outside the State of Michigan.

Throughout its life Mustang was also built in California and New Jersey as well as Dearborn before it was all consolidated into Flat Rock. 
 

1 hour ago, ausrutherford said:

2. Keeping an assembly plant in Michigan is essential for pride and for the state government. 

This just doesn’t make any sense. There’s 2 other assembly plants in Michigan, in addition to 2 transmission plants, an axle plant, a forging plant, a standalone stamping plant and a parts plant, and that’s not including the battery plant being built on the west side of the state.

Pride has zero to do with it on the state level or they would have at least made an attempt to get BOC built here instead of just letting Tennessee have it. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by fuzzymoomoo

[silvrsvt]

16 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Throughout its life Mustang was also built in California and New Jersey as well as Dearborn before it was all consolidated into Flat Rock. . 

 

 

But how Ford did things 50-60 years ago doesn't really have much bearing on how things are done today either. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

And my point was if Mustang was put in Louisville that money could have gone into FRAP instead. Maybe timing wasn’t in their favor for that. 

That would still cost $3B or close to it.  

[Footballfan]

4 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Sure they do, they still haven’t brought back 3rd shift. 

 

And my point was if Mustang was put in Louisville that money could have gone into FRAP instead. Maybe timing wasn’t in their favor for that. 

 

Throughout its life Mustang was also built in California and New Jersey as well as Dearborn before it was all consolidated into Flat Rock. 
 

This just doesn’t make any sense. There’s 2 other assembly plants in Michigan, in addition to 2 transmission plants, an axle plant, a forging plant, a standalone stamping plant and a parts plant, and that’s not including the battery plant being built on the west side of the state.

Pride has zero to do with it on the state level or they would have at least made an attempt to get BOC built here instead of just letting Tennessee have it. 

Stellantis has four assembly plants in Michigan and currently produces more vehicles in Michigan than Ford.  If FRAP closes, Ford could be producing more vehicles in Kentucky than Michigan.  Dont think for a second that is not lost on the government of Michigan or the UAW.  I think FRAP and LAP will be issues in the contract talks especially since Fordcis starting to import vehicles from China.  I would not be surprised to see major investments negotiated for both plants this round of contract talks. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

That would still cost $3B or close to it.  

I know. It’s an either/or situation. I’m not trying to suggest they do both as much as I would like to see it. 

[Footballfan]

If Ford management was smart (and that is a big "if" based on what we have seen the past 25 years), they would pattern FRAP like the Corvette plant in Bowling Green.  Construct a Mustang Musem, and have buyers be able to watch their Mustang be built and have a spin on the test track out back.  This may actually bump up Mustang sales in the process.

[Oac98]

On 7/15/2023 at 12:18 PM, ausrutherford said:

The demise of FR comes up every couple years. Here is why it stays...

 

1. Ford won't allow the Mustang to move outside the State of Michigan.

2. Keeping an assembly plant in Michigan is essential for pride and for the state government. 

They have three assembly plants in Michigan .  I don’t want to see anymore plants close. When I seen they started to build BOC I said to myself there will be some older plant closures in the future. I hope im wrong. 

[ice-capades]

3 hours ago, Oacjay98 said:

They have three assembly plants in Michigan .  I don’t want to see anymore plants close. When I seen they started to build BOC I said to myself there will be some older plant closures in the future. I hope im wrong. 

 

Ford knows better than they're revealing at this point what they expect their future plant needs to be as they continue the transition to BEV vehicle production. We'll know a lot more about Ford's facility plans after the next UAW contract is in place, strike or not. The UAW will demand union status for future facilities to protect union jobs knowing that BEV vehicle production is less labor intensive as the transition continues. The two-tier pay scale will be history as Ford and the other OEM's cave into the UAW demands on the issue. 

 

There hasn't been a major UAW strike in decades and since then the OEM's have basically given the UAW what it wants with minor revisions to reach a settlement in order to avoid a strike or one that was only short term. The new UAW president wants nothing more than a strike with his stated aggressive stance on contract conditions. The biggest concession that Ford and the other OEM's granted was the profit-sharing bonuses being paid which was a major mistake. Labor contracts traditionally cover wages, benefits, pension and other benefits that are negotiated. Profit sharing is another subject and shouldn't be part of the UAW agreement. If employees, hourly or salaried, want to share in the company profits, let them invest their own money in the company by purchasing the company stock. But now that the profit-sharing bonus payments are in place, the OEM's will never get out of it.

 

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not anti-union to any degree. I was a Business Agent for a major theatrical union for years. 

 

    

[fuzzymoomoo]

1 hour ago, ice-capades said:

But now that the profit-sharing bonus payments are in place, the OEM's will never get out of it.

I remember back in 2008-2010 the same was said about COLA and pensions and that was given up by the union. Any hourly worker hired post-2010 doesn’t have a pension and everyone lost COLA. 

[Footballfan]

5 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

Ford knows better than they're revealing at this point what they expect their future plant needs to be as they continue the transition to BEV vehicle production. We'll know a lot more about Ford's facility plans after the next UAW contract is in place, strike or not. The UAW will demand union status for future facilities to protect union jobs knowing that BEV vehicle production is less labor intensive as the transition continues. The two-tier pay scale will be history as Ford and the other OEM's cave into the UAW demands on the issue. 

 

There hasn't been a major UAW strike in decades and since then the OEM's have basically given the UAW what it wants with minor revisions to reach a settlement in order to avoid a strike or one that was only short term. The new UAW president wants nothing more than a strike with his stated aggressive stance on contract conditions. The biggest concession that Ford and the other OEM's granted was the profit-sharing bonuses being paid which was a major mistake. Labor contracts traditionally cover wages, benefits, pension and other benefits that are negotiated. Profit sharing is another subject and shouldn't be part of the UAW agreement. If employees, hourly or salaried, want to share in the company profits, let them invest their own money in the company by purchasing the company stock. But now that the profit-sharing bonus payments are in place, the OEM's will never get out of it.

 

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not anti-union to any degree. I was a Business Agent for a major theatrical union for years. 

 

    

Keep in mind that there's a new sheriff in town at the UAW.  The UAW president is now elected by the membership, not appointed.  In the past the general consensus was that the UAW was too much in bed with Ford management, and was just a rubber stamp to Ford's contract proposals.  Last time there was a challenge at the onset to pass the proposed agreement.  This time, if the membership does not like tge contract, they'll take it out on UAW president Fain the next time he's up for election. Thus, I don't think you'll see a contract with any plant closings. 

[ice-capades]

4 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

I remember back in 2008-2010 the same was said about COLA and pensions and that was given up by the union. Any hourly worker hired post-2010 doesn’t have a pension and everyone lost COLA. 

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[Oac98]

6 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

Ford knows better than they're revealing at this point what they expect their future plant needs to be as they continue the transition to BEV vehicle production. We'll know a lot more about Ford's facility plans after the next UAW contract is in place, strike or not. The UAW will demand union status for future facilities to protect union jobs knowing that BEV vehicle production is less labor intensive as the transition continues. The two-tier pay scale will be history as Ford and the other OEM's cave into the UAW demands on the issue. 

 

There hasn't been a major UAW strike in decades and since then the OEM's have basically given the UAW what it wants with minor revisions to reach a settlement in order to avoid a strike or one that was only short term. The new UAW president wants nothing more than a strike with his stated aggressive stance on contract conditions. The biggest concession that Ford and the other OEM's granted was the profit-sharing bonuses being paid which was a major mistake. Labor contracts traditionally cover wages, benefits, pension and other benefits that are negotiated. Profit sharing is another subject and shouldn't be part of the UAW agreement. If employees, hourly or salaried, want to share in the company profits, let them invest their own money in the company by purchasing the company stock. But now that the profit-sharing bonus payments are in place, the OEM's will never get out of it.

 

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not anti-union to any degree. I was a Business Agent for a major theatrical union for years. 

 

    

I’ve been watching Shawn Fein speak and I believe with his aggressive stance there will be a UAW strike at atleast one if not all the companies. We workers do deserve more and I hope gains are made. I would prefer a favourable agreement that avoids going on strike. I have heard minimal from Unifor whom as you know is up for a new contract this year as well. Fein said he would even be willing to target all 3 we shall see but I believe stellantis will be the target 

[Oac98]

7 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

Ford knows better than they're revealing at this point what they expect their future plant needs to be as they continue the transition to BEV vehicle production. We'll know a lot more about Ford's facility plans after the next UAW contract is in place, strike or not. The UAW will demand union status for future facilities to protect union jobs knowing that BEV vehicle production is less labor intensive as the transition continues. The two-tier pay scale will be history as Ford and the other OEM's cave into the UAW demands on the issue. 

 

There hasn't been a major UAW strike in decades and since then the OEM's have basically given the UAW what it wants with minor revisions to reach a settlement in order to avoid a strike or one that was only short term. The new UAW president wants nothing more than a strike with his stated aggressive stance on contract conditions. The biggest concession that Ford and the other OEM's granted was the profit-sharing bonuses being paid which was a major mistake. Labor contracts traditionally cover wages, benefits, pension and other benefits that are negotiated. Profit sharing is another subject and shouldn't be part of the UAW agreement. If employees, hourly or salaried, want to share in the company profits, let them invest their own money in the company by purchasing the company stock. But now that the profit-sharing bonus payments are in place, the OEM's will never get out of it.

 

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not anti-union to any degree. I was a Business Agent for a major theatrical union for years. 

 

    

I also believe Ford has some investments carrots to dangle up their sleeve as well to be revealed at contract time.

[fuzzymoomoo]

41 minutes ago, Oacjay98 said:

I have heard minimal from Unifor whom as you know is up for a new contract this year as well.

Im not surprised. I know I’ve heard fuck-all out of UNIFOR ever since Jerry Dias retired. 

[Oac98]

3 minutes ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

Im not surprised. I know I’ve heard fuck-all out of UNIFOR ever since Jerry Dias retired. 

UAW will lead Unifor will follow lol. They’ve been way too quiet for my liking. Hope they don’t fold up like a cheap tent!