Despite the bad press, half of America is still considering an EV or hybrid — they just want them to be cheaper

[silvrsvt]

https://www.autoblog.com/2024/01/25/despite-the-bad-press-half-of-america-is-still-considering-an-ev-or-hybrid-car-they-just-want-them-to-be-cheaper/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016&fbclid=IwAR2iTPQ73O81H7mlSJ0PbvbNaem8Tnpq7gcLuBJvlyqG6iaiHrzF8hFy8qw_aem_AfIliP0PZCNi9C5jM5v2Wsl74g8mg4C0bGujWXJHrpZLYYrDLpChbJabdTIV6G1WoYY

[rmc523]

I want to know how that survey was conducted....

 

Asking "would you consider an EV OR hybrid (as the article implies) is going to produce a FAR different (and more favorable) answer than "would you consider an EV" and "would you consider a hybrid" as their own questions.

[DeluxeStang]

This is the brilliance of Ford's areo oriented strategy. Everyone else is gonna be making bricks with 150 KWH battery packs charging $50,000 and Ford's gonna be over there with eye catching sleek designs with a 100 KWH battery pack, comparable range, and a $45,000 price. 

 

The shape of the three row under the tarp is starting to grow on me. Maybe it'll be a bit like the 80s Tarus all over again. Everything else looking like a block, and Ford comes out with this striking space age design that is disliked initially due to how unusual it is, but later goes on to become a trend setter. 

Edited January 25 by DeluxeStang

[Rick73]

IMO it’s not as much about industry not listening to potential buyers as much as industry can’t meet their wants or needs at price buyers are willing to pay.  People want EVs that are much lower in cost than what industry can manufacture for a given type of car (with content buyers want).

 

Buyer reluctance could possibly apply to ICE also because in some cases costs are way higher than buyers can justify.  I can only speak for myself, but when shopping for a new plain cargo van and prices start as high or higher than a Tesla Y, or many other nice and well-equipped SUVs, I feel Ford and RAM are being short-sighted because of shortages.  It’s their right to charge whatever they want, but bad will they are creating isn’t going to help their brands long-term IMO.

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

This is the brilliance of Ford's areo oriented strategy. Everyone else is gonna be making bricks with 150 KWH battery packs charging $50,000 and Ford's gonna be over there with eye catching sleek designs with a 100 KWH battery pack, comparable range, and a $45,000 price. 

 

The shape of the three row under the tarp is starting to grow on me. Maybe it'll be a bit like the 80s Tarus all over again. Everything else looking like a block, and Ford comes out with this striking space age design that is disliked initially due to how unusual it is, but later goes on to become a trend setter. 

 

Ha.  I'll believe that when I see it....

[akirby]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

This is the brilliance of Ford's areo oriented strategy. Everyone else is gonna be making bricks with 150 KWH battery packs charging $50,000 and Ford's gonna be over there with eye catching sleek designs with a 100 KWH battery pack, comparable range, and a $45,000 price. 

I agree this is what they’re trying to do and if they can pull it off it’s great.  But it needs to be closer to $10k cheaper for the same range or twice the range for the same price.  And the styling has to be appealing.  It can’t be ugly.

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

Ha.  I'll believe that when I see it....

The mach-e starts at around 44k. Ford has straight up said these second generation platforms which save them billions of dollars long term. Their entire strategy for reducing battery size is to bring the cost down, for themselves, and consumers alike. 

 

If they can't match where they're currently at after moving to far more cost effective platforms and a radically different approach which was all about saving cost, then someone is getting fired. 

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

I agree this is what they’re trying to do and if they can pull it off it’s great.  But it needs to be closer to $10k cheaper for the same range or twice the range for the same price.  And the styling has to be appealing.  It can’t be ugly.

Based on how it's been described, it's weird and very futuristic looking, but that doesn't mean ugly necessarily. It apparently looks like this in SUV form. I could see how that would take some getting used to, but it's not terrible, at least it's not just generic. 

 

Edit: I'm currently waiting on someone, so I sketched up my interpretation of what a modern rover sd1 front end with Ford design language would look like, this is what I came up with. Not gonna lie, it's unusual, but if the actual front end is close to that, it's kinda endearing in a 80s retro throwback kind of way. 

 

People who've actually seen the design will have to tell me if I'm close or not to the real deal. 

Edited January 26 by DeluxeStang

[Oac98]

6 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

This is the brilliance of Ford's areo oriented strategy. Everyone else is gonna be making bricks with 150 KWH battery packs charging $50,000 and Ford's gonna be over there with eye catching sleek designs with a 100 KWH battery pack, comparable range, and a $45,000 price. 

 

The shape of the three row under the tarp is starting to grow on me. Maybe it'll be a bit like the 80s Tarus all over again. Everything else looking like a block, and Ford comes out with this striking space age design that is disliked initially due to how unusual it is, but later goes on to become a trend setter. 

Do I ever hope your theory proves correct! 

[tbone]

It’s too bad they didn’t have a hybrid version of the MME, as I think it would sell quite well. I’ve had quite a few compliments on my MME regarding its style, more so than the fact it’s a BEV. It is a nice vehicle, aside from its range limitations, which could have been solved by a hybrid powertrain.  

[lfeg]

I would consider an EV when there is one that would fully replace my current car or pickup. In range, capability (for my pickup that means a true 8 foot bed) and cost.

[Tico]

Cost and charging have always been the issue. I know the average transaction in the US is almost $48K but most people are looking for $30K to $45K out the door. Mach E might start at $44K but how many sales are actaully the base model? Try to even find one at that price. Ordering and waiting months is not always an option. The other problem is charging. In countries like Norway where BEV sales are a large porstion of the market, home charging is very common. But considering the cost to install 40A curcuit and charger in garage, its a hard sell. The goverment subsidies if you can even get them, are income limited so if you quailify for help with cost of the electrical upgrades, you are likely not able to afford the vehicle itself. So bottom line BEV is still a luxury vehicle except maybe the Bolt which is going away for a while I think. 

 

Hybrids are much more promising for this reason. I love my Escape Hybrid and would upgrade myll Mustang ecoboost if a hybrid version became available. Not interested in V8 hybrid Mustang because of cost and whats the point the ecoboost would still use less gas. 

 

New battery and platform tech will get us there but we are still many years away from mass market BEVs. Until then hybrids could fill the gap and plug in hybrids could get people used to plugging in if they actualy use the plug. 

 

I make good money but can't see the need to spend more that  30K to 40K on a vehicle when there are so many decent options in that price range. Initial cost is the problem. Also cost of setting up home charging more so than public charging stations which cost too much per kwh anyway.

[silvrsvt]

21 minutes ago, Tico said:

New battery and platform tech will get us there but we are still many years away from mass market BEVs. Until then hybrids could fill the gap and plug in hybrids could get people used to plugging in if they actualy use the plug. 

 

Here is the problem that everyone forgets-decisions where made 3-4 years ago that are just finally hitting the market now. There isn't going to be a wholesale change long term because of the planning and spooling up production for different vehicles.

 

AFAIK, Hybrid/PHEV batteries are different then EV batteries and I don't think the battery plants being built now will be able to support those type of batteries due to expected profit margins of building batteries for EVs and I'm not sure where Ford could buy additional batteries for P/HEVs to support more models. 

 

Furthermore, only the Ranger/Bronco and Bronco Sport doesn't have an P/HEV option...the BS is low lying fruit since the HEV system from the Escape and Maverick would be able to used and I'm curious if the new Explorer will get a new hybrid system in the shape of the HEV 2.3L Ecoboost system that is going into the ROW Ranger. If that happens, the Ranger and Bronco would be a no brainer to get a HEV then. The Transit doesn't have a Hybrid option, but I'm wondering how much of a market actually exists for that and plus you have an EV version. 

 

Speaking of EVs, a coworker of mine who works 90% remote came over with his Bolt...he was telling me on our trip he uses Level 1 charging to charge it at home! He said he doesn't drive that much and I think his wife has an ICE to get this kids around but I was flabbergasted with that info...I told him our local utility company has incentives/rebates to get level 2 installed if he wanted. 

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, Tico said:

But considering the cost to install 40A curcuit and charger in garage, its a hard sell. 

My electrical panel is in attached garage, and I was able to add 50A circuit (not for EV) with very little cost.  Didn’t even take that long.  I also helped family member install a few 50A in his garage for EV charging (one used now and others for future) and that didn’t cost much either.  Granted, in many areas DIY electrical of this type is not allowed AFAIK.

 

Anyway, even 15A X 120 VAC can provide enough slow charging for a car like BOLT to charge around 4 miles of range per hour of charging.  For vehicles that stay in garage plugged in most of the day, that can provide quite a bit of driving.  Owners who are retired or those who work from home, or have short commutes to work, can probably get at least 50 miles of charge daily from Level 1.  For a second car used mostly for short local trips, that would be far more than I would need on average.  Even if you drive longer on one day, it just means the next day you start with battery less than 100% charged, which may not be an issue if vehicle has over 200 miles of total range.

[HotRunrGuy]

42 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

My electrical panel is in attached garage, and I was able to add 50A circuit (not for EV) with very little cost.  Didn’t even take that long.  I also helped family member install a few 50A in his garage for EV charging (one used now and others for future) and that didn’t cost much either.  Granted, in many areas DIY electrical of this type is not allowed AFAIK.

 

 

Aren't these EV's coming with the Nema 14-50 pigtail anymore?  While a dedicated charger would be faster, this would certainly suit my needs.

 

HRG

[Rick73]

3 hours ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

Aren't these EV's coming with the Nema 14-50 pigtail anymore?  While a dedicated charger would be faster, this would certainly suit my needs.

 

HRG

 

In my son’s case, the Tesla 3 required a very small wall charger to be mounted in garage.  He had to buy that charger separately (but wasn’t too expensive), which plugs into 50A, and operates at 32 Amps.  It can also operate on 40A breaker I suppose.  He also got a portable charger to leave in car in case he wanted to charge at my house by using an adaptor, or anywhere else in case of emergency.  AFAIK, he hasn’t needed it.  The home charger provides him over 20 miles of range per hour of charging, so car essentially remains topped off in garage by plugging overnight.

 

I’m not sure how other chargers install, because I’ve read that some permanently-installed chargers do not require a neutral.  I honestly don’t recall if his portable unit can be used without a neutral by using an adaptor, but think it may work OK.   I think the charger only uses 240 VAC, and no 120 VAC if I recall correctly, but not sure.  Below is one Tesla recommendation.  I’m aware some home chargers can now go above 50A (80A IIRC) but that’s probably overkill for most owners unless they drive a BEV that uses a lot of power/energy.  An F-150 that towed daily (like lawn service truck), as example, may benefit from faster charging.

 

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/en_CA/CA-EN_NEMA_14-50_Installation_Guide.pdf

[Captainp4]

15 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

 

In my son’s case, the Tesla 3 required a very small wall charger to be mounted in garage.  He had to buy that charger separately (but wasn’t too expensive), which plugs into 50A, and operates at 32 Amps.  It can also operate on 40A breaker I suppose.  He also got a portable charger to leave in car in case he wanted to charge at my house by using an adaptor, or anywhere else in case of emergency.  AFAIK, he hasn’t needed it.  The home charger provides him over 20 miles of range per hour of charging, so car essentially remains topped off in garage by plugging overnight.

 

I’m not sure how other chargers install, because I’ve read that some permanently-installed chargers do not require a neutral.  I honestly don’t recall if his portable unit can be used without a neutral by using an adaptor, but think it may work OK.   I think the charger only uses 240 VAC, and no 120 VAC if I recall correctly, but not sure.  Below is one Tesla recommendation.  I’m aware some home chargers can now go above 50A (80A IIRC) but that’s probably overkill for most owners unless they drive a BEV that uses a lot of power/energy.  An F-150 that towed daily (like lawn service truck), as example, may benefit from faster charging.

 

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/en_CA/CA-EN_NEMA_14-50_Installation_Guide.pdf

From what I've learned "researching" the Lightning, it comes with the truck charge port on one end, 30a if I'm remembering correctly, and two pigtails that you can plug into it, either the 14-50 pictured or a standard 120 plug. There's an option for a higher amp charger as well that can go up to 80a. Amp numbers might be off, but it's something like that. From what I've gathered the lower amp one is intended to be mobile so you can charge anywhere while the bigger one is meant to stay where you charge.

[silvrsvt]

A pretty decent article

Why major car manufacturers are slowing production of electric vehicles

 

Geoff Bennett:

In the meantime, the Biden administration announced they're going to invest 325 million more dollars in programs that would advance E.V. technology. They'd repair some chargers and they would cut battery costs overall.

How far will that go toward making E.V.s more affordable and more accessible?

 

Jessica Caldwell:

There needs to be a lot of investment in this. And it's a lot of investment in different areas. It's not even about batteries becoming more efficient and spending all of that money to get that going.

It is also about infrastructure. It is about better charging. It is about fixing current infrastructure. So, as we move towards this, it's definitely not simple, easy, straightforward. There needs to be automakers, the government, everyone working in concert to get this whole thing moving along, because it's not just one party.

And asking people to commit to buying a new vehicle that is an E.V. when not everything is necessarily functioning at 100 percent is going to be a challenge. And that's always what we're hearing from consumers. They're worried about range. They're worried about their battery. They're worried about infrastructure and charging. And that freedom just to go wherever you want to go may be limited.

And I think that's what scares people, even if it's not something that they even do once a year. It's the idea. And I think that's very American of us. That idea that you just can go somewhere is preventing you from buying this vehicle. And it happens all the time.

[Rick73]

Unless people embrace efficiency so that manufacturers can therefore do the same, it’s going to be an uphill battle for BEVs to become much more affordable.  Cheaper batteries alone won’t solve the proven because it will lead to even less efficient BEVs in effort to extend range, and that also adds to charging times and greater demand on grid.
 

Not saying manufacturers need to get to extremes Mercedes accomplished with Vision EQXX, but it demonstrates that “real” vehicles could be far more efficient at extracting range out of limited battery capacity.  And it will make charging faster and less costly to upgrade grid.

Mercedes accomplished over 7 miles per kWh in reaching 737 miles during an actual road trip.   Again, that’s an extreme case in a prototype, but even 5 miles/kWh in a production car should lead to cheaper and more practical BEVs.  I think the future Tesla Model 2 Redwood may be in that 5+ range by using some of the same design features as Vision EQXX but keeping vehicle more ordinary and affordable.  IMO it will take a successful and lower-cost people’s electric car to start changing minds and expectations.

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercedes/353356/mercedes-vision-eqxx-extends-all-electric-record-747-miles

[silvrsvt]

18 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Not saying manufacturers need to get to extremes Mercedes accomplished with Vision EQXX, but it demonstrates that “real” vehicles could be far more efficient at extracting range out of limited battery capacity.  And it will make charging faster and less costly to upgrade grid.

 

But the problem is the styling of the EQXX is going to turn off people, just look at the reaction of the IONIQ 6 or the upcoming Ford 3 row crossover styling which is somewhat similar and a lot of people are going to be turned off by it. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's going to sell. Having an expectation of 500 miles of range is ridiculous, since most cars only get 400-300 miles per tank. 

 

What it boils down to is charging needs to become faster (say 80% in 20 minutes or less from under 10%) and ubiquitous as filling your car up with gas. So having a range in most temp ranges of 200-300 miles isn't a huge issue if you can charge it almost anywhere...that would help with the battery size issue.

 

The other way to look at this is that demographically, the car buying public is going to get greyer as time goes on and thus more hesitant to change. Younger generations are smaller and often aren't as interested in driving either, which is going to impact how much "change" is acceptable in styling.