What happened to EVs? The sudden slowdown in electric car sales is a symptom of a much uglier problem

[Deanh]

1 hour ago, mackinaw said:

Back to the original topic, one more reason that the EV's are struggling is that they do not like the cold weather.  The midwest has been experiencing bitter cold temperatures for the past several days.  It's so cold the batteries on some Tesla's  won't accept a charge and others take hours to charge, that is if the charger works.  Read more here:  Chicago-area Tesla charging stations lined with dead cars in freezing cold: 'A bunch of dead robots out here'

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here

yep...they wont take a charge unless pre-conditioned ( warmed up basically ) ....which requires some sort of charge either remaining or avail ...... 

Edited January 17 by Deanh

[jpd80]

17 minutes ago, Deanh said:

yep...they wont take a charge unless pre-conditioned ( warmed up basically ) ....which requires some sort of chage either remaining or avail ...... 

The joys of electric vehicle ownership. People have enough problems with ICEs  parked out in the open in the freezing cold. I wonder how many folks with BEVs will have a change of heart if they get bit by a dead car because of the cold weather…..

Edited January 17 by jpd80

[HotRunrGuy]

22 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

The joys of electric vehicle ownership. People have enough problems with ICEs  parked out in the open in the freezing cold. I wonder how many folks with BEVs will have a change of heart if they get bit by a dead car because of the cold weather…..

 

As akirby has often said, there must be an awful lot of folks with BEV's that don't have the ability to charge at home, and rely on charging stations when needed.

 

HRG

[Deanh]

46 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

As akirby has often said, there must be an awful lot of folks with BEV's that don't have the ability to charge at home, and rely on charging stations when needed.

 

HRG

anyone that lives in an apartment complex or isnt the owner of the premise they reside in....its just one issue but all the inherrant weakness's coming to light will do anything BUT promote BEV sales....part of me wants to scream "told you so....." I weighed one myself...the technology right now is far from prime time unless you check some pretty stringent boxes. I have the solar ( although curiously my bills have gone up close to 500% over the last 5 -6 years ) but if you didnt thats a 20-30k investment, I have a panel that wouldnt need upgrading (  another 2 =-3k if necessary )  let alone the procharge station plus install ( approx another 2k ) But even having the charging ability there were other issues that refrained me from making the leap...resale and Insurance were two others...

Edited January 17 by Deanh

[jpd80]

35 minutes ago, Deanh said:

anyone that lives in an apartment complex or isnt the owner of the premise they reside in....its just one issue but all the inherrant weakness's coming to light will do anything BUT promote BEV sales....part of me wants to scream "told you so....." I weighed one myself...the technology right now is far from prime time unless you check some pretty stringent boxes. I have the solar ( although curiously my bills have gone up close to 500% over the last 5 -6 years ) but if you didnt thats a 20-30k investment, I have a panel that wouldnt need upgrading (  another 2 =-3k if necessary )  let alone the procharge station plus install ( approx another 2k ) But even having the charging ability there were other issues that refrained me from making the leap...resale and Insurance were two others...

When you think of all the added complication, it’s just easier to go buy a gasoline vehicle and fill it up every few days..

[silvrsvt]

Counterpoint to the Tesla/Chicago story

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2024/01/17/yes-evs-had-trouble-charging-in-chicago-cold-no-it-wasnt-entirely-their-fault

 

boils down to EVs being a hot button topic that gets lots of advertising dollars. 

[Captainp4]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Saw charging difficulties in Chicago reported on national news yesterday.  There were lots of pissed drivers waiting for hours.  I’d bet some/many of those will not buy BEVs for next vehicle.

That was a charging station issue from my understanding, nothing to do with BEV vs ICE. Similar to running out of gas pulling into a gas station that was down.
 

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Over a week without power after hurricanes a few times.  Basic needs become a big deal.  Once storm passes, it can be quite sunny — which is worse due to heat.

Again, if you size the system appropriately for your own use case solar and battery storage are great options.
 

2 hours ago, Deanh said:

yep...they wont take a charge unless pre-conditioned ( warmed up basically ) ....which requires some sort of charge either remaining or avail ...... 

They will take a charge without preconditioning, just slower. If you use the software they provide you with it plans your route and starts preconditioning at the appropriate time before you even get to the charger to maximize efficiency.
 

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The joys of electric vehicle ownership. People have enough problems with ICEs  parked out in the open in the freezing cold. I wonder how many folks with BEVs will have a change of heart if they get bit by a dead car because of the cold weather…..

Range is objectively affected by cold weather, though it's much less of an issue if you have home charging and can tell it from your phone to precondition and be ready to go before you wake up.


Again, I feel like this is the 30th time I've said this, but nothing I own isn't a v8 ICE currently .. I just don't like FUD and miss rperez ?

[Rick73]

52 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

That was a charging station issue from my understanding, nothing to do with BEV vs ICE. Similar to running out of gas pulling into a gas station that was down.

The report and people they briefly questioned or interviewed either said or implied that the extreme cold made charging so slow that cars backed up in line for up to 6 hours to get in.  Problem is magnified by drivers having to run electric heat while waiting in line to stay warm, and also by vehicle having to use battery energy to warm  battery.

[HotRunrGuy]

1 hour ago, Captainp4 said:

That was a charging station issue from my understanding, nothing to do with BEV vs ICE. Similar to running out of gas pulling into a gas station that was down.

 

 

It wasn't just one location,,,,,

 

https://electrek.co/2024/01/16/dead-tesla-cars-pile-up-chicago-superchargers-extreme-cold/

 

HRG

[akirby]

This magnifies the problem with having to rely on public charging especially in cold weather.  Increasing the number of BEVs only makes it worse.  This is why home charging is so important.

[Deanh]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

This magnifies the problem with having to rely on public charging especially in cold weather.  Increasing the number of BEVs only makes it worse.  This is why home charging is so important.

and the percentage of people actually owning or being able to afford those homes is declining significantly....( at least in California ) 

Edited January 17 by Deanh

[fordmantpw]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

This magnifies the problem with having to rely on public charging especially in cold weather.  Increasing the number of BEVs only makes it worse.  This is why home charging is so important.

 

Exactly! We wouldn't have a Mach-E if we couldn't charge it at home.

 

We've got about 2500 miles on it so far, and have used public chargers twice, both on a trip to "the city" (STL).  The first charge was at a free public charger (L2, slow), the second was at a fast charger.  Neither was a problem, we just had to walk a little farther to the stores we were going to.  It's wonderful not having to go to gas stations, especially when it's so freaking cold out!

[Deanh]

2 hours ago, Captainp4 said:

That was a charging station issue from my understanding, nothing to do with BEV vs ICE. Similar to running out of gas pulling into a gas station that was down.
 

Again, if you size the system appropriately for your own use case solar and battery storage are great options.
 

They will take a charge without preconditioning, just slower. If you use the software they provide you with it plans your route and starts preconditioning at the appropriate time before you even get to the charger to maximize efficiency.
 

Range is objectively affected by cold weather, though it's much less of an issue if you have home charging and can tell it from your phone to precondition and be ready to go before you wake up.


Again, I feel like this is the 30th time I've said this, but nothing I own isn't a v8 ICE currently .. I just don't like FUD and miss rperez ?

theres all that complication ( I wont mention affordability regarding storage batteries etc ) jpd80 was talking about...which is somewhat ironic given the more current generations ( read unlike dinosaurs like myself right? )  are ALL about conveinience and not having to make much of an effort.... ( it can all be done from my cell phone right? )...

Edited January 17 by Deanh

[Deanh]

1 hour ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

It wasn't just one location,,,,,

 

https://electrek.co/2024/01/16/dead-tesla-cars-pile-up-chicago-superchargers-extreme-cold/

 

HRG

I didnt even know/ read about Chicago...just reading about the Texas shit show...which seems to becoming a yearly issue ...

[Deanh]

26 minutes ago, fordmantpw said:

 

Exactly! We wouldn't have a Mach-E if we couldn't charge it at home.

 

We've got about 2500 miles on it so far, and have used public chargers twice, both on a trip to "the city" (STL).  The first charge was at a free public charger (L2, slow), the second was at a fast charger.  Neither was a problem, we just had to walk a little farther to the stores we were going to.  It's wonderful not having to go to gas stations, especially when it's so freaking cold out!

maybe that will be the next GOVT push to bolster going BEV rather than a tax inbcentive....Buy a Mach E get a free house.....lol....

Edited January 17 by Deanh

[Rick73]

6 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Saw charging difficulties in Chicago reported on national news yesterday.  There were lots of pissed drivers waiting for hours.  I’d bet some/many of those will not buy BEVs for next vehicle.

Follow-up story today had one driver state he was trading BEV for gas vehicle.  He had enough because “time is money”.  News also stated a BEV could lose up to 41% range when temperature drops to 20 F. 

[HotRunrGuy]

2 hours ago, Deanh said:

maybe that will be the next GOVT push to bolster going BEV rather than a tax inbcentive....Buy a Mach E get a free house.....lol....

 

And the grand prize on Wheel of Fortune tonight was a Grabber Blue Mach E,,,,

 

No thanks, I'll take the cash   Hahahaha, HRG

Edited January 18 by HotRunrGuy

[Captainp4]

15 hours ago, Deanh said:

theres all that complication ( I wont mention affordability regarding storage batteries etc ) jpd80 was talking about...which is somewhat ironic given the more current generations ( read unlike dinosaurs like myself right? )  are ALL about conveinience and not having to make much of an effort.... ( it can all be done from my cell phone right? )...

Like I said, I don't own one yet, but my understanding is that it's all done automatically based on how you set it up.. sounds more convenient to me than walking outside in freezing temps to start the ol diesel 30 minutes before I leave so I have an ounce of heat when I get in lol...  and yes, can be changed/controlled with your smart phone.

My experience with solar/storage/inverter in the RV style setup is that it was pretty cheap and paying for itself quickly.. and very easy to setup - it has options to control from your phone, but I found it was setup how I needed it out of the box and never even installed the app, but you can monitor status of it as well with your phone if you feel the need. Whole home setups are obviously going to be pricier, but haven't gotten that far myself yet.

[Captainp4]

20 hours ago, Rick73 said:

The report and people they briefly questioned or interviewed either said or implied that the extreme cold made charging so slow that cars backed up in line for up to 6 hours to get in.  Problem is magnified by drivers having to run electric heat while waiting in line to stay warm, and also by vehicle having to use battery energy to warm  battery.

 

20 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

It wasn't just one location,,,,,

 

https://electrek.co/2024/01/16/dead-tesla-cars-pile-up-chicago-superchargers-extreme-cold/

 

HRG

Don't know if I'm getting too far off topic here, but I'll admit I just assumed those stories were just another hit piece on EVs and kind of scrolled past, but watching this video right now and this guy seems to usually have a pretty fair assessment of the situation from what I've watched of him. Sounds like a myriad of separate issues culminating in a real world problem. I was not aware that cold weather affected the chargers as well, so I learned something!
 

 

[Rick73]

Pretty much everything he said in that video, and much more,  has been known for a very long time.  Some choose to ignore reality hoping it won’t bite them, while others don’t know better or care to learn.

[jpd80]

It’s not just that you lose total range in the freezing cold, the battery must also be kept warm and that’s where the parasitic power loss comes when left out in the open on a street. It’s one thing to think you have enough charge left to make it to a charge station and then discover that the battery has been significantly drained because it needs to stay at a certain temperature….

[akirby]

1 hour ago, jpd80 said:

It’s not just that you lose total range in the freezing cold, the battery must also be kept warm and that’s where the parasitic power loss comes when left out in the open on a street. It’s one thing to think you have enough charge left to make it to a charge station and then discover that the battery has been significantly drained because it needs to stay at a certain temperature….

Anybody who owns an EV in the cold North without a home charger or alternate vehicle is crazy.  

[silvrsvt]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Anybody who owns an EV in the cold North without a home charger or alternate vehicle is crazy.  

 

If your only commuting to work 10-20 miles to work either. 

 

Doesn't seem to impact sales in Norway either, but I also don't have a clue as to how they are charging either. 

There is a lot of FUD going around and whenever there is a problem a giant microscope gets focused on it because it's such a push button topic that  brings in a lot of views.

[mackinaw]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

Doesn't seem to impact sales in Norway either, but I also don't have a clue as to how they are charging either. 

 

One reason EV's sell so well in Norway is because of their aggressive EV subsidies:

 

The Norwegian EV incentives:

• No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25% VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over
• No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021. Full tax from 2022.
• No charges on toll roads (1997- 2017).
• No charges on ferries (2009- 2017).
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018)
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2018-2022). From 2023 70%
• Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
• Access to bus lanes (2005-). New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016-)
• 25% reduced company car tax (2000-2008). 50% reduced company car tax (2009-2017). Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-2021) and 20 percent from 2022.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015-)
• The Norwegian Parliament decided on a national goal that all new cars sold by 2025 should be zero-emission (electric or hydrogen) (2017).
• «Charging right» for people living in apartment buildings was established (2017-)
• Public procurement: From 2022 cars needs to be ZEV. From 2025 the same applies to city buses

 

 

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, mackinaw said:

One reason EV's sell so well in Norway is because of their aggressive EV subsidies:

I expect part of what drives subsidies is that most of their electricity comes from hydropower, and they use electricity for pretty much everything.  Also doesn’t hurt they have a fairly high standard of living.