Toyota Q1 2024 Sales Results

[rmc523]

[Andrew L]

I am surprised they are selling as many Crowns as they are.  

[atomcat68]

5 hours ago, Andrew L said:

I am surprised they are selling as many Crowns as they are.  

I'm not. Toyota is the only one I can think of that makes a large IC engine sedan so it's the only place for the customer to go.

 

The sedan buyers that Ford, GM, and others abandoned had to go somewhere. It's like minivans. If everyone made them, then they would be spread thin, but the 4 brands that still make minivans do decently with them. Sedans are kind of the same. There is demand, but not enough for everyone, but when the herd is culled a bit, the ones left over do well.

 

[twintornados]

I seriously considered a Crown as my next daily as I yearn to get back into a sedan, but at the end of the day, I just couldn't pull the trigger to buy a Toyota....I hope Ford (or Lincoln) will bring back a proper sedan.

[Andrew L]

On 4/5/2024 at 2:01 PM, atomcat68 said:

I'm not. Toyota is the only one I can think of that makes a large IC engine sedan so it's the only place for the customer to go.

 

The sedan buyers that Ford, GM, and others abandoned had to go somewhere. It's like minivans. If everyone made them, then they would be spread thin, but the 4 brands that still make minivans do decently with them. Sedans are kind of the same. There is demand, but not enough for everyone, but when the herd is culled a bit, the ones left over do well.

 

 

Yea but it's not really a sedan it's like a crossover sedan.  It's very strange.  I saw one on the dealer lot when I was helping my friend search for a new car.  They are pretty tall especially when you compare it to the Avalon it replaced.

[silvrsvt]

I've seen 2 crowns, but it was down in VA on 95. Don't recall seeing any of them locally. 

[AM222]

On 4/10/2024 at 9:56 PM, Andrew L said:

 

Yea but it's not really a sedan it's like a crossover sedan.  It's very strange.  I saw one on the dealer lot when I was helping my friend search for a new car.  They are pretty tall especially when you compare it to the Avalon it replaced.

The Avalon at 56.5 inches tall (about 0.4in lower than a Camry) was pretty low by modern sedan standards, it's just 1.5in taller than an S650 Mustang GT.

Here's something interesting, it turns out the Crown (crossover sedan) is 60.6 inches tall. For reference, the last Taurus sold in the US is 60.7 inches tall. Tall, but not crazy tall.



Toyota still makes the conventional Camry sedan which is just under 57 inches tall.


As a longtime fan of Fords, seeing them sacrifice mainstream volume models to keep the company in the black worries me sometimes. 

Aside from that, Ford is the most recalled brand three years in a row. Ford should solve this problem instead of just killing off their models (not unless they think less models equals less recalls). 

But on the bright side, I'm glad the Mustang and Bronco exist.
 

Edited April 12 by AM222

[Andrew L]

54 minutes ago, AM222 said:

The Avalon at 56.5 inches tall (about 0.4in lower than a Camry) was pretty low by modern sedan standards, it's just 1.5in taller than an S650 Mustang GT.

Here's something interesting, it turns out the Crown (crossover sedan) is 60.6 inches tall. For reference, the last Taurus sold in the US is 60.7 inches tall. Tall, but not crazy tall.



Toyota still makes the conventional Camry sedan which is just under 57 inches tall.


As a longtime fan of Fords, seeing them sacrifice mainstream volume models to keep the company in the black worries me sometimes. 

Aside from that, Ford is the most recalled brand three years in a row. Ford should solve this problem instead of just killing off their models (not unless they think less models equals less recalls). 

But on the bright side, I'm glad the Mustang and Bronco exist.
 

 

The 6th gen Taurus hid it pretty well probably because of the low roofline and slim side glass.  Also ground clearance appears a lot lower.  Crown looks jacked up in comparison, but I agree.

5th gen Taurus/Five Hundred look really tall but probably because of the huge side glass.  It was a large sedan either way but the illusion of how they style it does make a huge difference on how they appear to the eye.

 

I do wish Ford still offered at least 1 sedan in the lineup.  Leaving those markets just seems like giving up to me.  I know sedan sales aren't what they used to be but if they can still make a Mondeo in other markets it seems like making a Fusion still for our market would help offset the cost of the platform and the model itself.  Plus, it would give the opportunity of Lincoln still having a sedan in the lineup which to me seems sacrilegious to not have at least 1 considering the brands history.  

 

But I get it Ford is a business and they only want to sell stuff that makes huge profits anything less isn't worth their time. 

[AM222]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

But I get it Ford is a business and they only want to sell stuff that makes huge profits anything less isn't worth their time. 

I"m sure Toyota is a business too. Having a full range of vehicles allows Toyota to be strong globally (the development cost of a model is spread across all units sold sround the world). Ford's streamlined lineup also means it has less vehicles it can market outside North America.

 

 

 

Edited April 12 by AM222

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, AM222 said:

I"m sure Toyota is a business too. Having a full range of vehicles allows Toyota to be strong globally (the development cost of a model is spread across all units sold sround the world). Ford's streamlined lineup also means it has less vehicles it can market outside North America.

 

 

 

 

I've long said they already did the work for Mondeo and Zephyr for overseas....just import medium to high trim models only (no low trims) and keep prices up that way.

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

I've long said they already did the work for Mondeo and Zephyr for overseas....just import medium to high trim models only (no low trims) and keep prices up that way.

The fact they already have a vehicle and space at Flat Rock says the ROI must be terrible.

 

GM and Toyota have always valued volume over margins while Ford is the opposite here lately.  GM and Toyota definitely have lower costs so their ROI is batter on individual vehicles.  Ford wasted a lot of money developing so many new platforms and engines recently - some of which were discarded.  And we know about warranty costs.  When you keep things longer and don’t develop as many new things your cost tends to stay much lower.

[rmc523]

32 minutes ago, akirby said:

The fact they already have a vehicle and space at Flat Rock says the ROI must be terrible.

 

GM and Toyota have always valued volume over margins while Ford is the opposite here lately.  GM and Toyota definitely have lower costs so their ROI is batter on individual vehicles.  Ford wasted a lot of money developing so many new platforms and engines recently - some of which were discarded.  And we know about warranty costs.  When you keep things longer and don’t develop as many new things your cost tends to stay much lower.

 

But I wonder if it's that or if it's more that they don't want to backtrack on the "all things trucks and SUVs, no sedans" mantra to prove they're right?

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

But I wonder if it's that or if it's more that they don't want to backtrack on the "all things trucks and SUVs, no sedans" mantra to prove they're right?

They never said that as far as I know.  Thats what the people said who prefer cars.

 

And I’ll keep saying this every time it comes up.  They did not simply decide to cancel Fusion.  They needed space for Maverick and Bronco Sport and Hermosillo made the most sense.  They did not just cancel it and close the factory.  Without the new vehicles they’d still be in production.  Same for Focus at MAP.  Now Taurus and Continental were killed due to poor sales.  Fiesta and Ecosport were just terrible products.

[MadManMoon]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Fiesta and Ecosport were just terrible products.

I'll give you the awful EcoSport, but the Fiesta (minus the terrible DCT) was one of the best small cars out there, especially the ST. I still miss that car!

[akirby]

12 hours ago, MadManMoon said:

I'll give you the awful EcoSport, but the Fiesta (minus the terrible DCT) was one of the best small cars out there, especially the ST. I still miss that car!

I meant in terms of it being too small for this market and not generating much revenue or profit.  

[DeluxeStang]

On 4/5/2024 at 12:01 PM, atomcat68 said:

I'm not. Toyota is the only one I can think of that makes a large IC engine sedan so it's the only place for the customer to go.

 

The sedan buyers that Ford, GM, and others abandoned had to go somewhere. It's like minivans. If everyone made them, then they would be spread thin, but the 4 brands that still make minivans do decently with them. Sedans are kind of the same. There is demand, but not enough for everyone, but when the herd is culled a bit, the ones left over do well.

 

This is why IMO, Ford should reconsider jumping back into the sedan market. Their strategy to pivot away from cars and towards utilities was brilliant 5 years ago. Back then, everyone was making sedans, and relatively few brands were making affordable aspirational utilities, so things like the BS and maverick really appealed to buyers, because it was something no-one else was offering. 

 

But now, the compact and midsized crossover segments are oversaturated, and many of Ford's rivals have followed their lead and abandoned sedan buyers. I sense opportunity for ford here if they can do something unique, not maverick or bronco sport levels of opportunity, but opportunity nonetheless. 

 

Imagine if they leveraged their small affordable EV platform to offer some sort of sedan. Not a generic blob, I'm thinking more along the lines of a new escort, with sporty styling that's a throwback to the gen 1 escorts or something with around 200 hp. 

[DeluxeStang]

On 4/12/2024 at 2:36 PM, akirby said:

They never said that as far as I know.  Thats what the people said who prefer cars.

 

And I’ll keep saying this every time it comes up.  They did not simply decide to cancel Fusion.  They needed space for Maverick and Bronco Sport and Hermosillo made the most sense.  They did not just cancel it and close the factory.  Without the new vehicles they’d still be in production.  Same for Focus at MAP.  Now Taurus and Continental were killed due to poor sales.  Fiesta and Ecosport were just terrible products.

With the uncertain future of the three rows, I wonder if Ford will cancel them, and build CE1 EVs at Oakville instead. It sounds like they're more promising, and would offer a better ROI than some funky looking overpriced mess of an EV. I could be mistaken, but I believe that plant was scheduled to build 5 different ev models at one point, so they're confident that Oakville wouldn't have issues producing large quantities of EVs. Maybe one of those could be some sort of sedan, allowing Ford to re-enter the sedan market without overtaxing any particular plant. 

[AM222]

On 4/14/2024 at 10:52 AM, DeluxeStang said:

many of Ford's rivals have followed their lead and abandoned sedan buyers.

Very true for most American brands. Ford's Japanese and Korean rivals still make compact and mid-size sedans. 

 

Edited April 22 by AM222

[Chrisgb]

47 minutes ago, AM222 said:

Very true for most American brands. Ford's Japanese and Korean rivals still make compact and mid-size sedans. 

 

I found it Ironic that shortly after the Focus was discontinued, Toyota announced they were doing a $170M expansion at TMMMS to increase Corolla production

[CKNSLS]

13 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

I found it Ironic that shortly after the Focus was discontinued, Toyota announced they were doing a $170M expansion at TMMMS to increase Corolla production

There was no irony-it's Toyota. They are all in on hybrids-and look at the EV market stagnating. Toyota as a company is brilliant.

[akirby]

22 hours ago, Chrisgb said:

I found it Ironic that shortly after the Focus was discontinued, Toyota announced they were doing a $170M expansion at TMMMS to increase Corolla production

Seems short sighted based on sales which have been steadily declining.

 

[akirby]

11 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

Delete post, misunderstood the chart

Sorry first column was Japan.

[silvrsvt]

Not to mention $170 million isn't really that much-Ford is investing roughly that in multiple subassembly plants (engines/transmission) with the new UAW contract.