Focus and fiesta may return as affordable evs

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

Offer the right form factor for the market, and buyers will go with "small".

 

As you point out, if a "small" vehicle is a Fiat 500 or smart car, it'll fail immediately.  But if it's something many already buy like Escape/BS, it has a chance to do well, if offered at a reasonable pricepoint.

Offered at a reasonable price is a big sticking factor. The teams developing this platform need to be laser focused on that objective. It seems like they are with reports that it's the most cost efficient EV platform ever designed. 

 

The issue is brands add stupid shit that jacks up the price. Some idiot is gonna see a reasonably priced CE1 BS or maverick, and then tell the team it needs the latest, most advanced driverless tech, or 30 way adjustable seats. No, make it basic, make it cheap, but give it a personality.

 

Cheap, reliable, but fun cars are a segment that brands have mostly moved on from. Ford can leverage this platform to get back to that. 

[Rick73]

9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

People quickly forget that Tesla had a base model 3 price of $36K that it basically refused to make

because it took away manufacturing space for higher profit versions. To this day, Tesla has shown

hints of some $25k price point that many should take with a grain of salt. By the time the first CE1

arrives in 2027, the starting price is probably going to be mid $40K……

You are correct in that base Model 3 had a “reported” 50 kWh battery with about 220 miles of range, but there was so much demand for Model 3s when they came out, that Tesla could not make them fast enough IIRC.  Because of that, they did what most manufacturers would do and built higher-cost variants with greater profit margins.

 

I was recently at my local Honda dealer and saw the 2025 Civic, which seems to be a lot of car for just under $30k.  If the new Ford skunkworks compact EV ends up in the mid $40s, I fear it will be DOA.  Cost parity with ICEV is needed badly, or few will buy EVs given their many drawbacks.  BEVs certainly have many advantages over ICEVs, but I don’t see much future for Fiesta- or Focus-size vehicles if cost is around $45k in today’s USD.  Granted, using Fiesta or Focus name doesn’t preclude larger vehicles.

 

Farley did mention at one time that the skunkworks vehicle would target the Tesla Model 2, and if true, would make it somewhat smaller than a Tesla Model 3.  “Affordable” EV will likely require some downsizing IMO provided we are talking +/- $30k base cost.

[silvrsvt]

45 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Cheap, reliable, but fun cars are a segment that brands have mostly moved on from. Ford can leverage this platform to get back to that. 

 

Because they didn't sell or they got bought by older people with more expendable cash (Scion and the Honda Element are prime examples of this from the past 20 years)

 

Part of the problem is that the vehicle buying experience has fundamentally moved on. This isn't the 1970/80s where a car was lucky to last 100-150K and they where replaced every 5 years or so. So if you made something fun like a Van, Personal coupe or some other dead segment from the past, it wasn't a big deal. 

 

That is why you see people buying CUVs or Pickups-they are buying Swiss army knives of vehicles. Younger people aren't as interested in cars, not to mention they have much different world to live in vs what we had 30-40 years ago, where cars aren't as important and they have helicopter parents that take them every where. 

[akirby]

21 hours ago, AM222 said:

The only old wet clutch PowerShift in Europe and Asia was the one paired with the TDCi (diesel) engine (like on the Mk2 Focus TDCi). The Powershift on the newer gasoline powered Fiesta, pre-facelift Focus Mk3, and pre-facelift Ecosport was a dry clutch and it was a known issue with reports of transmission failures (particularly on the Fiesta and Focus).

That appears to be correct.  I don’t know where I got the idea they used wet clutch in Europe but I know we discussed it back then.

[rmc523]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

Offered at a reasonable price is a big sticking factor. The teams developing this platform need to be laser focused on that objective. It seems like they are with reports that it's the most cost efficient EV platform ever designed. 

 

The issue is brands add stupid shit that jacks up the price. Some idiot is gonna see a reasonably priced CE1 BS or maverick, and then tell the team it needs the latest, most advanced driverless tech, or 30 way adjustable seats. No, make it basic, make it cheap, but give it a personality.

 

Cheap, reliable, but fun cars are a segment that brands have mostly moved on from. Ford can leverage this platform to get back to that. 

 

I don't see a problem with offering those items as options that bump up the price at the top end.  The key is to be able to package enough content into the affordable model to hook buyers, like they've done with Maverick.

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

That appears to be correct.  I don’t know where I got the idea they used wet clutch in Europe but I know we discussed it back then.

Ford Europe moved to a 7-speed wet clutch DCT with the 1.0 EB, there may be others but that’s the one I know.

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Because they didn't sell or they got bought by older people with more expendable cash (Scion and the Honda Element are prime examples of this from the past 20 years)

 

Part of the problem is that the vehicle buying experience has fundamentally moved on. This isn't the 1970/80s where a car was lucky to last 100-150K and they where replaced every 5 years or so. So if you made something fun like a Van, Personal coupe or some other dead segment from the past, it wasn't a big deal. 

 

That is why you see people buying CUVs or Pickups-they are buying Swiss army knives of vehicles. Younger people aren't as interested in cars, not to mention they have much different world to live in vs what we had 30-40 years ago, where cars aren't as important and they have helicopter parents that take them every where. 

I respectfully disagree that no-one wants to buy fun, affordable, and reliable small cars. That describes the maverick and bronco sport to a T.

 

Many of the failures with small, affordable cars, has to do with mind numbing product decisions which hamper it's appeal. A product designed to appeal to younger buyers is sold exclusively with a stick shift that no young people know how to drive, a car pitched as a fun exciting product becomes a dull production design with bland materials and colors, something originally intended to be affordable increases in price by 10 grand because it's loaded up with unnecessary tech. That sort of thing. 

 

When a brand strives to create aspirational affordable products in desirable segments, and actually delivers, it often finds success. 

 

 

 

[akirby]

2 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Ford Europe moved to a 7-speed wet clutch DCT with the 1.0 EB, there may be others but that’s the one I know.

Pretty sure the 1.0eb used the 6F15.  The diesels used the 7 spd wet clutch DCT IIRC.

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

You are correct in that base Model 3 had a “reported” 50 kWh battery with about 220 miles of range, but there was so much demand for Model 3s when they came out, that Tesla could not make them fast enough IIRC.  Because of that, they did what most manufacturers would do and built higher-cost variants with greater profit margins.

 

I was recently at my local Honda dealer and saw the 2025 Civic, which seems to be a lot of car for just under $30k.  If the new Ford skunkworks compact EV ends up in the mid $40s, I fear it will be DOA.  Cost parity with ICEV is needed badly, or few will buy EVs given their many drawbacks.  BEVs certainly have many advantages over ICEVs, but I don’t see much future for Fiesta- or Focus-size vehicles if cost is around $45k in today’s USD.  Granted, using Fiesta or Focus name doesn’t preclude larger vehicles.

 

Farley did mention at one time that the skunkworks vehicle would target the Tesla Model 2, and if true, would make it somewhat smaller than a Tesla Model 3.  “Affordable” EV will likely require some downsizing IMO provided we are talking +/- $30k base cost.

Indeed, you make some good points.

Clearly, a $30,000 Ford BEV is out of reach today so it’s hard for me to imagine that by 2027, the price on a compact BEV will start at $25k.

I’m willing to be proven wrong on this but it just feels like Ford is selling a lot of blue sky to match Tesla 2 claims….

Edited August 6 by jpd80

[akirby]

1 minute ago, DeluxeStang said:

I respectfully disagree that no-one wants to buy fun, affordable, and reliable small cars. That describes the maverick and bronco sport to a T.

 

Many of the failures with small, affordable cars, has to do with mind numbing product decisions which hamper it's appeal. A product designed to appeal to younger buyers is sold exclusively with a stick shift that no young people know how to drive, a car pitched as a fun exciting product becomes a dull production design with bland materials and colors, something originally intended to be affordable increases in price by 10 grand because it's loaded up with unnecessary tech. That sort of thing. 

 

When a brand strives to create aspirational affordable products in desirable segments, and actually delivers, it often finds success. 

 

 

 

 

We’ve said this before but bears repeating.  Sedan form factors are very limiting in style and options compared to trucks and utilities.  Can’t jack up the suspension with big tires.  Can’t add offroad accessories.  Can’t tow very much.  
 

More importantly the market for cheaper sedans is based mostly on price.  Give me the cheapest thing that gets me from point a to point b.  They don’t care much about style of fancy features.  Some do but is it enough to support a vehicle with enough volume to make a profit at lower margins?  Maybe.  I think it comes down to being super cost efficient and doing as much as you can to differentiate without losing too much volume or killing margins.

[Harley Lover]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

IFord is selling a lot of blue sky to match Tesla 2 claims….

 

I don't think Tesla are the bogey any more, China Inc. are the bogey now.

[akirby]

Farley has clearly said $25k - $30k for the skunkworks EVs.  I don’t know why you guys keep saying $40k.

[ice-capades]

13 minutes ago, akirby said:

Farley has clearly said $25k - $30k for the skunkworks EVs.  I don’t know why you guys keep saying $40k.

 

Quite frankly, I'll believe it when we see it, especially since these EVs probably won't go into production for at least another 2 years. Farley keeps making references to the secretive (understood), dedicated "Skunkworks" project but we won't know how much of it is more hype than substance until we see something that can be directly identified and credited to it along with the promised cost savings and quality impact.  

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

We’ve said this before but bears repeating.  Sedan form factors are very limiting in style and options compared to trucks and utilities.  Can’t jack up the suspension with big tires.  Can’t add offroad accessories.  Can’t tow very much.  
 

More importantly the market for cheaper sedans is based mostly on price.  Give me the cheapest thing that gets me from point a to point b.  They don’t care much about style of fancy features.  Some do but is it enough to support a vehicle with enough volume to make a profit at lower margins?  Maybe.  I think it comes down to being super cost efficient and doing as much as you can to differentiate without losing too much volume or killing margins.

Which is why there isn't a super compelling business case for a ICE powered sedan in Ford's lineup. The only real exception to that would be if they did something that commanded a premium, like a mustang sedan or maybe some sort of Lincoln, something with a thicker profit margin. 

 

The only reason I really proposed a CE1 EV car form factor, beyond my own selfish desires, is because EV profitability is largely dictated by battery size. Smaller batteries as we know are less expensive, which makes it easier to turn a profit on the EVs that use them. But small batteries only offer great range if you have decent areo. It's easier to create a good looking, yet aerodynamic car than it is to create an areo dynamic utility or truck. 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, ice-capades said:

 

Quite frankly, I'll believe it when we see it, especially since these EVs probably won't go into production for at least another 2 years. Farley keeps making references to the secretive (understood), dedicated "Skunkworks" project but we won't know how much of it is more hype than substance until we see something that can be directly identified and credited to it along with the promised cost savings and quality impact.  

The skunkworks is 2 years old already.  I think they already know exactly what they’re building and what it should cost.  New batteries are a huge part.  Of course things could change in the next 2 years or things dont work out the way they’re expecting.  
 

I expect 3d printing including metal parts, cheaper smaller lighter batteries, simpler assembly process, more in sourced parts and more software control.  I can see a $25k 250 mile range small vehicle based on today’s prices.

[morgan20]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

Sedan form factors are very limiting in style and options compared to trucks and utilities.  Can’t jack up the suspension with big tires.  Can’t add offroad accessories.  Can’t tow very much. 

 

Also Ford sedans in particular have not had a good reputation for over 25 years. Almost all of those products have been boring anonymous blobs that didn't stand out in any meaningful way. Most Ford hatchbacks other than really low production models like Focus RS were the same.

 

The big shots at Ford want their future affordable EV to stand out in terms of style and options so they can compete against the Chinese. No Fiesta or Focus like vehicle is going to do that

[tbone]

On 8/1/2024 at 10:42 AM, Harley Lover said:

 

Didn't they also have a supply contract with an outside firm (ZF?) for which they were obligated to take x amount of trannys for x amount of years?

Just catching up here, perhaps Ford should have sued the manufacturer (ZF/Getrag) for breach of contract for providing a faulty product that damaged their reputation and cost a shit load of money.  Unless it was Fords spec that caused the problems?   They should’ve ate all of them because in the end it probably would’ve been cheaper. I’m pretty confident Ford knew they are putting a garbage transmission in those vehicles, so either way it’s on them. 

Edited August 7 by tbone

[tbone]

Probably not the best place to slap this European explorer EV test, but I thought it was somewhat relevant to this conversation due to its size being similar to the Focus.   This is the first test I had read about this EV and it seems like a decent product, however it’s not particularly upscale, its is a compact vehicle, and it’s about $30,000 too expensive.  Trimming $30,000 from this size of vehicle must be massively challenging.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2024/07/28/test-driving-the-ford-explorer-an-affordable-electric-ford-at-last/

 

 

 

 

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

The skunkworks is 2 years old already.  I think they already know exactly what they’re building and what it should cost.  New batteries are a huge part.  Of course things could change in the next 2 years or things dont work out the way they’re expecting.  
 

I expect 3d printing including metal parts, cheaper smaller lighter batteries, simpler assembly process, more in sourced parts and more software control.  I can see a $25k 250 mile range small vehicle based on today’s prices.

Hold onto that dream of an affordable BEV, it’s a noble goal to strive for.

The MEB based BEVs just launching in Europe are near double that price.

(or is that an indictment of just how bad VW ED is and how far out they are)

 

I’m very skeptical of a company that changes plans every couple of years,

not calling Farley a liar here, I know he is very optimistic and everything 

has to drop perfectly Ford’s way for this to work. I hope it does.

 

 

Edited August 7 by jpd80

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, tbone said:

Just catching up here, perhaps Ford should have sued the manufacturer (ZF/Getrag) for breach of contract for providing a faulty product that damaged their reputation and cost a shit load of money.  Unless it was Fords spec that caused the problems?   They should’ve ate all of them because in the end it probably would’ve been cheaper. I’m pretty confident Ford knew they are putting a garbage transmission in those vehicles, so either way it’s on them. 

Ah but see there’s a catch….

 

this from a post on BON back in 2019:

 

DPS6 DRY dual clutch 6DCT250 Powershift transmission -While the base design is Getrag’s, the finished transmission bears the stamp of TDE (Ford Motor Company Transmission and Driveline Engineering) engineers. 
Ford dictated the relevant specifications such as the package envelope, center distance, gear ratios and functional SDS requirements. 
(Ford)TDE have, for example, full responsibility for calibration and for software development. 
As a result, (Ford) TDE has more control over how the product drives and feels. 
While Getrag markets its own version of this transmission, the Ford DPS6 Powershift is differentiated by its software and controls.
Ford Motor Company
Transmission and Driveline Engineering (TDE)
36200 Plymouth Road 
Livonia, MI. 48150

I don't believe Ford Europe had their hands in this soup

[ice-capades]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

The skunkworks is 2 years old already.  I think they already know exactly what they’re building and what it should cost.  New batteries are a huge part.  Of course things could change in the next 2 years or things don't work out the way they’re expecting.  
 

I expect 3d printing including metal parts, cheaper smaller lighter batteries, simpler assembly process, more in sourced parts and more software control.  I can see a $25k 250 mile range small vehicle based on today’s prices.

 

I understand your point and can admire the desired objectives, but Ford has a very long history of constantly reinventing the wheel. Although we're all anxious to finally see substantial, definitive improvement on vehicle quality issues as an example, it's been a major issue at Ford for decades. So, after more than 35 years dealing with Ford, I'll patiently wait to see what actually happens. A major factor is the corporate culture at Ford with short sighted decisions designed to prioritize career longevity rather than what's best for the company long term. The corporate mandated expenses imposed on Dealers and the deteriorating dealership relations are a different subject altogether.    

[rmc523]

12 hours ago, akirby said:

Farley has clearly said $25k - $30k for the skunkworks EVs.  I don’t know why you guys keep saying $40k.

 

Tesla promised $35k and then dropped it.

 

They may achieve a $25-30k base model, but like Maverick, I'm sure it'll be offered in limited quantities for model year, and then quietly dropped because of "sales" and then bam, the new base model is $34k that creeps up yearly beyond that (with fewer features in the typical Ford fashion).

[silvrsvt]

12 hours ago, akirby said:

Farley has clearly said $25k - $30k for the skunkworks EVs.  I don’t know why you guys keep saying $40k.

 

In the grand scheme of things how are they going to sell something that costs less then a Maverick does at a profit? Even with all the different possible tech increases, raw materials costs still have to be covered etc...that is a bit of a hill to climb

 

You can get a Maverick starting at what, 25-27K? But the vast majority of them at the local Ford dealerships are in the mid to high 30K range?

 

Thus my comments about it being actually closer to 40K price point for a non compromised product (i.e. short range)

I was checking out the specs for the BYD Seagull which is the cheap EV that seems to come up in this conversation for a cheap EV and its complete non-starter for the NA market. 

[akirby]

10 hours ago, morgan20 said:

 

Also Ford sedans in particular have not had a good reputation for over 25 years. Almost all of those products have been boring anonymous blobs that didn't stand out in any meaningful way. Most Ford hatchbacks other than really low production models like Focus RS were the same.

 

The big shots at Ford want their future affordable EV to stand out in terms of style and options so they can compete against the Chinese. No Fiesta or Focus like vehicle is going to do that

I agree except for Fusion.  1st Gen was good, 2nd Gen was and still is the best looking midsized family sedan out there.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, tbone said:

Just catching up here, perhaps Ford should have sued the manufacturer (ZF/Getrag) for breach of contract for providing a faulty product that damaged their reputation and cost a shit load of money.  Unless it was Fords spec that caused the problems?   They should’ve ate all of them because in the end it probably would’ve been cheaper. I’m pretty confident Ford knew they are putting a garbage transmission in those vehicles, so either way it’s on them. 

The suppliers do pay part or all of the costs for faulty parts in most cases based on their contracts.  However a big part of the problem is Ford exceeded the recommended torque with the 2.0L engine.  My guess is Ford and Getrag split the warranty costs if there were product flaws and not just the engine.