Focus and fiesta may return as affordable evs

[mackinaw]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

Going back say 25-30 years..........Five Hundred........

 

The Five Hundred moniker actually has a long history.  There was a Fairlane 500 in the late 50's and the Galaxie 500 in the 60's.  The Five Hundred sedan was a modern play on the number 500.

[ehaase]

43 minutes ago, mackinaw said:

 

The Five Hundred moniker actually has a long history.  There was a Fairlane 500 in the late 50's and the Galaxie 500 in the 60's.  The Five Hundred sedan was a modern play on the number 500.

Also 1964 - 1974 Custom 500 and 1971 Torino 500. But Ford should have used Taurus name for 2005 instead of the Five Hundred name because Taurus was always Ford's largest FWD sedan. 

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, SilverStangO1 said:

I would certainly consider an ICE, EV or Hybrid offering with the Focus name. I think millions would as well. 

 

I think it's a mistake for Ford to abandon this small car segment entirely. Though I'd also like to say the same for another fusion/sedan segment new vehicle, the business case favors the former.

 

I think Ford has to be able to produce a small, profitable world car that sells well. In fact, I'd consider it a business imperative at this point. The market is more competitive than ever. Ford can do it and do it well.

 

P.S. Thanks for listening to the focus tales from a long time lurker. 

 

 

 

There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of car buyers who agree with you. It's funny, we've discussed at length in the past why a gas powered car form factor doesn't really work for Ford. But in terms of profit margins, and long term sustainably, EVs have flipped the script. A 30k electric hatchback with a 50 KWH battery is gonna be more profitable for ford than a 70 grand electric SUV with a 150 KWH battery pack. 

[twintornados]

21 hours ago, akirby said:

Focus did swap the DCT for a traditional 6F tranny in Europe at some point (2015?) but refused to do it here for some reason.

 

The problem with Europe has always been high costs due to massive inefficiencies.

 

They began to put 6F15 autos in Focus here, I remember seeing one on the showroom at my local Ford dealer when I was shopping for my Fusion but by then, it was too late.

[akirby]

7 hours ago, ehaase said:

Also 1964 - 1974 Custom 500 and 1971 Torino 500. But Ford should have used Taurus name for 2005 instead of the Five Hundred name because Taurus was always Ford's largest FWD sedan. 

The problem was they co-existed for a few years with the Taurus being built almost exclusively for rental fleets by then.  One could argue they should have killed the rental version and replaced it with the 500 but kept the name.  But neither one was a very good vehicle.

[akirby]

2 hours ago, twintornados said:

 

They began to put 6F15 autos in Focus here, I remember seeing one on the showroom at my local Ford dealer when I was shopping for my Fusion but by then, it was too late.

I did not remember that.  

[rmc523]

10 hours ago, akirby said:

Remember when Ford was going to kill Taurus and keep the Five hundred?  Mulally said are you insane throwing away such a recognizable name for an anonymous number?  So they kept Taurus.

 

It takes a long time to build up name recognition so you have to take that into account although sometimes a new name is better.

 

Remember how it was spelled out too.  Five Hundred.....not 500.

 

I remember seeing the refreshed Five Hundred at NAIAS in '08 (the 3 bar grille one) before they decided to rename it Taurus.

 

That said, I still think they should have one sedan.  Doing something like an Evos or Mustang sedan would allow them to charge higher prices because they're not a regular sedan.

[silvrsvt]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I did not remember that.  

 

It started in 2016 with the 1.0 Ecoboost and 2L in the Focus....I wasn't aware of it either. 

https://cobratransmission.com/6f15-automatic-transmission-overhaul-rebuild-kit-with-pistons-ford-focus-eco-sport/

 

Ford 6F15 6-Speed Automatic Transmssion Overhaul Rebuild Kit WITH Pistons.

2018 Eco-Sport (3 Cylinder, 1.0L)
2019 Eco-Sport (3 Cylinder, 1.0L)
2020 Eco-Sport (3 Cylinder, 1.0L)
2016 Ford Focus (3 Cylinder 1.0L, 4 Cylinder 2.0L)
2017 Focus (3 Cylinder 1.0L, 4 Cylinder 2.0L)
2018 Focus (3 Cylinder 1.0L, 4 Cylinder 2.0L)

[rmc523]

4 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

It started in 2016 with the 1.0 Ecoboost and 2L in the Focus....I wasn't aware of it either. 

https://cobratransmission.com/6f15-automatic-transmission-overhaul-rebuild-kit-with-pistons-ford-focus-eco-sport/

 

Ford 6F15 6-Speed Automatic Transmssion Overhaul Rebuild Kit WITH Pistons.

2018 Eco-Sport (3 Cylinder, 1.0L)
2019 Eco-Sport (3 Cylinder, 1.0L)
2020 Eco-Sport (3 Cylinder, 1.0L)
2016 Ford Focus (3 Cylinder 1.0L, 4 Cylinder 2.0L)
2017 Focus (3 Cylinder 1.0L, 4 Cylinder 2.0L)
2018 Focus (3 Cylinder 1.0L, 4 Cylinder 2.0L)

 

Just goes to show how much damage was done to its reputation.

[silvrsvt]

15 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Just goes to show how much damage was done to its reputation.

 

I'm not sure how accurate that transmission thing is-I found some old build and price and it seems like the 2.0L is still tied to the Powershift transmission and the 1.0 Ecoboost was on fleet/cheapo Foci only. 

Even on this PDF Ford doesn't call out a different transmission for the 1.0L Ecoboost

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/product/2018/focus/18-focus.pdf

 

But the 1.0L Ecoboost was an option in the Focus SE Sedan for that year. 

[rmc523]

Just now, silvrsvt said:

 

I'm not sure how accurate that transmission thing is-I found some old build and price and it seems like the 2.0L is still tied to the Powershift transmission and the 1.0 Ecoboost was on fleet/cheapo Foci only. 

Even on this PDF Ford doesn't call out a different transmission for the 1.0L Ecoboost

https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/product/2018/focus/18-focus.pdf

 

But the 1.0L Ecoboost was an option in the Focus SE Sedan for that year. 

 

I don't remember there being a change either - I remember us commenting a lot on how they changed it overseas but left it here.

[morgan20]

7 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

I'm not sure how accurate that transmission thing is-I found some old build and price and it seems like the 2.0L is still tied to the Powershift transmission and the 1.0 Ecoboost was on fleet/cheapo Foci only.

 

All 2016-2018 Focus automatics with the German made 1.0L Ecoboost engine used Chinese made 6F15 transmission

 

 

 

[twintornados]

25 minutes ago, morgan20 said:

 

All 2016-2018 Focus automatics with the German made 1.0L Ecoboost engine used Chinese made 6F15 transmission

 

That is what I remember....just like that in good old Utica NY....I bought the Fusion instead.

[Biker16]

On 8/1/2024 at 12:10 AM, Oac98 said:

It was a travesty and I heard workers at the plant addressed there concerns to Ford but it was supposedly too late. Ford proceeded to knowingly launch new products with known major issues. 

 

In hindsight, it was a huge red flag that Ford, knowing how poorly that transmission was performing, continued to make it during the entire model run of the Focus in the United States. A company with a focus on quality would have quickly found another transaxle for that vehicle and not stuck with that transaxle for 8 years, saying that it was not broken.

Edited August 12 by Biker16

[jpd80]

On 8/4/2024 at 2:05 AM, Biker16 said:

 

In hindsight, it was a huge red flag that bored knowing how poorly that transmission was performing? Continue to make it during the entire model run of the focus in the United States. A company with a focus on quality would have quickly found another transaxle for that vehicle. And not stick with that transaxle for 8 years saying that it was not broken.

The irony was that Ford could have opted for a proper JV  6-speed auto like GM did with the Cruze

and avoided the whole problem but Ford Europe refused to alter its design. That’s why Fields doubled down.

The global 1.5 EB and 6F35 was an utter dream to drive in the 2016 global Focus but was too late outside USA.

 

 

 

had convinced itself that the problem was fixable

[AM222]

6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The irony was that Ford could have opted for a proper JV  6-speed auto like GM did with the Cruze

and avoided the whole problem but Ford Europe refused to alter its design. That’s why Fields doubled down.

The global 1.5 EB and 6F35 was an utter dream to drive in the 2016 global Focus but was too late outside USA.

 

 

 

had convinced itself that the problem was fixable

I think this was the beginning of Ford's continuous recalls which include many "safety recalls", though after the PowerShift issue and some belt-in-oil 3-cylinder EB issues, most problems I believe seem to involve North American-built Fords. Fords from Europe and Asia in general seem to have less issues.

I think most if not all Powershift-equipped Fords around the world shared the same Getrag unit made in Mexico, so the problem also affected Fiesta/Focus/EcoSport models built in Europe and Asia.

Ford did something many other automakers avoid... not lubricate its dual clutch transmission and have its timing belt in oil. Ford decided to lubricate the wrong things.

Edited August 5 by AM222

[akirby]

46 minutes ago, AM222 said:

I think most if not all Powershift-equipped Fords around the world shared the same Getrag unit made in Mexico, so the problem also affected Fiesta/Focus/EcoSport models built in Europe and Asia.

Ford did something many other automakers avoid... not lubricate its dual clutch transmission and have its timing belt in oil. Ford decided to lubricate the wrong things.

Europe and Asia never used the dry clutch version.  They used the more durable wet clutch version.  Only NA used the dry clutch (at least not with the larger engines).  The engineers pointed out that the engine was too powerful for the dry clutch but using the wet clutch didn’t meet mpg targets so the managers said F@#$ it and ignored it.

[92merc]

2 hours ago, AM222 said:

 not lubricate its dual clutch transmission and have its timing belt in oil. Ford decided to lubricate the wrong things.

 

The main issue with that system wasn't the belt.  It was the belt tensioner.  That craps out before the belt.  It then shreds the belt.

[AM222]

6 hours ago, akirby said:

Europe and Asia never used the dry clutch version.  They used the more durable wet clutch version.  Only NA used the dry clutch (at least not with the larger engines).  The engineers pointed out that the engine was too powerful for the dry clutch but using the wet clutch didn’t meet mpg targets so the managers said F@#$ it and ignored it.

The only old wet clutch PowerShift in Europe and Asia was the one paired with the TDCi (diesel) engine (like on the Mk2 Focus TDCi). The Powershift on the newer gasoline powered Fiesta, pre-facelift Focus Mk3, and pre-facelift Ecosport was a dry clutch and it was a known issue with reports of transmission failures (particularly on the Fiesta and Focus).

Edited August 5 by AM222

[DeluxeStang]

I think we need to get back on topic guys...

 

The powershift story is interesting, but it deserves it's own thread. 

[Rick73]

On 8/2/2024 at 1:45 AM, DeluxeStang said:

There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of car buyers who agree with you. It's funny, we've discussed at length in the past why a gas powered car form factor doesn't really work for Ford. But in terms of profit margins, and long term sustainably, EVs have flipped the script. A 30k electric hatchback with a 50 KWH battery is gonna be more profitable for ford than a 70 grand electric SUV with a 150 KWH battery pack. 

That’s Farley’s opinion now, but only time will tell if Americans will buy such a vehicle.  His previous assumptions did not prove correct, so he could just as easily be wrong again.  Obviously I’ve thought EVs needed to start small and aero to keep cost low, but such a vehicle may not have much mass demand.

“We have to start to get back in love with smaller vehicles, it’s super important for our society and EV adoption,” added Farley. With models like Ford’s Super Duty requiring batteries that cost $50,000, enormous EVs are “never going to make money,” he said.

 

Regarding vehicle name, IMO a great car can make name valuable (i.e. — Mustang as example), but a valuable name won’t make vehicle great or successful.  In a case like this where Ford is going to a completely different type of vehicle, I doubt name recognition will affect success that much.  The car itself has to be great.  Technically, I think after $7500 credit, your example of a $30K car with 50 kWh battery is very possible.  For reference, the newest Tesla Model 3 RWD Long Range cost $35K after credit, and has 363 miles of range from 82 kWh battery.  Taking another $5K out should be possible with battery reduced from 82 to roughly 50 kWh.

[silvrsvt]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

That’s Farley’s opinion now, but only time will tell if Americans will buy such a vehicle.  His previous assumptions did not prove correct, so he could just as easily be wrong again.  Obviously I’ve thought EVs needed to start small and aero to keep cost low, but such a vehicle may not have much mass demand.

 

The thing is that since EVs have a negative connotations associated with them, people are expecting some "clown car" like a Fiat 500 or something when the word "small" is mentioned.

 

Something roughly in the size range of the C2 (Escape/Bronco Sport/Maverick) will have no issues selling to the American public if the EV versions are almost identical in price to their gas hybrid equivalents. 
 

The other issue is pricing and people assuming what they want vs what they actually need. People don't see to have an issue spending money on a larger product due to perceived needs or wants. You can cart around 2 kids and their gear in an Escape (my sister did that for years) vs buying an Explorer (which she has currently) also, but people think or want that Explorer instead. I think that is what Farley is trying to address. 

As for credits, depending on how things playout, I think expecting them from the government is just going to set Ford up for failure when it comes to price. 

I also see the 30K price point for an EV being somewhat wishful thinking when it comes to consumer-most likely its going to be closer to the 40K mark if you go to a dealership-that model will have a slightly larger battery and longer range. I don't see a 250 mile range car that goes down to say to a sub 200 mile range in the wintertime being popular with buyers, unless it has some tech in it that lets you charge within 10-15 minutes back up to 80 or so percent. 

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The thing is that since EVs have a negative connotations associated with them, people are expecting some "clown car" like a Fiat 500 or something when the word "small" is mentioned.

 

Something roughly in the size range of the C2 (Escape/Bronco Sport/Maverick) will have no issues selling to the American public if the EV versions are almost identical in price to their gas hybrid equivalents. 
 

The other issue is pricing and people assuming what they want vs what they actually need. People don't see to have an issue spending money on a larger product due to perceived needs or wants. You can cart around 2 kids and their gear in an Escape (my sister did that for years) vs buying an Explorer (which she has currently) also, but people think or want that Explorer instead. I think that is what Farley is trying to address. 

As for credits, depending on how things playout, I think expecting them from the government is just going to set Ford up for failure when it comes to price. 

I also see the 30K price point for an EV being somewhat wishful thinking when it comes to consumer-most likely its going to be closer to the 40K mark if you go to a dealership-that model will have a slightly larger battery and longer range. I don't see a 250 mile range car that goes down to say to a sub 200 mile range in the wintertime being popular with buyers, unless it has some tech in it that lets you charge within 10-15 minutes back up to 80 or so percent. 

People quickly forget that Tesla had a base model 3 price of $36K that it basically refused to make

because it took away manufacturing space for higher profit versions. To this day, Tesla has shown

hints of some $25k price point that many should take with a grain of salt. By the time the first CE1

arrives in 2027, the starting price is probably going to be mid $40K……

[silvrsvt]

6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

People quickly forget that Tesla had a base model 3 price of $36K that it basically refused to make

because it took away manufacturing space for higher profit versions. To this day, Tesla has shown

hints of some $25k price point that many should take with a grain of salt. By the time the first CE1

arrives in 2027, the starting price is probably going to be mid $40K……

 

Just with more average levels of inflation (3%), its going to cost at least 1800-2K more from today. 

[rmc523]

12 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

The thing is that since EVs have a negative connotations associated with them, people are expecting some "clown car" like a Fiat 500 or something when the word "small" is mentioned.

 

Something roughly in the size range of the C2 (Escape/Bronco Sport/Maverick) will have no issues selling to the American public if the EV versions are almost identical in price to their gas hybrid equivalents. 
 

The other issue is pricing and people assuming what they want vs what they actually need. People don't see to have an issue spending money on a larger product due to perceived needs or wants. You can cart around 2 kids and their gear in an Escape (my sister did that for years) vs buying an Explorer (which she has currently) also, but people think or want that Explorer instead. I think that is what Farley is trying to address. 

As for credits, depending on how things playout, I think expecting them from the government is just going to set Ford up for failure when it comes to price. 

I also see the 30K price point for an EV being somewhat wishful thinking when it comes to consumer-most likely its going to be closer to the 40K mark if you go to a dealership-that model will have a slightly larger battery and longer range. I don't see a 250 mile range car that goes down to say to a sub 200 mile range in the wintertime being popular with buyers, unless it has some tech in it that lets you charge within 10-15 minutes back up to 80 or so percent. 

 

Offer the right form factor for the market, and buyers will go with "small".

 

As you point out, if a "small" vehicle is a Fiat 500 or smart car, it'll fail immediately.  But if it's something many already buy like Escape/BS, it has a chance to do well, if offered at a reasonable pricepoint.